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alexgaddis

Dateline NBC

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But how many men who have been caught on that show have no criminal background and no history of sexually deviant behavior. You can't arrest someone you "think" is going to commit a criminal act, when you have no history on that person. I understand that you see a side of this that not many of us do, but for me it's pretty simple. Talking in a chat room is not cause for arrest. Why? Because they are not arresting these men for chatting (granted, they are being charged with having sexually explicit conversations with a minor) Dateline, or law enforcemnt could find out the identities through internet service providers, but that's not what is happening. The incite these men to come to the house and then they arrest them for the purpose of entertainment. Its a pretty gray area if you ask me.

 

I see your point, but I disagree with it. I don't agree that the police incite these offenders to come to the house. I will bet you that if most, if not all, of these men had a thorough evaluation and they were being honest, they have fantasized about adolescent kids for a long time. I bet they have been frequenting chatrooms for a long time. I bet many of them have already have inappropriate sexual contact with another adolescent because taking the risk of coming to a house is a big step. Almost no offender simply goes from stumbling into a chatroom to showing up at an adolescent's house very quickly.

 

Pull back for a minute--what would it take for the police to incite you to come to an adolescent's home in order to have sex? What means could they use? Seriously, think about this for a moment.

 

I'm betting there is no way that this ever happens with you. This is because you are not a sex offender. You haven't gone through steps of fantasizing about a teen. Maybe moving toward looking in catalogues, but that's not enough after awhile. Maybe watching your neighbor's daughter or your daughter's friends and accidentally bumping into them or walking in on them in the bathroom. After awhile, that's not enough. You find some child porn sites on line and you know, that's not really hurting anyone because the pictures are there already, anyway. After awhile, that's not enough. You start frequenting adolescent chatrooms and just talking to them. Eventually, the conversation turns sexual and wow, this is great. Unfortunately, that's not enough after awhile. Keep in mind, all along the way you are rationalizing about how you are not doing anything wrong. Your cognitive distortions are getting stronger and stronger. Finally, you're to the point you're ready to meet one of the adolescents. And eventually you do. And you have sex with her. And it's okay because you were gentle. Because she really initiated it. Because sometimes, adolescents are more like adults than others think. Or any of a number of other cognitive distortions that I've seen. And in the offender's wake, is a broken child.

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But how many men who have been caught on that show have no criminal background and no history of sexually deviant behavior. You can't arrest someone you "think" is going to commit a criminal act, when you have no history on that person. I understand that you see a side of this that not many of us do, but for me it's pretty simple. Talking in a chat room is not cause for arrest. Why? Because they are not arresting these men for chatting (granted, they are being charged with having sexually explicit conversations with a minor) Dateline, or law enforcemnt could find out the identities through internet service providers, but that's not what is happening. The incite these men to come to the house and then they arrest them for the purpose of entertainment. Its a pretty gray area if you ask me.

 

Ain't nothin' gray about it IMO. If they didn't meet up with the 13 year old actress, they'd more than likely find a real 13 year old who is unprotected. And how innocent is it when they show up with sex toys and/or condoms? They deserve to be arrested and if I had my way I'd beat the hell out of them and piss on their wounds.

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Ain't nothin' gray about it IMO. If they didn't meet up with the 13 year old actress, they'd more than likely find a real 13 year old who is unprotected. And how innocent is it when they show up with sex toys and/or condoms? They deserve to be arrested and if I had my way I'd beat the hell out of them and piss on their wounds.

 

 

The thing is, many of these offenders are not wanting to hurt the child, they are wanting to love the child (at least that's the cognitive distortion). Clearly, something is wrong with them, but to date, no one knows what creates a sex offender. Many of them really don't believe that they are hurting a child. What they are doing is not malicious...in their distorted view.

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I see your point, but I disagree with it. I don't agree that the police incite these offenders to come to the house. I will bet you that if most, if not all, of these men had a thorough evaluation and they were being honest, they have fantasized about adolescent kids for a long time. I bet they have been frequenting chatrooms for a long time. I bet many of them have already have inappropriate sexual contact with another adolescent because taking the risk of coming to a house is a big step. Almost no offender simply goes from stumbling into a chatroom to showing up at an adolescent's house very quickly.

 

Pull back for a minute--what would it take for the police to incite you to come to an adolescent's home in order to have sex? What means could they use? Seriously, think about this for a moment.

 

I'm betting there is no way that this ever happens with you. This is because you are not a sex offender. You haven't gone through steps of fantasizing about a teen. Maybe moving toward looking in catalogues, but that's not enough after awhile. Maybe watching your neighbor's daughter or your daughter's friends and accidentally bumping into them or walking in on them in the bathroom. After awhile, that's not enough. You find some child porn sites on line and you know, that's not really hurting anyone because the pictures are there already, anyway. After awhile, that's not enough. You start frequenting adolescent chatrooms and just talking to them. Eventually, the conversation turns sexual and wow, this is great. Unfortunately, that's not enough after awhile. Keep in mind, all along the way you are rationalizing about how you are not doing anything wrong. Your cognitive distortions are getting stronger and stronger. Finally, you're to the point you're ready to meet one of the adolescents. And eventually you do. And you have sex with her. And it's okay because you were gentle. Because she really initiated it. Because sometimes, adolescents are more like adults than others think. Or any of a number of other cognitive distortions that I've seen. And in the offender's wake, is a broken child.

You certinaly paint a vivid picture, and I think you are right that a reasonable person could not be coerced into going. I suppose its more of the television aspect that bothers me. It is in NBC's interests for people to show up at that house. As I already linked, Stone Phillips admitted that it is the "bait" that initiates sexual discussion at times. That's the first step in subverting the system. The law says that the idea must originate with the perpitrator. By your account, no matter what NBC might do to initate the situation, a sexual encounter was always on the offenders mind.

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Ain't nothin' gray about it IMO. If they didn't meet up with the 13 year old actress, they'd more than likely find a real 13 year old who is unprotected. And how innocent is it when they show up with sex toys and/or condoms? They deserve to be arrested and if I had my way I'd beat the hell out of them and piss on their wounds.

Well, clearly, the guys who show up with toys and condoms, they deserve what they get, but that's not really my point.

 

IUnta has plenty of experience with criminal offenders and I respect his opinion. I am working from the assumption that this type of crime is like any other: buying drugs, stealing, scalping, whatever. I think that given the proper circumstances people could be coerced into doing many things. He make a valid point, this crime is not like those others. That these men most likely show a pattern of behavior, their appearance on the show being the culmination of many years of progression. I get that part, but the principle still seems valid to me. That law enforcement officials ought not to tempt people to break the law, particularly when there's a profit motive involved.

Edited by billay

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You certinaly paint a vivid picture, and I think you are right that a reasonable person could not be coerced into going. I suppose its more of the television aspect that bothers me. It is in NBC's interests for people to show up at that house. As I already linked, Stone Phillips admitted that it is the "bait" that initiates sexual discussion at times. That's the first step in subverting the system. The law says that the idea must originate with the perpitrator. By your account, no matter what NBC might do to initate the situation, a sexual encounter was always on the offenders mind.

 

Clearly, NBC sensationalizes the situation--they are all about ratings and advertising dollars. They could do so much more with this series including educating the public about how the thought processes of a sex offender, how to really safeguard a child, etc. I admit, I watch many of these shows. I find the immensely interesting because I look for the distortions. I look for the rationalizations. I guarantee you that most of the offenders you see really believe the only thing wrong with what they are doing is that it is against the law.

 

And yes, I really believe that if the offender did not stumble into the bait, he would have found a teen and had sex with her/him.

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I can see billay's point that it seems a little grotesque the way Dateline trots this crap out for pure shock value. Always with some tagline like... "Coming up next, on Dateline: What you don't know about your kids internet habits... and how it... just... might... KILL THEM. Tune in ay 8:00."

 

But, untateve makes some really salient points. It doesn't seem like entrapment to me. Those dudes are already trolling the internet chatrooms, looking for these teenagers to hook up with. And his description of the incremental behavior increases really hits the nail on the head, to me. A guy is just not going to end up going to some teenagers house to have sex with them, unless the ball has already been rolling for some time.

 

Not to derail the conversation, unta, but is there anything that works for rehabbing these guys? What sort of therapies or approaches work best? Obviously, incarceration doesn't work as a deterrent, but are there any alternatives? I mean, besides a vengeful castration.

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Not to derail the conversation, unta, but is there anything that works for rehabbing these guys? What sort of therapies or approaches work best? Obviously, incarceration doesn't work as a deterrent, but are there any alternatives? I mean, besides a vengeful castration.

 

My agency conducts sex offender treatment (not me, as that is a complete specialty on its own). The best treatment at this point in time is weekly, group therapy. However, I'm coming to believe that no one is ever "cured", despite what I occasionally read in the literature. I think some get to the point of a recovering alcoholic. They know what their triggers are. They have a certain level of insight into their cognitive distortions. They know they must avoid certain situations and avoid a variety of activities (e.g., cannot own a computer or have access to the internet). They come to have understanding of the harm they cause. But I think the desire is always there. I don't believe it ever goes away. Just like a recovering alcoholic would like to have a drink but knows he can't. For some, they will likely have to attend group therapy for the rest of their lives.

 

My agency currently runs 4 juvenile sex offender groups and 5 adult sex offender groups. Even with weekly treatment, zealous probation officers, sex offender registration, and other safeguards, every year we get a couple who violate and end up in prison.

 

And vengeful castration probably wouldn't stop some of these offenders. Remember, for some, what they do, they do out of love. Unless you cut off their hands and rip out their tongues as well.

 

edit for grammar.

Edited by untateve

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Well, clearly, the guys who show up with toys and condoms, they deserve what they get, but that's not really my point.

 

IUnta has plenty of experience with criminal offenders and I respect his opinion. I am working from the assumption that this type of crime is like any other: buying drugs, stealing, scalping, whatever. I think that given the proper circumstances people could be coerced into doing many things. He make a valid point, this crime is not like those others. That these men most likely show a pattern of behavior, their appearance on the show being the culmination of many years of progression. I get that part, but the principle still seems valid to me. That law enforcement officials ought not to tempt people to break the law, particularly when there's a profit motive involved.

 

My apologies for coming across like I was condemning your opinion billay. I just get a little heated on this subject. I too agree and totally respect unta's professional responses in this thread. That's what makes the tailgate awesome. If you ever need some advice or someone's professional opinion, chances are you'll find it/them here.

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My apologies for coming across like I was condemning your opinion billay. I just get a little heated on this subject. I too agree and totally respect unta's professional responses in this thread. That's what makes the tailgate awesome. If you ever need some advice or someone's professional opinion, chances are you'll find it/them here.

Not necessary, but appreciated.

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And vengeful castration probably wouldn't stop some of these offenders. Remember, for some, what they do, they do out of love. Unless you cut off their hands and rip out their tongues as well.

 

When I read this, I believe you. But it's such a Sega!ty reality, that it's easy to want to just sweep the fact of their humanity under the carpet and want to hurt them.

 

Thanks for the insight... your job sounds very taxing to me.

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When I read this, I believe you. But it's such a Sega!ty reality, that it's easy to want to just sweep the fact of their humanity under the carpet and want to hurt them.

 

Thanks for the insight... your job sounds very taxing to me.

 

I generally shut it off, completely, once I leave for home. My wife almost never hears about work, clients I see, etc. I get home and work is gone.

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I generally shut it off, completely, once I leave for home. My wife almost never hears about work, clients I see, etc. I get home and work is gone.

 

Well, we appreciate you going back to work at home. :D

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But, untateve makes some really salient points. It doesn't seem like entrapment to me. Those dudes are already trolling the internet chatrooms, looking for these teenagers to hook up with. And his description of the incremental behavior increases really hits the nail on the head, to me. A guy is just not going to end up going to some teenagers house to have sex with them, unless the ball has already been rolling for some time.

Bingo...these are bad people looking for young women to violate...

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I generally shut it off, completely, once I leave for home. My wife almost never hears about work, clients I see, etc. I get home and work is gone.

 

Good.

 

A propos of nothing, I just got back from helping deliver a healthy baby boy: 10 lbs 13 oz. :D . The parents were so excited, the kid was healthy, the mom was healthy... just a really joyous occassion. It felt good, because this thread was kinda bumming me out.

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Dateline has stopped reporting varity and now is a one stop shop for online predators.

 

I can't stand that show anymore, how about something else for a change. Really they should consider a name change.

 

Looks like they are about to go after identity thieves...

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Like Unta, having worked with adolescent sex offenders, I've been interested in this show. I agree with Billay that NBC is in it for themselves. Every single media outlet is in it for ratings and profits. Someone at CBS criticizing NBC for selfishness is the pot and kettle. I'm not OK with the way all media outlets sensationalize their news. Its specifically designed to make the consumer afraid or entertained. TCAP has both - fear for our own loved ones and entertained at watching some bad guy "get what's coming to them" in a sting operation.

 

Perhaps having the experience with similar individuals makes me not care. It is an important message, because a young life is significantly scarred - essentially for life when molested. A statistic was thrown around by some of the higher learned people I worked with that a predator will willingly ofend a dozen or more times before they are caught - on average. I worked with some children as young as 8 who had offended at least a few times. Some teens, at least 10 times. So, I can only imagine what an adult has done. I know that despite our sincere best efforts in a long-term residential treatment center, most of the young predators I worked with will willingly ofend again. I knew many who did before I left. Some who fled the treatment center, some with their fellow residents.

 

It was partially this sad realization that made me abandon that line of work.

 

In the balance, IMO, we're better off as a society getting this message out to families and hopefully adding a level of deterrent to free predators - even if we have some reservations about the way NBC is delivering that message.

Edited by The Irish Doggy

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I'd beat the hell out of them and piss on their wounds.

Urine is sterile and in emergency situations can actually be used to clean wounds. Now, taking a crap on their wounds is a different story...

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Urine is sterile and in emergency situations can actually be used to clean wounds. Now, taking a crap on their wounds is a different story...

 

Unless you have a UTI. :D

 

:D @ taking a crap in the wound. Whenever somebody at work wants to cut a corner in the interests of saving time/effort, my standard line is: "Why don't I go get you a chair so you can just take a dump right in the wound?"

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You can't arrest someone you "think" is going to commit a criminal act, when you have no history on that person.

 

Wow... you really need to think about what you just typed. You couldn't be more wrong than if you tied up and tossed irewish's salad.

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Wow... you really need to think about what you just typed. You couldn't be more wrong than if you tied up and tossed irewish's salad.

In regards to this particiular issue, and given unta's testimony, I might be inclinded to soften my view, but in general principle, the principle still holds. The police cannot arrest you for something they "think" you might do based upon their speculation alone.

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The police cannot arrest you for something they "think" you might do based upon their speculation alone.

 

Called the president and say you want him dead.

 

Go get a guns and ammo and inquire about getting your boyfriend killed.

 

Ask a cop if he'll overlook that ticket if you maybe bought his ink pen for $100.

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Called the president and say you want him dead.

 

Go get a guns and ammo and inquire about getting your boyfriend killed.

 

Ask a cop if he'll overlook that ticket if you maybe bought his ink pen for $100.

 

 

The police cannot arrest you for something they "think" you might do based upon their speculation alone.

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