Azazello1313 Posted May 29, 2007 Share Posted May 29, 2007 My point is that a performance-inhibiting drug like coke doens't compromise the integrity of the game. does speed compromise the integrity of the game? http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1110052palmeiro1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted May 29, 2007 Share Posted May 29, 2007 does speed compromise the integrity of the game? http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1110052palmeiro1.html Not like steroids and HGH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted May 29, 2007 Share Posted May 29, 2007 If the legal standard was going to be applied there are countless other baseball players that should not have been allowed to play for any number of crimes up to and including the drug use by Daryl Strawberry. Call me crazy, but wasn't Straw repeatedly suspended and eventually jailed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Surely you can't blame Bonds. That would be un-American to expect someone to take responsibility for their actions. Instead, blame an establishment. Oh please, this isn't about politics. Selig and Fehr allowed the use of steroids to run rampant in the game. To the point where if you weren't on them you were at a disadvantage. Pitchers took them at a higher rate than hitters, if you can believe that. As Az pointed out, Bonds got into them late in the game. He reached a point where for him it was "everyone else is doing them" so why shouldn't he? Answer this: why shouldn't he? I'm not absolving Bonds of responsibility for his actions. He broke the law. He might have perjured himself. He should be held accountable. I didn't say otherwise. But your cookie cutter "personal responsibilty Tailgate answer" implies making him the scapegoat for a couple of people whose actions need to be held accountable but you and everyone else are all "Barry Barry Barry" too blind to see it, much less admit it. So, crucify the high profile face, but let the real criminals go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 So, crucify the high profile supersized face, but let the real criminals go. fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Like Soup Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Oh please, this isn't about politics. Selig and Fehr allowed the use of steroids to run rampant in the game. To the point where if you weren't on them you were at a disadvantage. Pitchers took them at a higher rate than hitters, if you can believe that. As Az pointed out, Bonds got into them late in the game. He reached a point where for him it was "everyone else is doing them" so why shouldn't he? Answer this: why shouldn't he? I'm not absolving Bonds of responsibility for his actions. He broke the law. He might have perjured himself. He should be held accountable. I didn't say otherwise. But your cookie cutter "personal responsibilty Tailgate answer" implies making him the scapegoat for a couple of people whose actions need to be held accountable but you and everyone else are all "Barry Barry Barry" too blind to see it, much less admit it. So, crucify the high profile face, but let the real criminals go. I don't think I've ever said I don't think anyone else shouldn't be held accountable. You are right...I am big on personal responsibility and don't turn a blind eye because an establishment didn't put rules in place. We are talking about Barry Bonds in this thread, not the "couple of other people" that should be held accountable as well so no need to infer further. Must an organization put rules in place that are already against the law? My company's handbook doesn't have anything in there about not murdering someone...but I'm pretty sure I'd get in trouble if I did. And you may see it as a cookie cutter answer but I simply say that for your cookie cutter "look at the establishment that allowed it to happen." I infer that as you don't think "the other people" should be held accountable, MLB does. "Everyone else is doing them why shouldn't he" defense...laughable at best. I'm starting to think the only pitchers that didn't use steroids were Maddux and Glavine and for hitters...Chipper Jones. :pullsoffBravesglasses: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh B Tool Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 If you are to take away or asterik his records then you must do the same to any and all records achieved during this era. Including World Series wins, other records broken etc. etc. How could you not? Barry was certainly not the only player including pitchers to juice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 If you are to take away or asterik his records then you must do the same to any and all records achieved during this era. Including World Series wins, other records broken etc. etc. How could you not? Barry was certainly not the only player including pitchers to juice. It probably won't be asterik'd, but it will be in many people's heads when they look back on Bonds and any records he cheated to beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Here is a site with a detailed break down of Bonds' career stats. There are some very impressive stats in there dating back to his days with the Pirates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 If you are to take away or asterik his records then you must do the same to any and all records achieved during this era. Including World Series wins, other records broken etc. etc. How could you not? Barry was certainly not the only player including pitchers to juice. good info here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Here is a site with a detailed break down of Bonds' career stats. There are some very impressive stats in there dating back to his days with the Pirates. Do you think his HR stats would be inversely proportional to his hat size if they were put side by side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 If you are to take away or asterik his records then you must do the same to any and all records achieved during this era. Including World Series wins, other records broken etc. etc. How could you not? Barry was certainly not the only player including pitchers to juice. Works for me. For any player that there is similar mountains of evidence for being a juicehead, "asterik" the flip outta them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Agreed ..big asterisk ...hope grand jury indicts him soon and puts his challenge of breaking record on hold ... He did not need to juice to be a true first ballot halll of famer but it was his choice to take it and ingest or rub it on his buttocks ( yucch ) , etc ...to blame selig is just silly and misinformed Its like blaming philip morris for a smoking habit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Agreed ..big asterisk ...hope grand jury indicts him soon and puts his challenge of breaking record on hold ... He did not need to juice to be a true first ballot halll of famer but it was his choice to take it and ingest or rub it on his buttocks ( yucch ) , etc ...to blame selig is just silly and misinformed Its like blaming philip morris for a smoking habit Go look up when steroids became "against the rules" to use in baseball. Then find out why it was then and you'll realize how ignorant and asinine your statement is. A lack of willingness to investigate and enfore illegal activity within your sport and violation of US laws is more than being a 'cigarette manufacurer.' Look at it this way: a local highway has a speed limit of 75 and 200 people die on it each year. A study says bringing the speed limit down to 60 saves x number of lives. Signs are put up (more effort than in baseball, but bear with me) to make it 60 mph. Overalf the people still drive at 75, and X number of lives aren't saved - it's much closer to the original death toll. Who's to blame for the lives not saced? The speeders only who died? Everyone else who 'goes at the speed of traffic' contributing to the environment of death? Or law enforcement officials who won't enforce a thing and ALLOW ANYONE who wants to speed, speed without regard for consequence? Short answer: everyone is to blame. But focusing on one guy who gets pulled over lets the problem off the hook. Barry is the symptom, Selig and Fehr are the disease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Go look up when steroids became "against the rules" to use in baseball. Then find out why it was then and you'll realize how ignorant and asinine your statement is. A lack of willingness to investigate and enfore illegal activity within your sport and violation of US laws is more than being a 'cigarette manufacurer.' Look at it this way: a local highway has a speed limit of 75 and 200 people die on it each year. A study says bringing the speed limit down to 60 saves x number of lives. Signs are put up (more effort than in baseball, but bear with me) to make it 60 mph. Overalf the people still drive at 75, and X number of lives aren't saved - it's much closer to the original death toll. Who's to blame for the lives not saced? The speeders only who died? Everyone else who 'goes at the speed of traffic' contributing to the environment of death? Or law enforcement officials who won't enforce a thing and ALLOW ANYONE who wants to speed, speed without regard for consequence? Short answer: everyone is to blame. But focusing on one guy who gets pulled over lets the problem off the hook. Barry is the symptom, Selig and Fehr are the disease. +1 McGuire and Sosa's HR chase in the late nineties saved baseball. You have to think that Selig knew those guys were juiced and didn't do jack. Why would he? His sport's popularity was at an all time low and the long ball was saving it. Utility infielders were hitting bombs to the opposite field and everyone was loving the game. As has been mentioned, it appears Bonds got into the juice game after those guys. It's no wonder that it vaulted him to levels that none of the others hit because he was already a great player. McGuire and Sosa were one-trick ponies who's batting averages were typically below 300. Bonds was already hitting everything they threw anywhere near him and the juice gave him the power to put a few balls that would have been long outs into the cheap seats. It really is a shame because I recall his first year in SF. Dude was freaking insane. I am not, in any way, suggesting that Bonds be absolved of guilt in this regard. I don't really see anyone else here suggesting that either. However, like Giambi mentioned the other day. Baseball owes everyone an apology just like the individual players do. Do suggest otherwise is foolish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 "Everyone else is doing them why shouldn't he" defense...laughable at best. I'm starting to think the only pitchers that didn't use steroids were Maddux and Glavine and for hitters...Chipper Jones. :pullsoffBravesglasses: it's not really an excuse, it's simply telling it like it is. bonds sat back and watched inferior players throttle old records while juicing, and he watched baseball sit back and do nothing about it, and to actually lionize them for "saving baseball". the game needed a boost after the strike, so when it came along in the guise of hulked up road-ragers turning the game into pinball, they were more than happy to look the other way and wink and nod. the guys he was playing with and against were doing it, the teams and the league were tacitly endorsing it, "reputable" doctors and trainers were readily available to provide it. bonds apparently saw all of that, saw that there was no drug testing policy, and probably said to himself, why aren't i doing this? of course, he didn't HAVE to, and someone with truly stellar moral character might still have said "no thanks". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Here is a site with a detailed break down of Bonds' career stats. There are some very impressive stats in there dating back to his days with the Pirates. +1 He's the best position player of my generation. Too bad he had to tarnish his legacy with that junk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Like Soup Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Here is a site with a detailed break down of Bonds' career stats. There are some very impressive stats in there dating back to his days with the Pirates. I've always been of the belief that Barry was a Hall of Famer before the steroids. it's not really an excuse, it's simply telling it like it is. bonds sat back and watched inferior players throttle old records while juicing, and he watched baseball sit back and do nothing about it, and to actually lionize them for "saving baseball". the game needed a boost after the strike, so when it came along in the guise of hulked up road-ragers turning the game into pinball, they were more than happy to look the other way and wink and nod. the guys he was playing with and against were doing it, the teams and the league were tacitly endorsing it, "reputable" doctors and trainers were readily available to provide it. bonds apparently saw all of that, saw that there was no drug testing policy, and probably said to himself, why aren't i doing this? of course, he didn't HAVE to, and someone with truly stellar moral character might still have said "no thanks". See Ken Griffey Jr. Someone like Barry didn't need to do it. What you suggest is he did it for pride reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holliday Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Depends now doesn't it. If one has a problem being relaxed and you perform better when you take the edge off then there might be a performance enhancing effect. I find it funny that you say the integrity of the game is not compromised by an illegal substance like coke but is prohibited by another illegal substance, steriods. Steroids lets you do things you otherwise could not do. coke ruins your career. both are bad but 1 of them gives you a unfair advantage while playing the game. does speed compromise the integrity of the game? http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1110052palmeiro1.html No. Oh please, this isn't about politics. Selig and Fehr allowed the use of steroids to run rampant in the game. To the point where if you weren't on them you were at a disadvantage. Pitchers took them at a higher rate than hitters, if you can believe that. As Az pointed out, Bonds got into them late in the game. He reached a point where for him it was "everyone else is doing them" so why shouldn't he? Answer this: why shouldn't he? I'm not absolving Bonds of responsibility for his actions. He broke the law. He might have perjured himself. He should be held accountable. I didn't say otherwise. But your cookie cutter "personal responsibilty Tailgate answer" implies making him the scapegoat for a couple of people whose actions need to be held accountable but you and everyone else are all "Barry Barry Barry" too blind to see it, much less admit it. So, crucify the high profile face, but let the real criminals go. I agree with this. after not having a series in 94 baseball was hurting and they let steroids go because the HR's were drawing the crowds.Barry may be the biggest fish since he is breaking records, but the responsibility should not end at him. If you are to take away or asterik his records then you must do the same to any and all records achieved during this era. Including World Series wins, other records broken etc. etc. How could you not? Barry was certainly not the only player including pitchers to juice. This is the problem. they can't eliminate bonds records without just basically wiping a era off the slate. +1 He's the best position player of my generation. Too bad he had to tarnish his legacy with that junk. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 What you suggest is he did it for pride reasons. absolutely, and like you say, he didn't have to. i'm not saying he doesn't deserve his share of blame, i am simply saying he doesn't deserve to be the fall guy for an entire era of players, teams, commissioners, etc. just because he happened to be the BEST player when it all went down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Like Soup Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 absolutely, and like you say, he didn't have to. i'm not saying he doesn't deserve his share of blame, i am simply saying he doesn't deserve to be the fall guy for an entire era of players, teams, commissioners, etc. just because he happened to be the BEST player when it all went down. We'll have to agree to agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 it's not really an excuse, it's simply telling it like it is. bonds sat back and watched inferior players throttle old records while juicing, and he watched baseball sit back and do nothing about it, and to actually lionize them for "saving baseball". the game needed a boost after the strike, so when it came along in the guise of hulked up road-ragers turning the game into pinball, they were more than happy to look the other way and wink and nod. the guys he was playing with and against were doing it, the teams and the league were tacitly endorsing it, "reputable" doctors and trainers were readily available to provide it. bonds apparently saw all of that, saw that there was no drug testing policy, and probably said to himself, why aren't i doing this? of course, he didn't HAVE to, and someone with truly stellar moral character might still have said "no thanks". Peer pressure is a bitch. Did he skip health class in Jr. High? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 absolutely, and like you say, he didn't have to. i'm not saying he doesn't deserve his share of blame, i am simply saying he doesn't deserve to be the fall guy for an entire era of players, teams, commissioners, etc. just because he happened to be the BEST player when it all went down. It's because he's black. It's not a question of skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holliday Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 It's because he's black. It's not a question of skill. Maybe to racists this is true. But the reason why it has picked up so much steam is because reporters hated him long before they ever had any idea he was on steroids because he hated them(which I don't blame him).so when the steroids issue came out they pounded it on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 McGuire and Sosa were one-trick ponies... Speaking of which... It's because he's black. It's not a question of skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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