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Caveman_Nick

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And to be in a league where the members vote out of their self-interest and not what they really believe is complete lunacy. I was in a few public leagues where this happened. I won't be in a public league again. This is a good reason to have a commish with absolute authority.

Actually I think this is (another) good reason to avoid public leagues. Never got the appeal of that anyway.

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In making these judgements, it's very important to look at the whole picture. I believe this was done here.

 

 

No one looked at the whole picture here. That's the whole problem.

 

What happens if the guy who had the 5th rounder for Wayne next year but had the trade denied would have had a rookie RB who turns out to be a future stud RB sitting on the board when he picked? By deciding what is "fair", you've now denied that owner the chance of owning that stud RB as a keeper for that player's career. Exactly how "fair" is that, and how is that looking at the "whole picture"? Does someone in the league have some type of time machine or infallible cystal ball to know what is "fair" and what isn't? And if they do, what the hell are you doing playing in a league with that guy?

 

:shakinghead: Everytime someone tries to defend this type of position, it ends up being a sh*t sandwich for one or more of the owners in a league.

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No one looked at the whole picture here. That's the whole problem.

 

What happens if the guy who had the 5th rounder for Wayne next year but had the trade denied would have had a rookie RB who turns out to be a future stud RB sitting on the board when he picked? By deciding what is "fair", you've now denied that owner the chance of owning that stud RB as a keeper for that player's career. Exactly how "fair" is that, and how is that looking at the "whole picture"? Does someone in the league have some type of time machine or infallible cystal ball to know what is "fair" and what isn't? And if they do, what the hell are you doing playing in a league with that guy?

 

:shakinghead: Everytime someone tries to defend this type of position, it ends up being a sh*t sandwich for one or more of the owners in a league.

 

 

Did you read the original post? The trade happened. The league official just helped it happen in a way that would not torque off the rest of the league as a severely unbalanced trade.

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And if you believe that lopsided trades should be allowed, then what's your beef with the Wayne deal? I don't think that trade is so lopsided so as to be disallowed.

 

 

:D

 

It's not that it was lopsided, it's that the lopsidedness combined with the player for draft pick aspect fit the roster dumping criteria for commish intervention.

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Did you read the original post? The trade happened. The league official just helped it happen in a way that would not torque off the rest of the league as a severely unbalanced trade.

 

 

No, I didn't see a bit of the original post. I just thought I'd pick this thread randomly to vent about a commish doing something that he had no business doing to appease owners who apparently aren't satisfied enough contolling their own teams that they feel the need to control other teams in the league as well. It's just a phenominal coincidence that I happen to be posting in a thread where your original post has to do with irrational meddling in owner transactions.

 

Since you didn't reply to my earlier rebuttal, please allow me to be more direct:

 

How do you, the commish, or any other owners know what the future value of the 5th round pick is going to be? How do you, the commish, or any other owners know how the value of that pick is going to be in comparison to Reggie Wayne's performance next season?

 

Once you answer those, then we'll get to the really juicy questions: What gave anyone the right to force owners to modify the trade that both owners involved in the trade agreed was a fair deal, and why in the world, given the rules of your league, would any owners get torqued off about this trade being severely unbalanced when they have no clue as to how the trade would have shaken out in regard to balance until the following season was over?

Edited by Bronco Billy

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No, I didn't see a bit of the original post. I just thought I'd pick this thread randomly to vent about a commish doing something that he had no business doing to appease owners who apparently aren't satisfied enough contolling their own teams that they feel the need to control other teams in the league as well. It's just a phenominal coincidence that I happen to be posting in a thread where your original post has to do with irrational meddling in owner transactions.

 

Since you didn't reply to my earlier rebuttal, please allow me to be more direct:

 

How do you, the commish, or any other owners know what the future value of the 5th round pick is going to be? How do you, the commish, or any other owners know how the value of that pick is going to be in comparison to Reggie Wayne's performance next season?

 

Once you answer those, then we'll get to the really juicy questions: What gave anyone the right to force owners to modify the trade that both owners involved in the trade agreed was a fair deal, and why in the world, given the rules of your league, would any owners get torqued off about this trade being severely unbalanced when they have no clue as to how the trade would have shaken out in regard to balance until the following season was over?

 

 

But, but ... well ... it just isn't fair ... well, because ... it's Reggie Wayne for God's sake ... DID you see the numbers Wayne put up last year! OMG.

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Once you answer those, then we'll get to the really juicy questions: What gave anyone the right to force owners to modify the trade that both owners involved in the trade agreed was a fair deal, and why in the world, given the rules of your league, would any owners get torqued off about this trade being severely unbalanced when they have no clue as to how the trade would have shaken out in regard to balance until the following season was over?

 

 

The league voted for this. That's what gave the commish the right. Somewhere in the league voting for the commish to block trades that would fit roster dumping criteria, there has to be a judgement by the commish that determines what trades would fit that criteria.

 

Your hypothetical "what of the 80thish pick overall becomes an RB stud is not useful to the scenario. The commish is required to review trades structured in this manner to ensure some level of equity. That's what gives him the right.

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Your hypothetical "what of the 80thish pick overall becomes an RB stud is not useful to the scenario.

 

 

Not useful to the scenario? It's the exact crux of the entire scenario & the entire lynchpin of allowing owners to control each other's trades. No one knows what the value of that 80th pick will be. That's the entire point. If you can't concede this very basic concept, there's no point in pursuing this debate. You guys just go ahead dictating each others' actions. It's already caused significant friction within your league - so much so that you solicited opinions here, some of which apparently you aren't the least bit interested in hearing.

 

My last bit of advice before I move on - not that you'll want it: Change the rule and either omit commish control or don't allow in-season trading for draft picks, or expect a lot more animosity between owners in the league. Something tells me your league ain't seen nothing yet now that you've embarked on the slippery slope. Those two owners who feel they have been accused of collusion probably aren't going to let this go very easily, either now or in future transactions done either by themselves or other owners - and rightfully so, I might add.

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Not useful to the scenario? It's the exact crux of the entire scenario & the entire lynchpin of allowing owners to control each other's trades. No one knows what the value of that 80th pick will be. That's the entire point. If you can't concede this very basic concept, there's no point in pursuing this debate. You guys just go ahead dictating each others' actions. It's already caused significant friction within your league - so much so that you solicited opinions here, some of which apparently you aren't the least bit interested in hearing.

 

My last bit of advice before I move on - not that you'll want it: Change the rule and either omit commish control or don't allow in-season trading for draft picks, or expect a lot more animosity between owners in the league. Something tells me your league ain't seen nothing yet now that you've embarked on the slippery slope. Those two owners who feel they have been accused of collusion probably aren't going to let this go very easily, either now or in future transactions done either by themselves or other owners - and rightfully so, I might add.

 

 

I would tend to agree with this sentiment.

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Not useful to the scenario? It's the exact crux of the entire scenario & the entire lynchpin of allowing owners to control each other's trades. No one knows what the value of that 80th pick will be. That's the entire point. If you can't concede this very basic concept, there's no point in pursuing this debate. You guys just go ahead dictating each others' actions. It's already caused significant friction within your league - so much so that you solicited opinions here, some of which apparently you aren't the least bit interested in hearing.

 

My last bit of advice before I move on - not that you'll want it: Change the rule and either omit commish control or don't allow in-season trading for draft picks, or expect a lot more animosity between owners in the league. Something tells me your league ain't seen nothing yet now that you've embarked on the slippery slope. Those two owners who feel they have been accused of collusion probably aren't going to let this go very easily, either now or in future transactions done either by themselves or other owners - and rightfully so, I might add.

 

 

I am against a commish having the power to flat out veto trades. It's becoming a tougher stance to defend in this league, however. And After this scenario came to pass, I came out in support of the suggestion to not allow trading of draft picks of the people in the league couldn't handle dealing with it.

 

The reason I say that your example is not useful to the scenario is that there was a need for the league officer in this case to make a decision based on criteria that stated that (I am paraphrasing here) a player traded away for a draft pick and not for compensation to the roster has to be traded for some relative equal value. Speculating that the 82nd pick has a minute chance of being a stud RB doesn't make the pick anywhare near equal value to the #2 WR in FF last season. It's an area that's open to interpretation, but the interpretation isn't that wide. In this case I support the interpretation that was used. You don't...and I understand, but I don't think your reasoning is something that would be appropriate logice for a commish to apply here.

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In this case I support the interpretation that was used. You don't...and I understand, but I don't think your reasoning is something that would be appropriate logice for a commish to apply here.

 

 

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree, I guess.

 

No matter what the case, your league needs a rule change - pronto. IMHNSO, of course.

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based on criteria that stated that (I am paraphrasing here) a player traded away for a draft pick and not for compensation to the roster has to be traded for some relative equal value.

 

Nick, I know you are paraphrasing the actual rule, but the problem with it is that it is far too vague and speculative. In whose eyes is "relative equal value" attained? And, as mentioned by BB and countless others in this thread, how do you know what that 5th round pick will be?

 

I understand your point that, on the surface, Wayne for the #82 overall does not look like "relative equal value" was attained. But we will never know until that pick has been made and who know exactly who the player is.

 

Either the rule has to be clarified and actual values have to be assigned to picks and players, thus making trades easier to make/accept, or that rule has to go altogether and the only trades that are rejected are those where collusion has been proven; and in those instances, no worries have to be made for owners who complain about other transactions because they'll be kicked out of the league altogether.

 

Good luck; it's a tough situation.

Edited by The Wolf

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Now, if you are not confident that your owners will act in the best interest of the league, while of course trying to better their own teams, then, as you say, it is time to find a new league.

 

 

 

BC, this is not directed solely at you, but....

 

I read this - "have to find a new league" comment when stuff likes this comes up and I've indicated before that it's my opinion that leagues don't grow on trees - at least not the kind where your friends are, where your co-workers are, etc... These kinds of leagues you don't just "find a new league". You work it out. And while it may not be 100% to your liking, your solution is probably not 100% to someone else's liking. So in a nutshell, you have to compromise and at the end find something that everyone may not necessarily like, but agree to live with.

 

Just my $.02.

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BC, this is not directed solely at you, but....

 

I read this - "have to find a new league" comment when stuff likes this comes up and I've indicated before that it's my opinion that leagues don't grow on trees - at least not the kind where your friends are, where your co-workers are, etc... These kinds of leagues you don't just "find a new league". You work it out. And while it may not be 100% to your liking, your solution is probably not 100% to someone else's liking. So in a nutshell, you have to compromise and at the end find something that everyone may not necessarily like, but agree to live with.

 

Just my $.02.

 

 

My "time to find a new league" remark, which was merely elaborating a bit on BeeR's post giving the advice, is when you have lost confidence in your league's ability to make decisions for the betterment of the league. Too often owners will only suggest or support changes that help just their team, and oppose those that may have a negative affect on their team, regardless of the overall effect for the league. I guess it comes down to trying to do the greater good for the league not the individual.

 

That and when you are clearly dealing with colluders/cheats and you have no other recourse but to leave.

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Nick, I know you are paraphrasing the actual rule, but the problem with it is that it is far too vague and speculative. In whose eyes is "relative equal value" attained? And, as mentioned by BB and countless others in this thread, how do you know what that 5th round pick will be?

 

In the end, it's the opinion of the league official making the decision that matters. I made the point in the meeting that this was the case, and so long as a rule like this is in place that the league members either need to respect the opinion and decision of that official or replace them with someone whose opinions and decisions they will respect.

 

 

I understand your point that, on the surface, Wayne for the #82 overall does not look like "relative equal value" was attained. But we will never know until that pick has been made and who know exactly who the player is.

 

Which is why I support the decision to evaluate the trade solely based on the pick and not on the potential for the pick. It will be too late when the pick will be made to rule on the trade.

 

Either the rule has to be clarified and actual values have to be assigned to picks and players, thus making trades easier to make/accept, or that rule has to go altogether and the only trades that are rejected are those where collusion has been proven; and in those instances, no worries have to be made for owners who complain about other transactions because they'll be kicked out of the league altogether.

 

Good luck; it's a tough situation.

 

 

As far as I am concerned after having been involved in this league for several years, the best option for this group of owners would be to disallow trades for draft picks. The collective group just can't seem to handle it.

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BC, this is not directed solely at you, but....

 

I read this - "have to find a new league" comment when stuff likes this comes up and I've indicated before that it's my opinion that leagues don't grow on trees - at least not the kind where your friends are, where your co-workers are, etc... These kinds of leagues you don't just "find a new league". You work it out. And while it may not be 100% to your liking, your solution is probably not 100% to someone else's liking. So in a nutshell, you have to compromise and at the end find something that everyone may not necessarily like, but agree to live with.

 

Just my $.02.

 

 

Hey...CR posted something that I actually agree with. Go figure :D

 

Seriously...my options are to deal with the people in this league (my friends), or to not participate. I have considered the latter, but for now am sticking it out.

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My answers to both questions would be yes. In a perfect world, there would be some sort of balance between votes on trades and commissioner approval. But if you have a trustworthy commish who doesn't have ulterior motives, I think that might be the best way to go, as my experience is that individual owners tend to vote down trades that benefit a front-runner (rather than whether or not the trade is fair).

 

And, no offense, but you're probably going to have disagreement problems in your league no matter what if you have an owner who is willing to deal Reggie Wayne in the prime of his career for the freaking 82nd pick.

Edited by Bill Swerski

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This leads me to believe that my business idea of commishing leagues for a flat fee, and not participating in them would make sense for a lot of leagues. I would be a non-involved neutral moderator. Figure $100 or so for the season (a little over $5 a week).. line up enough leagues and you could be set. Not a bad part time gig.

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This leads me to believe that my business idea of commishing leagues for a flat fee, and not participating in them would make sense for a lot of leagues. I would be a non-involved neutral moderator. Figure $100 or so for the season (a little over $5 a week).. line up enough leagues and you could be set. Not a bad part time gig.

 

 

Funny you say that...I am paid to commish a few leagues that I do not play in. It can get a bit tricky at times but it's worth it!

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This leads me to believe that my business idea of commishing leagues for a flat fee, and not participating in them would make sense for a lot of leagues. I would be a non-involved neutral moderator. Figure $100 or so for the season

LOL

 

you are kidding right.....

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This leads me to believe that my business idea of commishing leagues for a flat fee, and not participating in them would make sense for a lot of leagues. I would be a non-involved neutral moderator. Figure $100 or so for the season (a little over $5 a week).. line up enough leagues and you could be set. Not a bad part time gig.

 

I agree that having an independent, impartial commish is probably the best way to go. That said, good luck finding a league willing to take $100 out of its jackpot. :D

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I agree that having an independent, impartial commish is probably the best way to go. That said, good luck finding a league willing to take $100 out of its jackpot. :D

 

 

I know. Wishful thinking. I wonder how many leagues one could realistically "commish" over in a season? That would determine how much one would have to charge to make it worthwhile to consider. :D

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Everyone in this thread keeps comparing Reggie Wayne to the 82nd pick. And that is no comparison, obviously Reggie Wayne is a zillion times better than the 82nd pick. But in reality, the owner will have his 3rd round pick. And I think that Reggie Wayne is approximately worth a 3rd round pick and the 82nd pick. Especially since this owner will have one of the highest 3rd round picks. So it could be thought of as the 12th best receiver and the 82nd pick for Reggie Wayne. I probably wouldn't do the trade, but on it's face, it isn't that bad of a deal.

 

Perhaps I missed something obvious, but where does the former Wayne owner get a 3rd-round pick in addition? I didn't see that in Nick's original post.

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Everyone in this thread keeps comparing Reggie Wayne to the 82nd pick. And that is no comparison, obviously Reggie Wayne is a zillion times better than the 82nd pick.

 

2006 ADP

 

90. Williams, DeAngelo CAR RB

92. Benson, Cedric CHI RB

96. Maroney, Laurence NEP RB

 

Maroney's current ADP is #9, Benson's is #16, D Williams' is #22 - all are currently viable keepers in a 2 player keeper league.

 

2005 ADP

 

81. Johnson, Larry KCC RB

 

 

Johnson finished as the #4 FF player in the league and has been regarding as a top 3 FF RB ever since.

 

 

2004 ADP

 

82. Dunn, Warrick ATL RB

89. Wayne, Reggie IND WR

94. McGahee, Willis BUF RB

 

 

Dunn finished as the #18 RB, Wayne finished as the #10 WR, McGahee finished as the #13 RB. Ironic, huh?

 

2003 ADP

 

85. Jackson, Darrell SEA WR

 

Jackson finished as the #15 WR

 

Man, it must be nice to be as smart & prescient as you are when the rest of the FF world appears to be so stupid........

 

BTW - we're discussing a 2 player keeper league. How does he get a 3rd round pick for Wayne again?

 

Now, shall we discuss the potential value of the 82nd pick again as being obviously & surely much worse than Wayne's value?

Edited by Bronco Billy

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