Vick Indicted

[Bronco Billy]

even the best hunters occassionaly miss the kill shot and have to track the animal down to FINALLY kill it ....WHICH COULD TAKE HOURS ....the whole time that animal is suffering ....am i wrong ?

 

I guess if I had the choice of only the two options that ended my life, I'd rather be shot and then bleed to death a few hours later than be ripped apart by an animal.

 

That's just me, though.

[DMD]

I believe this thread is a record length.

 

As for hunting and fishing, one distinction ignored is that the animals/fish are living in their natural habitat and have the opportunity of evading the hunter/fisherman. It also takes no delight in the actual killing, as they say "the thrill is in the hunt". And fishing often uses catch and release. Hunting tries to kill the animal as quickly as possible and to minimize the suffering of the animal. Of course the animal/fish is often consumed as it has been for the existence of mankind as well as making other uses of the pelts, etc.

 

Dog-fighting is expressly done to breed dogs who's sole existence is to fight each other and preferably kill each other. The entirety of the life of the dog is focused on breeding and creating a killer and if they fall short, they are killed anyway. While all these activities may involve a moment of death for an animal (not counting catch and release), there is a tremendous amount of difference in how they are conducted, the life of the involved animals to the point of death and the intent and pleasure taken from the different activities.

 

I think the heart of the emotional response against dog fighting is not just the fact that the animals die (all animals will die including us) or even so much that it happens with them ripping each other apart (since that happens in nature everyday) but that these individuals get pleasure from observing the carnage and being an active participant in it. That's the biggest problem here IMO - it's the fact that these people facilitate the worst aspect of the natural world and gain some perverse pleasure in doing so.

[wirehairman]

no, dillweed, i'm talking about the distinction between shooting and shocking. when it comes to vick, you distinguish, saying shooting is so much more humane, in order to wring your hands over what a scumbag vick is. then when it comes to executing humans, you say you can't see any sense in distinguishing between them.

 

You guys are comparing apples and oranges.

 

A firing squad shot a criminal from approximately 25 or 30 paces, and even though they sought out the best marksmen, criminals were often wounded or completely missed, requiring a second or even third volley. With very few exceptions, electricution quickly dispatches a person. Thus, the determination that a firing squad was "cruel and unusual punishment".

 

I will go out on a limb and guess that dogs put down with a .22 are typically shot from only a few inches away, making it a foregone conclusion with no chance of missing. I cannot believe elecrocuting a dog, hanging an animal with neck muscles like a pit bull, or slamming a dog down repeatedly are quick, clean, or (by any definition) humane means of euthanizing and animal.

[Ursa Majoris]

I believe this thread is a record length.

 

As for hunting and fishing, one distinction ignored is that the animals/fish are living in their natural habitat and have the opportunity of evading the hunter/fisherman. It also takes no delight in the actual killing, as they say "the thrill is in the hunt". And fishing often uses catch and release. Hunting tries to kill the animal as quickly as possible and to minimize the suffering of the animal. Of course the animal/fish is often consumed as it has been for the existence of mankind as well as making other uses of the pelts, etc.

 

Dog-fighting is expressly done to breed dogs who's sole existence is to fight each other and preferably kill each other. The entirety of the life of the dog is focused on breeding and creating a killer and if they fall short, they are killed anyway. While all these activities may involve a moment of death for an animal (not counting catch and release), there is a tremendous amount of difference in how they are conducted, the life of the involved animals to the point of death and the intent and pleasure taken from the different activities.

Pretty much nailed it right there. I'm not a hunter myself and that's a discussion I'd rather not get in to but I can certainly live with the quote above.

[Bronco Billy]

You guys are comparing apples and oranges.

 

Yeah, we are, but Az apparently isn't capable of making that distinction.

 

And you realize of course that now that you have pointed out this completely obvious truth, you be subject to being called names by Az. Don't take it personally - he isn't capable of anything better.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Bronco Billy

[gbpfan1231]

Can't we all just agree that Mike Vick AKA Ron Mexico is just as big of a piece of crap as Pac Man (Mike just did not get caught as much)? Mike Vick is a hood and a piece of crap and in my opinion should be taken out in the same manner as the dogs. If the most inhumane was slamming heads into the concrete then let's slam Mike and his cornrolls into the pavement until he is dead.

 

This guy has done enough things wrong that evryone knows about and has probably done just as many if not more that we don't know about. He is a waste of space and should be eliminated.

[Bronco Billy]

let's slam Mike and his cornrolls into the pavement until he is dead.

 

psst - I know you're a Packer fan & all, so you don't get much chance learning this stuff, but it's cornrows, not cornrolls

 

Edited July 20, 2007 by Bronco Billy

[Ursa Majoris]

 

This has got to be the first time I have seem any use for a domestic terrorist organization! You think they would do some form of I-net release, fillming the whole thing, while wearing masks made of moss?

 

TOOOO F'N FUNNY!

 

Dunno, I was just hoping they'd maybe pour gasoline on him and set it afire.

[PantherDave]

My biggest worries is that it's continually dragged up to the surface all season long, which will for me, tarnish the season. I want this scumbag outta sight and outta mind when TC's hit as far as playing football this season. He should not be allowed near an NFL stadium this season-have a sack Goodell, Blank and the NFLPA

[Bronco Billy]

My biggest worries is that it's continually dragged up to the surface all season long, which will for me, tarnish the season. I want this scumbag outta sight and outta mind when TC's hit as far as playing football this season. He should not be allowed near an NFL stadium this season-have a sack Goodell, Blank and the NFLPA

 

Did you see that today the league & the NFLPA jointly put forth the suggestion that Vick be placed on/take leave until the situation shakes itself out? That puts it squarely in Vicks/Blank's court...

[gbpfan1231]

psst - I know you're a Packer fan & all, so you don't get much chance learning this stuff, but it's cornrows, not cornrolls

 

 

You know what... I don't really mind not knowing what they are. I think that bodes well for me???

[Azazello1313]

I'm pretty sure I would rather be shot in the head, rather than tortured all my life and then flung against the concrete.

 

I'm just funny that way.

 

boy you guys get real dramatic with the descriptions. the tortured life of fighting part, no one is arguing that isn't cruel to the animals. but as far as agonizing with colorful words over the method of putting an animal down, it just seems silly. we have one sentence in an indictment where one witness apparently says they killed a badly injured dog by slamming it to the ground or whatever. the only way that's going to kill a dog is if it's a severe, instantaneous head trauma (sorta like a bullet). boom, lights out. which of course is one of the simple tried and true methods for putting a suffering animal down. hunters, fishermen, farmers all do it in situations when it's the quickest and easiest way at hand to end the dying animal's struggle.

 

of all the things to get worked up about in this case, the particular methods these dirtbags allegedly chose when they finally put these poor animals out of their misery seems one of the stupidest.

[Bronco Billy]

You know what... I don't really mind not knowing what they are. I think that bodes well for me???

 

[WaterMan]

You think Vick is going to fall into that 1%?

 

He's not white like Cheney and in Office, but he does have alot of money like Cheney.

[irish]

psst - I know you're a Packer fan & all, so you don't get much chance learning this stuff, but it's cornrows, not cornrolls

 

 

[PantherDave]

Did you see that today the league & the NFLPA jointly put forth the suggestion that Vick be placed on/take leave until the situation shakes itself out? That puts it squarely in Vicks/Blank's court...

 

That explains the tidbit I heard that said Blank said he had to make a decision that would please some and anger others at the same time.

[Bronco Billy]

of all the things to get worked up about in this case, the particular methods these dirtbags allegedly chose when they finally put these poor animals out of their misery seems one of the stupidest.

 

Does your criteria of stupidity of arguments extend to your comparing the state's execution of murderers condemned to death to that of killing dogs for fun? I'd say that one annoints you the champ & therefore the prime authority on stupidity of arguments on this board.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Bronco Billy

[rattsass]

boy you guys get real dramatic with the descriptions. the tortured life of fighting part, no one is arguing that isn't cruel to the animals. but as far as agonizing with colorful words over the method of putting an animal down, it just seems silly. we have one sentence in an indictment where one witness apparently says they killed a badly injured dog by slamming it to the ground or whatever. the only way that's going to kill a dog is if it's a severe, instantaneous head trauma (sorta like a bullet). boom, lights out. which of course is one of the simple tried and true methods for putting a suffering animal down. hunters, fishermen, farmers all do it in situations when it's the quickest and easiest way at hand to end the dying animal's struggle.

 

of all the things to get worked up about in this case, the particular methods these dirtbags allegedly chose when they finally put these poor animals out of their misery seems one of the stupidest.

 

Occasionally I try to bring moments of clarity to a situation that is being twisted and dissected ad nuseum.

 

My point in that statement, which apparently escapes you, is that there is a huge difference between hunted animals, and dogs bred for fighting.

 

Hunters do not torture their prey, as you noted in hte above paragraph.

 

I just don't understand people that think animal cruelty is alright, and the comparison to hunting is ludicrous.

 

There. I used a bunch of words and said the same thing. Get it now?

[Ursa Majoris]

of all the things to get worked up about in this case, the particular methods these dirtbags allegedly chose when they finally put these poor animals out of their misery seems one of the stupidest.

I don't know about that. Given the variations used (slamming, electrocution, hanging, etc) it seems to me that if this was a neutral experience for the person putting the dog down, they'd do it in one way, the most efficient for them, whatever it was. To go to all the effort of hanging or electrocution or repeated slamming on concrete seems to me to carry with it an enjoyment of the task.

[Savage Beatings]

Can't we all just agree that Mike Vick AKA Ron Mexico is just as big of a piece of crap as Pac Man (Mike just did not get caught as much)?

 

That's what's driving this entire thread... the fact that we all CAN'T agree on what most of us see as an ovious truth... that Vick is indeed a big piece of crap. Some here do not want to see that truth. It's both entertaining and maddening at the same time.

[DMD]

One of the fascinating aspects to this is that it has brought to light the cruelty and yet popularity of dog-fighting. It has polarized people so that certainly a big majority come down considering it a tragedy and a sick sign of how some derive their pleasure. And yet, you have to know with 100% certainty, that this will all make it MORE attractive to the thug element and those who want to emulate it. The average person finds it all abhorent and senseless and sick. But it's going to be all the cooler to the wannabe thugs out there including young guys who want to look "tough" and cool. I guarantee that.

[Azazello1313]

One of the fascinating aspects to this is that it has brought to light the cruelty and yet popularity of dog-fighting. It has polarized people so that certainly a big majority come down considering it a tragedy and a sick sign of how some derive their pleasure. And yet, you have to know with 100% certainty, that this will all make it MORE attractive to the thug element and those who want to emulate it. The average person finds it all abhorent and senseless and sick. But it's going to be all the cooler to the wannabe thugs out there including young guys who want to look "tough" and cool. I guarantee that.

 

that is probably true, and it is a sad irony that by going after a high profile dog-fighter like vick, they will probably increase the underground appeal of the "sport".

[bushwacked]

Corn rolls....

[broncosn05]

We'll see? You actually think he may not be guilty?

Right now, yes.

 

Right now, I am picturing broncos asleep at his computer, head splayed out on the keyboard and drool pooling around his mouth. His twisted fingers, cramped from typing so furiously today, twitching imagined responses to the dream Huddlers in his head.

 

Like an old hound dog, dreaming of chasing squirrels.

I picture myself that way all the time.

No one has any thoughts on the facts that: 1) Vick held the license for the kennel, 2) the connection between the word "badnewz" as the name of his kennel and his proclamation on his website that is the nickname of his hometown, 3) The operation was run at a Vick-owned residence, 4) what had to be significant monthly costs to buy so many dogs and then maintain them, that Vick may be the money man and possibly the head honcho in this whole operation, rather than just one of the dog owners/bettors?

Vick's defense could be that he had no idea what they were using the money for. If he was sold on the idea that this was the parties involved wouldn't these costs be expected? I have a feeling turning a kennel into a dogfighting organization wouldn't be that expensive, figuring by the amount of the purses.

It may be worse than that. I heard one league reporter on the radio say that not only is Vick the mastermind of the enterprise, but that possibly in the hundreds of NFL players were also involved in the sport. He claimed that the feds went after Vick since he was the "kingpin" of this operation, much like they would go after the druglord of a cartel. This thing is like a powderkeg, and has the potential to be disasterous for the NFL if what he was saying was true. This thing could get a whole lot worse.

There was no mastermind of this "enterprise. There are much bigger players than Vick. Hopefully you know that.

But Vick's actions are different. I don't care that he was raised around it. It's illegal & in our culture we know it's wrong. The "But everyone else is doing it" is an excuse when you're a little kid, but a grown man knows better. The sick & perverse ways he had dogs dispatched is just cruel.

I hope, hope, that was not a shot at me.

 

I guess you've never heard Vick give an interview or speak publicly. The man is definitely not the brightest bulb in the box, if he wanted to fight a war of wits with anyone he'd be in a battle without any ammo. Would he be stupid enough to do something like this and not consider the consequences? OOOHHHHHHHHHHH yeah he would!

I disagree. Not many players sound very smart. Doesn't mean they lack common sense.

[bushwacked]