Vick Indicted

[Def.]

Yes and you value a guy that you paid 100M , was the starting QB, was the face of franchise, and empties the seats week in and week out differently than a 3rd string guy. Don't be so naive. Everyone was created equal doesn't mean that they are now.

 

Fixed.

 

Vick playing this year is bad for the NFL, bad for the fans, and bad for Vick. He needs to concentrate on the problems around him, not on football. And NFL/fans would like to concentrate on football, not this.

[McBoog]

OK Broncos:

 

I have a question for you. What is it about Vick that brings out this irrational and character damaging support? I don't get it!?!? Are you as passionate about EVERY accused person in the US. In the remote possibility that he somehow gets off, are you settng yourself up for the biggest, holier than thow, I told you so thread ever? You seem smart, and I just don't get it!

 

Here is a scenario for you, given everything we already know and a lot about who is going to step forward and what they are going to say in Vick's case, lets change the type of crime a tad.

 

Your child is kidnapped and sexually tortured. Not a few times, but repeatedly until your child dies. Witnesses and evidence uncovered during the investigation, show that it all clearly points to two or three sickos that even used medications to keep your child alive longer than he/she should have in order to extend the torture and sexual abuse. As part of the investigation, it is discovered that open gambling on how long your child was going to survive occured and that a 24/7 web camera had been set up in order to document the entire event and establish an actual death time. (This happens everyday in many parts of the world).

 

Now, these people are indicted, but not yet convicted. Would you be as passionate about the presumed innocence of those who killed your child in this fashion as you are about Vick's?

 

If your answer is "yes", i'd like to buy you a beer... Oh, and invite Jesus along because I've always wanted to meet him too.

Edited July 19, 2007 by McBoog

[budlitebrad]

Yes and you value a guy that you paid 100M , is the starting QB, is the face of franchise, and fills seats week in and week out differently than a 3rd string guy. Don't be so naive. Everyone was created equal doesn't mean that they are now.

 

I'm not naive, I know how the system works. Doesn't mean I can't ask why.

 

It's obvious by Blank's statement that he isn't supporting Vick. He's probably sitting there with his executives trying to figure out what option will cost him the least amount of money from sponsors, salary cap, etc. and support from fans. Either way, the longer he and Goodell let that insane thug wear a uniform, the more respect they lose from true football fans.

Edited July 20, 2007 by budlitebrad

[PantherDave]

I concur with Def, as I do not want to listen to this circus and eventually media drivel all season long, this azz wipe stands a chance of tarnishing the season in my opinion. He should be no where around football-besides, he needs to be worried about legal defense and not NFL defenses for the foreseable amount of time in front of him now. .

[TheShiznit]

Interesting items out of a Rocky Mountain news story about Vick today:

 

(No link available yet)

 

In a letter to Goodell, Falcons owner Aurthur Blank and Vick's corporate sponsors, hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons and the Rev. Al Sharpton joined with People for Ethical Treatment of Animals and the Humane Society of the United States in calling for strong stands against animal cruelty.

 

"Today we sound a clarion call to all people: Stand up for what is right and speak out against what is wrong. Dogfighting is unacceptable. Hurting animals for human pleasure or gain is despicable. Cruelty is just plain wrong," the letter said.

 

********************************************************************

***********

 

Goodell and Blank met individually with Vick in May after the investigation started, telling him to straighten up or risk discipline. Blank said he "could not have been more stern" in telling Vick he represents himself, the franchise and the league and needs to do it right.

 

"They challenged me to be more accountable in all areas of my life. I know I need to make some changes around me to make sure that the people in my life have my best interest at heart," Vick said then. "My goal is to not let my fans, my team-mates or my coaches down."

 

Random thoughts:

 

Blank lining up publicly with PETA? That's not a good sign at all for Vick.

 

Sharpton also lining up publicly with PETA instead of supporting Vick while charging the Feds with racism? That's incredibly damning that almost everyone has turned on Vick (except waterman & broncos, of course).

 

Vick's statement that he needs to be sure that people around him have his best interest at heart? How about he has his own best interest at heart and start making some good decisons on his own? This guy is becoming incredibly laughable - or he would be if what he has been accused of weren't so heinous.

 

Goodell & Blank have put themselves into a corner where if they don't discipline Vick, despite what happens with the Feds, with the evidence released in the Feds to obtain Vick's indictment, both will lose all credibility if they don't take a hard line stance and provide significant punishment for Vick.

 

Not that it is the same thing, which it clearly is not, but I wonder where the outcry is from people about Horseracing. I mean they take two year old horses....which aren't necessarily strong enough to be ridden yet because their leg bones are still growing....and run them extreme lengths just to see which one wins? I mean I am happy these people are standing up against dog fighting....but what about all the other things humans involve animals in just to amuse us? Just a thought.

[TheShiznit]

I knew someone would go in this direction, and am quite frankly shocked that it has taken this long.

 

You know what else we should do, dm? We shoulds arrest all boxing fans & boxing promoters, too, since humans are also animals, boxing pits them against each other violently, and people enjoy watching boxing, as well as gambling on it. In fact, that same argument works for football, too, doesn't it.

 

Okay, everyone. March right down to your local law enforcement office & turn yourselves in. Take your wife & kids with you if they use animal products in any way, shape, or form or eat meat also. You are all under arrest.

 

Doesn't necessarily address his issue....but ok!!! So you don't care about the other things. What humans do to survive is one thing...and philosophy seems lost on you....but to simply harm animals for SPORT or AMUSEMENT is simply wrong. Humans have the innate ability to REASON...animals do not. Therefore your boxing analogy is quite frankly not the same when equating to an animal. I would like to see you extrapolate your disagreement in a more fortuitous manner than just say he is full of Sega! and belittle him.

[McBoog]

Not that it is the same thing, which it clearly is not, but I wonder where the outcry is from people about Horseracing. I mean they take two year old horses....which aren't necessarily strong enough to be ridden yet because their leg bones are still growing....and run them extreme lengths just to see which one wins? I mean I am happy these people are standing up against dog fighting....but what about all the other things humans involve animals in just to amuse us? Just a thought.

 

You are trying to compare a highly regulated "sport" with the brutal activity and illeagal interstate gambling? Even the "winning dogs are often so badly injured they need to be put down. Yeah, it is in their nature and spain has made some valid points with regard to this. But, for me there is a point where the brutality crosses the line and is just too far out there.

 

Where do you draw the line? Are you a vegan? Our "use" of other animals is part of why we are who/what we are. There are biblical refs to this in multiple religions (if that is your bag). IMO, this was a very goofy comparison.

 

Humans have had a history of fighting animals, and each other, as entertainment. Everything from scorpions/bugs, to dogs to the gladiators. It does not mean the it is, at this point in time, and in this country, justified.

 

I still contend that it is the charges related to gambling and the actual oraganization of the criminal conspiracy that hammers Vick much harder than the animal cruelty charges. I don't think the Feds would have gotten involved if it was "just" the animal fighting/cruelty.

[TheShiznit]

You are trying to compare a highly regulated "sport" with the brutal activity and illeagal interstate gambling?There is plenty of illegal interstate gambling on horse races....NO? Even the "winning dogs are often so badly injured they need to be put down. Yeah, it is in their nature and spain has made some valid points with regard to this. But, for me there is a point where the brutality crosses the line and is just too far out there.And you would not get any disagreement from me at all. I guess the question I have is this. If dogfighting were somehow as regulated as horse racing, would it be any more correct? My guess is the answer is no...and quite possibly should be. But I think a deeper reflection of what we are willing to allow in abuse to animals within our society now is actually the culprit for poeple "pushing the envelope" and participating in dogfighting....that is just my thought there.

Where do you draw the line? Are you a vegan? Our "use" of other animals is part of why we are who/what we are. There are biblical refs to this in multiple religions (if that is your bag). IMO, this was a very goofy comparison.I already addressed this issue formt he aspect of human survival. That is very different from sport. If you would like to turn this into Bible study so beit...I would rather not.

 

Humans have had a history of fighting animals, and each other, as entertainment. Everything from scorpions/bugs, to dogs to the gladiators. It does not mean the it is, at this point in time, and in this country, justified. Yes we have...and hopefully we have evolved to have greater understanding of our past mistakes within mankind.

I still contend that it is the charges related to gambling and the actual oraganization of the criminal conspiracy that hammers Vick much harder than the animal cruelty charges. I don't think the Feds would have gotten involved if it was "just" the animal fighting/cruelty.

 

I thend to agree with that last statement wholeheartedly. For the record...incase noonoe wants to read this entire godforesaken thread...I think Vick is a scumbag and should get the worst punishment possible...that being said...I like to argue.....

[Azazello1313]

you might be able to convince me that dog fighting is no more inhumane than hunting for sport, but that's sorta beside the point. at present, one can result in the sort of federal charges vick is currently looking at, and the other can't. bottom line, dog fighting is a felony in 48 states, and the gambling, taking dogs over state lines, and so on open up a big can of potential federal whoopass for vick. should it be that way, while other things that hurt animals get a pass? might make for an interesting discussion, but here it seems irrelevant to me.

[TheShiznit]

you might be able to convince me that dog fighting is no more inhumane than hunting for sport, but that's sorta beside the point. at present, one can result in the sort of federal charges vick is currently looking at, and the other can't. bottom line, dog fighting is a felony in 48 states, and the gambling, taking dogs over state lines, and so on open up a big can of potential federal whoopass for vick. should it be that way, while other things that hurt animals get a pass? might make for an interesting discussion, but here it seems irrelevant to me.

 

I don't disagree with that either. I originally made mention only to ask why is Goodell and Sharpton and other selectively picking dog fighting....I mean I know the OBVIOUS answer. It would seem more genuine if they said nothing at all!!!! But it would seem most genuine if the letter highlighted how we as a society tend to treat some animals more harsh than others simply because they may be ugly or someone can make money off them. I am in no way a member of PETA...nor would I ever be. It just seems that if we are to be outraged over dogfighting amongst Terrier of the Pit variety...then why not be outraged about all the other transgressions at the same time.

[Ursa Majoris]

You are trying to compare a highly regulated "sport" with the brutal activity and illeagal interstate gambling? Even the "winning dogs are often so badly injured they need to be put down. Yeah, it is in their nature and spain has made some valid points with regard to this. But, for me there is a point where the brutality crosses the line and is just too far out there.

 

Where do you draw the line? Are you a vegan? Our "use" of other animals is part of why we are who/what we are. There are biblical refs to this in multiple religions (if that is your bag). IMO, this was a very goofy comparison.

 

Humans have had a history of fighting animals, and each other, as entertainment. Everything from scorpions/bugs, to dogs to the gladiators. It does not mean the it is, at this point in time, and in this country, justified.

 

I still contend that it is the charges related to gambling and the actual oraganization of the criminal conspiracy that hammers Vick much harder than the animal cruelty charges. I don't think the Feds would have gotten involved if it was "just" the animal fighting/cruelty.

I expect you're right about the more serious crime being the gambling, which is more an indictment of the current state of the law than anything else.

 

As for the rest of your post, you've slightly contradicted yourself in your second and third paragraphs, where you first say that there are Biblical references about animal (ab)use as if that was some kind of semi-justification. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way. Then in the third paragraph, you state, rightly, that the history of the human race's (ab)use of animals does not justify continued abuses, which is, IMO, correct. There is no excuse for this kind of thing, not in any culture or community and I don't give a rats ass about cultural or religious history. This is 2007. "People" indulging in hurting animals for fun are sub-humans and unfit to be included in the human race.

[McBoog]

 

I thend to agree with that last statement wholeheartedly. For the record...incase noonoe wants to read this entire godforesaken thread...I think Vick is a scumbag and should get the worst punishment possible...that being said...I like to argue.....

 

 

I agree with both you and Azz's srtatement above.

 

In reality, to me it is sort of a sad commentary that such horrific treatment of these animals is going to be ancillary to what ultimately puts Vick away. Sort of like getting Capone on tax charges. The end result is almost empty in terms of how justice was applied and how people "feel" about the case (a little of the "liberal side of me coming out ).

 

Argue with that!

[TheShiznit]

I agree with both you and Azz's srtatement above.

 

In reality, to me it is sort of a sad commentary that such horrific treatment of these animals is going to be ancillary to what ultimately puts Vick away. Sort of like getting Capone on tax charges. The end result is almost empty in terms of how justice was applied and how people "feel" about the case (a little of the "liberal side of me coming out ).

 

Argue with that!

 

Is there something wrong with being liberal.....or is that another thread entirely

[McBoog]

I expect you're right about the more serious crime being the gambling, which is more an indictment of the current state of the law than anything else.

 

As for the rest of your post, you've slightly contradicted yourself in your second and third paragraphs, where you first say that there are Biblical references about animal (ab)use as if that was some kind of semi-justification. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way. Then in the third paragraph, you state, rightly, that the history of the human race's (ab)use of animals does not justify continued abuses, which is, IMO, correct. There is no excuse for this kind of thing, not in any culture or community and I don't give a rats ass about cultural or religious history. This is 2007. "People" indulging in hurting animals for fun are sub-humans and unfit to be included in the human race.

 

 

You're correct. I did not intend to justify our "biblical usage" of animals (food, clothing, burdon) as a means to unneccessary abuse and torture of another life, animal or human. There are those who do cross that line and try to say that God put animals here for our use, however we determine that use to be.

 

I, Ursa, am NOT one of them.

[McBoog]

Is there something wrong with being liberal.....or is that another thread entirely

 

BOTH (and a different forum too )

[Ursa Majoris]

I agree with both you and Azz's srtatement above.

 

In reality, to me it is sort of a sad commentary that such horrific treatment of these animals is going to be ancillary to what ultimately puts Vick away. Sort of like getting Capone on tax charges. The end result is almost empty in terms of how justice was applied and how people "feel" about the case (a little of the "liberal side of me coming out ).

 

Argue with that!

No argument here. The Capone analogy is a little flawed but I fully understand what you're getting at.

[budlitebrad]

Sort of like getting Capone on tax charges.

 

He hasn't been charged with that... yet.

 

With all this cash being passed around in paper bags, I'm sure my fellow accountants at the IRS are putting his books under a microscope.

[broncosn05]

OK Broncos:

 

I have a question for you. What is it about Vick that brings out this irrational and character damaging support? I don't get it!?!? Are you as passionate about EVERY accused person in the US. In the remote possibility that he somehow gets off, are you settng yourself up for the biggest, holier than thow, I told you so thread ever? You seem smart, and I just don't get it!

 

Here is a scenario for you, given everything we already know and a lot about who is going to step forward and what they are going to say in Vick's case, lets change the type of crime a tad.

 

Your child is kidnapped and sexually tortured. Not a few times, but repeatedly until your child dies. Witnesses and evidence uncovered during the investigation, show that it all clearly points to two or three sickos that even used medications to keep your child alive longer than he/she should have in order to extend the torture and sexual abuse. As part of the investigation, it is discovered that open gambling on how long your child was going to survive occured and that a 24/7 web camera had been set up in order to document the entire event and establish an actual death time. (This happens everyday in many parts of the world).

 

Now, these people are indicted, but not yet convicted. Would you be as passionate about the presumed innocence of those who killed your child in this fashion as you are about Vick's?

 

If your answer is "yes", i'd like to buy you a beer... Oh, and invite Jesus along because I've always wanted to meet him too.

Vick has been one of my favorite, if not favorite, player to watch for a while now. And as much as I try to sell myself on this "idea" that once a hood always a hood IMO it doesn't work that way with a guy who has been such a marketing success and had so many reasons not to. I don't need a thread.

 

Hell no. In another thread Swerski asked me if the molesting of a child is worst than dog fighting and I said definetely. I don't compare human suffering to the suffering of animals. And BTW they wouldn't make it to see the walls of court, but I would.

[Ursa Majoris]

IMO it doesn't work that way with a guy who has been such a marketing success and had so many reasons not to.

I already told you that you are taking a logical view - "Vick wouldn't do this because he's got millions....". Logic is not the driver here, money as the enabler of Vick's ghetto dreams is the driver.

[broncosn05]

I'm not naive, I know how the system works. Doesn't mean I can't ask why.

 

It's obvious by Blank's statement that he isn't supporting Vick. He's probably sitting there with his executives trying to figure out what option will cost him the least amount of money from sponsors, salary cap, etc. and support from fans. Either way, the longer he and Goodell let that insane thug wear a uniform, the more respect they lose from true football fans.

Vick told Goodell, Blank, and McKay he had nothing to do with it. He's got plenty of time if he wants to suspend him, he doesn't need to do it today.

 

I got the exact opposite. The due process sentence being the highlight, but voluntary leave of absence, with pay, is the choice many people on ESPN are saying should happen.

I mean I am happy these people are standing up against dog fighting....but what about all the other things humans involve animals in just to amuse us? Just a thought.

Mainly because dogs are known in America as pets.

[broncosn05]

I already told you that you are taking a logical view - "Vick wouldn't do this because he's got millions....". Logic is not the driver here, money as the enabler of Vick's ghetto dreams is the driver.

As I said in the other post I'm not buying into the once a hood always a hood. And why wouldn't it have been a more organized process if Vick was in there. Putting the carcuses in the backyard being the biggest idiocracy.

[Ursa Majoris]

Vick told Goodell, Blank, and McKay he had nothing to do with it. He's got plenty of time if he wants to suspend him, he doesn't need to do it today.

 

I got the exact opposite. The due process sentence being the highlight, but voluntary leave of absence, with pay, is the choice many people on ESPN are saying should happen.

 

Mainly because dogs are known in America as pets.

Dogs and several other animals have a special bond with humans in the civilized world. It is a mutually beneficial bond but humans have most definitely received the best half of the bargain. However, that's irrelevant in this context - dogfighting, much like bear-baiting and other cruel pastimes is a horrific hangover from a time when people had not developed as they (should) have now. Any driveling idiot can see that.

 

So how does it feel to be the last living supporter of a pre-neanderthal?

[Ursa Majoris]

As I said in the other post I'm not buying into the once a hood always a hood. And why wouldn't it have been a more organized process if Vick was in there. Putting the carcuses in the backyard being the biggest idiocracy.

Jeez, I don't know how much plainer it can get. You are putting yourself in Vick's shoes and although you seem to relish playing the idiot, you are clearly not an idiot. Why would it necessarily have been more organized with Vick? His IQ didn't rise when he got that scholarship and subsequent NFL contract. Maybe he thought "I own the yard, I fenced the yard, the yard can't be overlooked, so I'll bury the waste in the yard".

 

Athletics is littered with people who became rich through sports, grabbed their entire families from the 'hood and lit out to become good people - because that's what they always were. Sadly, Michael Vick is not one of them, same as Pacman, Ray-Ray and the rest. The money is not relevant in behavior. Being rich does not guarantee good judgment and behavior in the same way as being poor does not guarantee bad judgment and behavior.

[broncosn05]

Dogs and several other animals have a special bond with humans in the civilized world. It is a mutually beneficial bond but humans have most definitely received the best half of the bargain. However, that's irrelevant in this context - dogfighting, much like bear-baiting and other cruel pastimes is a horrific hangover from a time when people had not developed as they (should) have now. Any driveling idiot can see that.

 

So how does it feel to be the last living supporter of a pre-neanderthal?

I'm not saying dogfighting is wrong I'm just giving him a reason why dog fighting is found to be especially heinous in America, while other hobbies that harm animals for sport is not.

 

@ la pregunta.

Edited July 20, 2007 by broncosn05

[broncosn05]

Jeez, I don't know how much plainer it can get. You are putting yourself in Vick's shoes and although you seem to relish playing the idiot, you are clearly not an idiot. Why would it necessarily have been more organized with Vick? His IQ didn't rise when he got that scholarship and subsequent NFL contract. Maybe he thought "I own the yard, I fenced the yard, the yard can't be overlooked, so I'll bury the waste in the yard".

 

Athletics is littered with people who became rich through sports, grabbed their entire families from the 'hood and lit out to become good people - because that's what they always were. Sadly, Michael Vick is not one of them, same as Pacman, Ray-Ray and the rest. The money is not relevant in behavior. Being rich does not guarantee good judgment and behavior in the same way as being poor does not guarantee bad judgment and behavior.

Correct, I've never been brought up in the situation Vick was so I'm not sure I can really see through his eyes, per say, or understand why he would put the world on a tree limb so he could watch dog fights. You must get some type of respect for order and authority (coach) if you make it to the NFL and from all the sound bites of OTAs that I hear Vick is always saying "yes sir" to both Petrino and the QB coach, mostly Petrino. Comon ursa. He could've paid Bush to get them sent to Iraq, but instead said let's burry them in the backyard. I don't know it's hard to say that someone that is making more than a lot of people make in their lives in one year that he lacks common sense to that extreme.

 

PacMan is clearly a punk. He just doesn't seem to get it. It's almost like he wants to be the outlaw in the NFL. Ray isn't really a punk, IMO. I actually like the guy a lot and love the enthusiasm he has on the field. He seems like a great guy and comparing him to Pacman doesn't really do justice IMO. I'm sorry I'm not willing to agree that just because he grew up in the hood that he is capable of being so dumb. Sounds pretty "racist" to me.