MikesVikes Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Randy Moss scored 23 TDs that broke Jerry Rice's record of 22 in 1987. Everytime that is mentioned, it is also mentioned that Rice's record was made in a strike shortened season. Does that make the record breaking year Moss had less incredible? And if the answer is yes, why didn't Jerry Rice score more than 22 tds in any of the other 20 seasons that he played in that weren't strike shortened? Why haven't other receivers broken the record when there's only been a few strike shortened seasons in NFL history? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) The best explination has to be all the rules changes that have happened since Rice was in his prime - including rules protecting the QB and the seriously ratched up focus on defensive holding beyond 5 yards. Edited January 30, 2008 by Duchess Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Randy Moss scored 23 TDs that broke Jerry Rice's record of 22 in 1987. Everytime that is mentioned, it is also mentioned that Rice's record was made in a strike shortened season. Does that make the record breaking year Moss had less incredible? And if the answer is yes, why didn't Jerry Rice score more than 22 tds in any of the other 20 seasons that he played in that weren't strike shortened? Why haven't other receivers broken the record when there's only been a few strike shortened seasons in NFL history? If Moss repeats or even comes close to repeating 23, then your argument will be valid. However, if he drops back to the mid to high teens (nothing to shake a stick at, mind you), then it simply means that both had seasons where everything broke right for them in terms of TDs. It's just that Rice had 4 less games to play than Moss and it would hardly be a stretch to think that he would have had at least 23 if he had 4 more games to play considering that he averaged nearly 2 per game. Â For me the fact that NE kept pouring it on in very decided games during a major stretch of the season taints the record a bit as well. We've discussed at length the difference between Payton's and Brady's. Now, a record is a record, but it's only as impressive as each person lets it be. For me, I'm still more impressed by both Rice's and Payton's achievements. One because of the shortened season and the other because very, very few of his TDs were scored in garbage time and he basically took the last week off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 If Moss repeats or even comes close to repeating 23, then your argument will be valid. However, if he drops back to the mid to high teens (nothing to shake a stick at, mind you), then it simply means that both had seasons where everything broke right for them in terms of TDs. It's just that Rice had 4 less games to play than Moss and it would hardly be a stretch to think that he would have had at least 23 if he had 4 more games to play considering that he averaged nearly 2 per game.For me the fact that NE kept pouring it on in very decided games during a major stretch of the season taints the record a bit as well. We've discussed at length the difference between Payton's and Brady's. Now, a record is a record, but it's only as impressive as each person lets it be. For me, I'm still more impressed by both Rice's and Payton's achievements. One because of the shortened season and the other because very, very few of his TDs were scored in garbage time and he basically took the last week off. Â Â A record is a record but these are valid points. Watching Dallas have another season marred by drops made me really appreciate even more then ever how tremendous of a WR Moss is though. He has the best hands I have ever seen. The guy is like a spider web. If the ball gets near him it sticks to him. An argument can be made for Chris carter and Rice as far as better hands and you could be right but Moss was just outstanding this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramhock Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Randy Moss does not deserve to be mentioned with Jerry Rice, IMO the greatest football player ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 The fact that the one season that Rice scored 22 tds was a strike shortened season raises the issue that why was that? The following year he scored 9 in a full 16 games. I imagine that Rice was in better game shape with no training camp in the strike year vs. the players defending him. That would not be a stretch of the imagination as Rice was usually in very good shape at all times. Â Through first 10 years Moss has scored .81 Tds/game and Rice scored .84 Tds/game. Â Career totals for both Moss has scored .81Tds/game and Rice scored .65 Tds/game. Â While playing for the Raiders Moss scored .38 Tds/game and Rice scored .33 Tds/game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 its rice for now imho  moss will have to have a bunch of great years still and a few rings before supplanting jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 Randy Moss does not deserve to be mentioned with Jerry Rice, IMO the greatest football player ever. Â Moss is no Jerry Rice. I can agree with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fballfreak Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Randy Moss scored 23 TDs that broke Jerry Rice's record of 22 in 1987. Everytime that is mentioned, it is also mentioned that Rice's record was made in a strike shortened season. Does that make the record breaking year Moss had less incredible? And if the answer is yes, why didn't Jerry Rice score more than 22 tds in any of the other 20 seasons that he played in that weren't strike shortened? Why haven't other receivers broken the record when there's only been a few strike shortened seasons in NFL history?   No comparison  Rice >* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfish247 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) 1st 10 years of career...  Rice = 13275 rec yds, 131 rec TDs Moss = 12193 rec yds, 124 rec TDs  Rice is the best due to his longevity. Aside from that, I'll take Moss if I'm drafting the two WRs tomorrow.  My reasoning (and please everyone, this is in all due respect to Rice. Rice's accomplishments are outstanding, great but there are quite a few factors that led to Rice's ridiculous first 10-12 years)...  1) QBs... Rice's QBs for the first 12 years of his career were Steve Young and Joe Montana. Two first ballot HOFers and arguably two of the best of all-time. Moss's QBs (minimum of 8 starts)... Cunningham, Culpepper, Jeff George, Kerry Collins, Aaron Brooks, and Tom Brady. Intermingled in there was significant time served by some God-forsaken backups... Brad Johnson, Todd Bouman, Spergeon Wynn, Gus Frerotte, and Andrew Walter.  2) Coaches... Rice... George Seifert and Bill Walsh. Revolutionary coaches. Teams today still copy what they do. Teams today are still using their assistants and quality control people as HCs and high level assistants. Moss... Denny Green, Mike Tice, Norv Turner, Art Shell, and BB. Aside from BB, not a HOF coach among them. Also, they have hardly left such an indelible legacy on the order of Bill Walsh. There's also a few OCs that went on to other teams as an offensive guru-type HC to mixed results.  3) Supporting casts... Rice... Craig, Rathman, Clark, Jones, Watters. Not to mention the countless All-Pro and Pro Bowl seasons from various OL... Guy McIntyre, Randy Cross etc. Moss... aside from Cris Carter there's really nothing to speak of here. Even the Cris Carter argument is a bit flawed considering that Carter's career was essentially fading AND Moss' best season with the Vikes came in 2003... 2 years after Carter left the Vikes.  4) Success of their teams... Rice... the Niners success is well documented. They built a dynasty. Very successful. However people forget that the Niners had arguably their best season (and arguably one of the best seasons ever by any team) BEFORE Rice was even drafted. 1985... 15-1, 2nd in points and yards scored, 1st in points allowed, 1st team ever to get 15 wins in the regular season, Super Bowl. Moss... before he arrived the Vikings had some success in the 90s. But the 90s for the Vikes will always be remembered for 1998... 15 wins (3rd team ever to get to 15 wins), most total points in a season, and a lousy missed FG away from the Super Bowl. Since then the Vikes have been on decline (new HCs, carousel of QBs, new ownership... culminating in a big boat party). The Raiders stunk before he arrived (carousel of HCs, carousel of QBs, lousy ownership) and stink today.  5) Impact... Rice... this is a culmination of the above reasons. Rice was drafted into a system and a dynasty conceived and started well before he was drafted. The system is still in wide use today to outstanding results. A system that has allowed a myriad of WRs, QBs, and coaches to be very successful. He wasn't taken nearly as high as Rice but what if the Niners had passed on Rice and taken Andre Reed in '85? A guy who finished his career in the top 10 of every major receiving category and had a pretty long career. Moss... again a culmination of the above reasons. No WR, ever, had such an immediate impact as Moss. After torching the Packers in his rookie season (the Packers had quite the team in the mid/late 90s), the Packers took 4 DBs in their 99 draft including 3 in the first 3 rounds. No WR, ever, has put up his stats with so little in support over his first 10 years. There was no dynasty in place before he arrived. The players and coaches that played with Moss haven't gone on to long illustrious careers without Moss. Draft pundits and scouts don't talk about drafting the next Jerry Rice or Marvin Harrison, they talk about finding/drafting the next Randy Moss.  Rice is great. But it's hard to argue against the fact that he was ALSO a cog in a machine.  It's like comparing Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders. Emmitt is a great player but was a cog in a machine. Barry, great player but cog in a machine? Yeah, not so much.  Now that Moss has had one year as a cog in the NE machine, IMO, it makes the numbers that he put up over his first 10 years AND his immediate impact that much more impressive because his first few seasons were played with a bunch of pretty average to below-average teams. In '98, consider for a moment if the Titans, Rams, or Patriots had taken Moss. All 3 teams have reached Super Bowls, all 3 teams have had relatively stable QB situations, all 3 teams have had pretty stable coaching situations. That ~1000yd and 7 TD difference in Rice's/Moss' first 10 years all of a sudden doesn't seem so big. Edited January 30, 2008 by kingfish247 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 1st 10 years of career... Rice = 13275 rec yds, 131 rec TDs Moss = 12193 rec yds, 124 rec TDs  Rice is the best due to his longevity. Aside from that, I'll take Moss if I'm drafting the two WRs tomorrow. No, Rice is best because he put up those ginormous numbers in a era when DBs had more latitude to stop WRs physically and Rice was a complete player. See if you can find an instance of anyone talking about Rice taking a play off or showing alligator arms across the middle at any time in his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF409ers Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Randy Moss does not deserve to be mentioned with Jerry Rice, IMO the greatest football player ever. Â +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinpig Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 again we try to compare between eras...again nobody is right... Â but wrong are those who think Rice and Moss are not "in the same league"...best of their day... Â there is one FACT: Â the NFL record for TDs in a season is 23 TDs by Randy Moss... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramhock Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) If you were lucky enough to watch both of these players, Rice is the much better football player. Stats do not assist in these types of comparisons, but if we're gonna use them let's use all of them. Â Moss: 10-year rushing stats - 159 yards, 0 TDs Rice: 12-year rushing stats - 624 yards, 10 TDs Edited January 30, 2008 by Ramhock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 Here's my point. In one season of Rice's career he scored 22 TDs. Since that year was a strike shortened season, there should be some type of asterisk behind anyone that breaks it. Jerry himself never scored more than 22 TDs in any of his other seasons. Nobody else has ever done it whether it being in recent years or in a different era. Â Jerry scored 17 TDs in his second best season. Moss did that twice, including his rookie year. No asterisk should be given in this instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goopster24 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 If you were lucky enough to watch both of these players, Rice is the much better football player. Stats do not assist in these types of comparisons, but if we're gonna use them let's use all of them. Moss: 10-year rushing stats - 159 yards, 0 TDs Rice: 12-year rushing stats - 624 yards, 10 TDs  Give me a break. Rice is better than Moss in many people's eyes, sure. But to point to that as the reason is stupid IMO.  He's a receiver. Sure, Rice could do a little more but Moss isn't asked to do that. Moss is a deep threat and has been the best at that for his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) No one in history ran a better slant then Jerry Rice..I like the way Driver runs it as far as current guys but Rice was ridiculous. One small move after the catch and he was gone Edited January 30, 2008 by whomper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROYALWITCHEESE Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 If Moss repeats or even comes close to repeating 23, then your argument will be valid. However, if he drops back to the mid to high teens (nothing to shake a stick at, mind you), then it simply means that both had seasons where everything broke right for them in terms of TDs. Â What does this have to do with anything? Rice only came close to 20 again one time at 17, if you can call that close. Moss has already done that twice, and it would be safe to assume he will reach it again shold he stay in NE. Not eveybody plays with Joe Montanas and Steve Youngs. Now that Moss is with Brady, should he choose to stay, he will throttle Rice's TD numbers on a yearly basis... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROYALWITCHEESE Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Randy Moss does not deserve to be mentioned with Jerry Rice, IMO the greatest football player ever. Â Â Hmm. By that logic, NO ONE would be mentioned with him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egret Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 There's no way Emmitt is better than Barry. Â Oops. Sorry, wrong argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) it would be safe to assume he will reach it again shold he stay in NE. Â Â Yeah, just like P Manning has come so close to repeating his 49 TD season... Â Just like how close every 2000 yd rusher comes to hitting 2000 yds rushing again the following season. Edited January 30, 2008 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF409ers Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Give me a break. Rice is better than Moss in many people's eyes, sure. But to point to that as the reason is stupid IMO.  He's a receiver. Sure, Rice could do a little more but Moss isn't asked to do that. Moss is a deep threat and has been the best at that for his career.   What does this have to do with anything? Rice only came close to 20 again one time at 17, if you can call that close. Moss has already done that twice, and it would be safe to assume he will reach it again shold he stay in NE. Not eveybody plays with Joe Montanas and Steve Youngs. Now that Moss is with Brady, should he choose to stay, he will throttle Rice's TD numbers on a yearly basis...  Here are some Career Receiving Stats  REC YDS AVG TD's  Rice 1549 22895 14.8 197  Moss 774 12193 15.8 124  Check out the Individual Records for Receiving - Not sure there is much of an argument for comparison IMO.  http://www.nfl.com/history/randf/records/indiv/receiving Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTSuper7 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Rice's 22 TD season has to be considered a little fluky, considering he never came close to matching that 2 TDs per game pace again. It makes me think about MJD's 16 TDs last season and how unlikely that was for a guy mired in RBBC-land. Since we'll never know whether or not Rice would have eclipsed 23 TDs if he played a full season that year (extremely likely, but he could have gotten hurt or something), we have to put Rice's numbers with the asterisk since his season was the anomaly (being strike-shortened). This takes nothing away from his accomplishment, which is still amazing (averaging almost two TD catches per game). Â As for who the best is of all time, save your breath. There is no objective answer to that question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 frankly, i believed that moss had the potential to surpass rice........if he had rice's work ethic. i understand the points made re: suppoorting casts, but rice was still a superior player... he did more of everything at a high level (ie: route running, downfield blocking, imo better hands than moss). moss has the edge on streak patterns, but rice was still up there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 frankly, i believed that moss had the potential to surpass rice........if he had rice's work ethic. i understand the points made re: suppoorting casts, but rice was still a superior player... he did more of everything at a high level (ie: route running, downfield blocking, imo better hands than moss). moss has the edge on streak patterns, but rice was still up there   +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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