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Michael Vick's Property Raided again

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But hey, Mike Vick is the most exciting player... :D

 

Yep. That's why every thread about him jumps to 10 pages.

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Yep. That's why every thread about him jumps to 10 pages.

And this one has finally jumped off topic. Thank God! :D

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...The Pits that get the bad press by attacking people, are dogs who have been poorly bred, poorly socialized, and poorly treated, so they learn not to trust. To find the correct temperament of Pit Bulls go to www.dogbreedinfo.com. I have not read their description of the breed on that site but I bet it's pretty close to what I describe. I use that site to learn about a breed I've never trained before to get insight...

 

American Pit Bull Terrier - from the sited web site I think this and all of the descriptions were written by fans of the breed. I looked at a few breeds here and none of the pages really highlight any of the negatives, other than health issues.

 

I posted this to be fair to the other side. My experience and reading is very different from this. All you have to do is read between the lines in the origins section as to what they were bred for. You can't breed this out in just a few generations. A dog matures mentally in about three years (faster for smaller breeds). So adult disposition of an animal cannot be determined for at least this long to evaluate the breeding viability of an animal for certain characteristics.

 

Let's say it is responsible to wait 5 years (still too short, but hey :D) Add to this breeding, pregnancy and other issues that would delay a littler, we can expand this to six years conservatively (our experience in breeding vizslas was closer to 8 for breeding animals for certain characteristics and not just puppy sales).

 

Now every generation of dogs being bred for certain behavior traits is about six years. 10 generations, which is not alot when you are trying to change an entire personality of a breed, is a minimum of sixty years! If you consider the five years you need to add for the puppy to grow and be evaluated for desirable behavior or traits, this can be doubled. This hasn't been an issue for 60 years, so if you want to make that leap of faith, fine, it is your choice and the consequences that go with it. Just keep them away from me and my family please.

Edited by McBoog

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Yep. That's why every thread about him jumps to 10 pages.

 

Yo dippo, you missed the "mouth" . Get it, :D ??

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Yo dippo, you missed the "mouth" . Get it, :D ??

 

Trust me. I got your use of emoticon.

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Yep. That's why every thread about him jumps to 10 pages.

 

Yeah, that is how we should judge players, based on how many posts a thread about them receives. Let's start a thread titled "Peyton Manning is a good quarterback" and another stating "Eli Manning is the best QB in the NFL"

 

If Eli's thread garners more attention, then that means he is a "better" or "more exciting" player than Peyton Manning.

 

Waterman logic at its best......... :D

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I'll jump in an answer that. Though this changes the focus of the thread.

 

ABSOLUTELY NO FRIGGEN WAY!

 

I won't go in a house with unsecurred Pit Bulls and will NEVER let my children near them. I won't say I'm a "seasoned" dog trainer, but I was qualified as a judge for Vislas and Dachshunds. My family has bred and trained Vislas for the field as well as obidience and tricks/entertainment. In other words, we be into dogs!

 

My feelings are supported by a majority of the insurance industry. There is a short list of dogs that disqualify you from, in some instances, ANY chance of a home owners policy, and in most cases, much higher rates. Pit Bulls are at the top of that list.

 

Though the owner has a major role to play in the disposition of pit bulls, they have been bred for hundreds of years to be killer dogs, just like the Chow Chow (bred as a war dog, used to attack the enemy as well as a food source for the troops if needed). Many Pit owners relish the reputation of their dogs and make the situation worse with their attitude. Because of their warped sence of "pack" they are very much single person animals and even when raised with another dog, never quite work those doggy relationships out very well. The Pit Bull is the perfect companion for the anti-social hermit living in the mountains, far from other people.

 

There has been no "natural" selection in the formation of this breed. It has been carefully selected by humans for certain personality and physical traits that make it superior at what it does... to fight, blindly and ferociously to the death, in the PIT (hence Pit Bull). More niavete by those who refuse to acknowledge this, it is in their name for God's sake. They are agressive and dangerous animals. They have an unreasonable propencity to snap and love to kill other animals. Awsome watch dogs, they take little training to protect one's property, but are often almost as dangerous to the property owner if left to roam as they have a tendency (unusual in dogs) to go "ferrel" in reduced human contact situations. They are retarded socially with both humans and other dogs and do not form the same type of "pack" relationships that almost all other dogs do.

 

Sure, there may be some breeders trying to "breed this out", but what will be left when they do? The other good traits they are trying to re-instill have already been masked or removed through a couple centuries of breeding!

 

There is no place for this breed in the human/dog relationship, unless of course they are used as a gambling tool for dog fights. There are so many better choices for a family dog without ANY of these concerns, it is beyond me why anyone would bring one of these time bombs into their home, especially if children and their friends are around. They are dangerous to a fault and have attacked and killed the children of their owners (two of them even ate a baby in Tucson when I was living there 20 years ago!) without provocation and at a rate astronomically higher than the average for almost all other breeds. Even the "nice ones" do snap and go into a blood rage when they do get pushed to the fight/attack mode and are single minded at that point on (hence the need for jaw bars). Voice commands and saying, "No, bad dog!" just doesn't cut it at this point.

 

Just as we have bred cows and pigs and chickens for a cetain purpose, we too have bred dogs for other missions. The relationship of man and dog has been one of the most successful cross-species coopertion models ever known. We as humans have created this breed for a purpose, and sadly, there is no turning back.

 

But hey, Mike Vick is the most exciting player... :D

 

I apologize for taking this thread another direction, but need to quailfy my statement from my previous post in the middle of night with insomina. I didn't mean "natural selection" when it has come to developing the Pit Bulls, what I meant was "artificial selection" Oops and sorry. I will still stand by the fact that the well bred Pit Bulls I have met, most are not nice around other dogs, but the well bred Pit Bull, in my experience, has been very affectionate around people.

 

I do agree there are many better breeds to choose from and I really don't know why the average owner would own one. Many do to save a dog's life but they get yelled at and ridiculed in public and people stay clear of them.

 

I was invloved in behavior evaluations at a Humane Society. Our shelter had a national repuation for doing sound temperament testing and the director of training and behavior there did national speaking engagments around the country to train other shelters and rescue groups on our protocol. We would decide through a behavior evaluaton process whether a dog was worthy of adoption or should be put to sleep. We put a much higher percentage of Pits and Pit mixes to sleep than any other breed or breed mix, but I can't remember but a few that were put to sleep because of people aggression (no higher of lower than other breeds), and most were put to sleep because of dog aggression. It often broke my heart because we'd do the people aggression test first and most of them passed with flying colors and they were sweet and you got attached, and then we'd introduce a dog and the Pit would go crazy and you'd have to send them to the needle. There was a lot of controversary regarding our shelter on putting dogs to sleep that were dog aggressive, even people aggressive since the dogs may have only acted out because of the stress of the shelter environment. The Pit Bull rescue club in the area would take some of the dogs that we deemed unsuitable for adoption-our testing was quite strict since many families adopted our dogs.-but rescue club's foster homes were over run and couldn't take them all, and we'd only offer them the dogs who borderline didn't pass so the breed/rescue club would adopt out to a breed experienced only home. In our testing we would push these dogs to the limits to see what they would do-we had to learn defensive handliing skills and know how to quickly defuse and redirect a dog who was ready to bite. It was quite the adrenline rush at times. I'd always rather have a 3 year old Pit Bull to evaluate because you knew what you had. As I mentioned dogs mature between 18 mths and 3 years depending on the dog and breed. A Pit often loves dogs until they hit that age of sexual/social maturity.

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I will still stand by the fact that the well bred Pit Bulls I have met, most are not nice around other dogs, but the well bred Pit Bull, in my experience, has been very affectionate around people.

 

I don't breed dogs, but from what I've read in the news, pit bull attacks seem to occur much more often when other dogs are involved. In terms of my own experience, my great grandmother's poodle was attacked by two pit bulls and they pretty much ignored her until she attempted to fight them off.

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This thread hasn't taken a turn. This is probably the most constructive it's been yet IMO.

 

:D

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I'm a professional dog trainer who has trained dozens of wonderful Pit Bulls- they are not born killers. They are trained to kill. Through natural selection they are given the genetic make-up to hold on when they bite, have a high level of endurance, high energy, high drive to not give-up, confiident, and have low pain threshhold. This makes them a good fighting dog. The one unfortunate result of natural selection is when they reach adulthood many Pits do not tolerate or like other dogs. Responsible breeders are trying to breed this out of them.

 

isn't the problem affecting pit bulls as a breed that there are so many irresponsible "breeders" trying to breed as much of that nastiness INTO them as possible? there are a lot of dog breeds out there with fighting histories, but it's been successfully bred out of them for the most part. large numbers of people still fight pit bulls, so breeding aggressiveness out of them is going to be an uphill battle. as long as that's the case, i can't blame any person who doesn't trust a pit bull beyond the end of their 12-gauge, and i really blame cities and such who legislate against owning the breed.

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I don't breed dogs, but from what I've read in the news, pit bull attacks seem to occur much more often when other dogs are involved. In terms of my own experience, my great grandmother's poodle was attacked by two pit bulls and they pretty much ignored her until she attempted to fight them off.

 

 

Who won?

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isn't the problem affecting pit bulls as a breed that there are so many irresponsible "breeders" trying to breed as much of that nastiness INTO them as possible? there are a lot of dog breeds out there with fighting histories, but it's been successfully bred out of them for the most part. large numbers of people still fight pit bulls, so breeding aggressiveness out of them is going to be an uphill battle. as long as that's the case, i can't blame any person who doesn't trust a pit bull beyond the end of their 12-gauge, and i really blame cities and such who legislate against owning the breed.

Bingo. It isn't true there are no bad dogs (sure there are some) but there are a whole heck of a lot of bad owners / breeders.

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Bingo. It isn't true there are no bad dogs (sure there are some) but there are a whole heck of a lot of bad owners / breeders.

 

This is the problem. There are many bully/mastiff breeds that were used for dog fighting or bull baiting and have for the most part has been bred out of them by responsible breeders.

 

Great Danes, English Mastiff, Bull Mastiffs, Boxers, American Bull Dog, English Bulldog, and Bull Terrier-to name a few.

 

There are some Mastiff/Bully breeds that I consider dangerous towards humans and other dogs becuase, like the Pits, many are still being bred that way: Some of these dogs are massive. Presa Carnarios, Neopolitan Mastiff, Cane Corso, Dogo Argentinio, Dogue de Bordeaux (remember Turner and Hooch), Fila Brasileiro, amd Boerbel. All of these breeds are much larger than the Pit Bulls. I just trained a Boerbel which is a South African Mastiff used as a guardian breed. The puppy was a very nice dog but weighed 98 lbs at six months. They did train him for 12 straight weeks and took that dog everywhere to be introduced to people, dogs and new things. So far so good.

 

The American Staffordshire is the AKC version of the Pit Bull. Some say it is a direct cousin others say it is a Pit renamed. You will more likely find these dogs from show breeders with nice temperaments because if Am Staffs show aggression towards the judge or other dogs in the ring, they will be asked to leave.

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Bingo. It isn't true there are no bad dogs (sure there are some) but there are a whole heck of a lot of bad owners / breeders.

 

I'm still trying to figure this one out. My neighbor bought a pit bull pup at around 6 months of age. He has 2 young kids, which would be enough for me to avoid the breed altogether. But he defended the choice, saying it's not the dog, it's the breeder and the owner. Then he tells me he thinks the dog was beaten because it flinches when he raises his hand up to pet her. So he encouraged me, and anyone else around to come over and pet her, to help "socialize" the dog.

 

At first the dog loved me and I would often go over and pet her. She is now around 15 months old and I don't like going near her. One time she growled and looked like she was about to snap at me, and often she looks a little tentative when I approach, like she can't decide if she wants to be nice or go for the jugular. At this point she probably senses fear in me, but honestly every dog I've been around has loved me and I think this one is just a rotten apple. I have this sense of impending dread that this guy's little daughter is going to be rushed to the hospital one day because the dog snapped and decided to bite her face off. How a parent of young kids could bring a dog like that into the house, knowing their history, just boggles my mind.

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I'm still trying to figure this one out. My neighbor bought a pit bull pup at around 6 months of age. He has 2 young kids, which would be enough for me to avoid the breed altogether. But he defended the choice, saying it's not the dog, it's the breeder and the owner. Then he tells me he thinks the dog was beaten because it flinches when he raises his hand up to pet her. So he encouraged me, and anyone else around to come over and pet her, to help "socialize" the dog.

 

At first the dog loved me and I would often go over and pet her. She is now around 15 months old and I don't like going near her. One time she growled and looked like she was about to snap at me, and often she looks a little tentative when I approach, like she can't decide if she wants to be nice or go for the jugular. At this point she probably senses fear in me, but honestly every dog I've been around has loved me and I think this one is just a rotten apple. I have this sense of impending dread that this guy's little daughter is going to be rushed to the hospital one day because the dog snapped and decided to bite her face off. How a parent of young kids could bring a dog like that into the house, knowing their history, just boggles my mind.

As I said, there are some bad dogs. I concur completely about having a dog breed that was originally a fighter around kids. Why risk it? Could be that you don't visit all that frequently and the dog has staked out it's territory and it's pack.

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I apologize for taking this thread another direction, but need to quailfy my statement from my previous post in the middle of night with insomina. I didn't mean "natural selection" when it has come to developing the Pit Bulls, what I meant was "artificial selection" Oops and sorry. I will still stand by the fact that the well bred Pit Bulls I have met, most are not nice around other dogs, but the well bred Pit Bull, in my experience, has been very affectionate around people.

 

I do agree there are many better breeds to choose from and I really don't know why the average owner would own one. Many do to save a dog's life but they get yelled at and ridiculed in public and people stay clear of them.

 

I was invloved in behavior evaluations at a Humane Society. Our shelter had a national repuation for doing sound temperament testing and the director of training and behavior there did national speaking engagments around the country to train other shelters and rescue groups on our protocol. We would decide through a behavior evaluaton process whether a dog was worthy of adoption or should be put to sleep. We put a much higher percentage of Pits and Pit mixes to sleep than any other breed or breed mix, but I can't remember but a few that were put to sleep because of people aggression (no higher of lower than other breeds), and most were put to sleep because of dog aggression. It often broke my heart because we'd do the people aggression test first and most of them passed with flying colors and they were sweet and you got attached, and then we'd introduce a dog and the Pit would go crazy and you'd have to send them to the needle. There was a lot of controversary regarding our shelter on putting dogs to sleep that were dog aggressive, even people aggressive since the dogs may have only acted out because of the stress of the shelter environment. The Pit Bull rescue club in the area would take some of the dogs that we deemed unsuitable for adoption-our testing was quite strict since many families adopted our dogs.-but rescue club's foster homes were over run and couldn't take them all, and we'd only offer them the dogs who borderline didn't pass so the breed/rescue club would adopt out to a breed experienced only home. In our testing we would push these dogs to the limits to see what they would do-we had to learn defensive handliing skills and know how to quickly defuse and redirect a dog who was ready to bite. It was quite the adrenline rush at times. I'd always rather have a 3 year old Pit Bull to evaluate because you knew what you had. As I mentioned dogs mature between 18 mths and 3 years depending on the dog and breed. A Pit often loves dogs until they hit that age of sexual/social maturity.

 

Very interesting post! Thanx! :D

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Looks like we've got some people that know their stuff replying so, I asked this question before but didn't get a reply, how did they get so many pit bulls at that Surry house?

Edited by broncosn05

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Were any of the dogs named Ron Mexico, by chance? Just looking for a connection. :D

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Were any of the dogs named Ron Mexico, by chance? Just looking for a connection. :D

 

No, but one was named Valtrex. :D

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So does anyone have any good recipes? Seen a good movie lately? :D

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So does anyone have any good recipes? Seen a good movie lately? :D

 

Incredible Journey (the original movie) was a great movie. I cry everytime I see the ending.

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Incredible Journey (the original movie) was a great movie. I cry everytime I see the ending.

 

So does Peyton Manning.

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