detlef Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 The point of the analogy GTS is that an entity other than Calipari and even Memphis (The NCAA Clearinghouse) has all the responsibility to clear high school students before they step on campus. Once in college, if grades are being doctored, that falls on the school's compliance department. Now the IHSA is investigating Simeon high school for academic fraud. According to the linked article, the transcripts of Rose and 3 other players were changed to get them eligible for college. But I suppose Cal orchestrated the whole deal, right? Cal must be a cheater OK, I'm just going to start talking crazy right now. I mean, really, really crazy right now. Do you think there's any chance at all, even the slightest, that Memphis saw the initial grades and explained that "something was going to need to be done because those grades won't get him qualified" and then, when they magically improved, they said, "thanks, that'll do." You need to understand something. We all realize that this went down in HS. That link is not new news to any of us. From the moment the story about how SAT scores were fact and that HS grades were changed, we all pretty much figured out that all this happened before he went to Memphis. I mean, it's rather obvious, no? My guess is that, once a player is on the radar, a school is tracking his grades to make sure he'll make the cut. Now, I'm just spit-balling again here. But any chance some schools. Schools that do a better job of pretending that they care about academics will notice that a kid's GPA jumps surprisingly or he gets a 900 the second time he takes the SAT when he got a 450 the first time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 OK, I'm just going to start talking crazy right now. I mean, really, really crazy right now. Do you think there's any chance at all, even the slightest, that Memphis saw the initial grades and explained that "something was going to need to be done because those grades won't get him qualified" and then, when they magically improved, they said, "thanks, that'll do." You need to understand something. We all realize that this went down in HS. That link is not new news to any of us. From the moment the story about how SAT scores were fact and that HS grades were changed, we all pretty much figured out that all this happened before he went to Memphis. I mean, it's rather obvious, no? My guess is that, once a player is on the radar, a school is tracking his grades to make sure he'll make the cut. Now, I'm just spit-balling again here. But any chance some schools. Schools that do a better job of pretending that they care about academics will notice that a kid's GPA jumps surprisingly or he gets a 900 the second time he takes the SAT when he got a 450 the first time? Yes, I think there's a chance of that. I also think there's the same chance that dozens of other colleges are doing the same thing right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Yes, I think there's a chance of that. I also think there's the same chance that dozens of other colleges are doing the same thing right now. And I think many others still are avoiding that kind of player because they don't want this sort of thing cropping up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 And I think many others still are avoiding that kind of player because they don't want this sort of thing cropping up. So my statement from above is accurate then: Calipari (and plenty of other coaches, its not like the guys he's gotten have not been gone after hard by other schools) recruits kids with character and academic uncertainties which opens him to the possibility that something could go on behind his back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 People who live in glass houses.........gotta love the quote from Simon's father at the end of this piece. Arizona, bastion of Integrity Lute also had his 1999 tournament appearance vactated. By the standards everyone has held Calipari to in this thread, Lute Olsen is a cheater. There's no other possible conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 People who live in glass houses.........gotta love the quote from Simon's father at the end of this piece. Arizona, bastion of Integrity Lute also had his 1999 tournament appearance vactated. By the standards everyone has held Calipari to in this thread, Lute Olsen is a cheater. There's no other possible conclusion. Has Lute Olsen had two appearances to the Final 4 voided out? Has he had any wins taken off his official record? Then he has a ways to go to match Calipari's stature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 Has Lute Olsen had two appearances to the Final 4 voided out? Has he had any wins taken off his official record? Then he has a ways to go to match Calipari's stature. Did you read the Simon article? He's a cheater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 You're right, other teammates of Rose had suspect records... So, it appears Memphis was happy to take players that the bastion of higher education, Georgia, wouldn't touch. As I was saying, even by SEC standards, Memphis was shady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 Has Lute Olsen had two appearances to the Final 4 voided out? Has he had any wins taken off his official record? Then he has a ways to go to match Calipari's stature. Has Calipari had 2 Final Four appearances vacated? I think I must have missed something. And cheating is cheating. The fact that Cal made it farther in the tourney in 1996 than Lute did in 1999 is meaningless. And Det, I admitted earlier in the thread that Cal goes after guys that could lead to problems. I'm just pointing out the fact that Wildcats has been in here crowing and his own program engages in the same kind of questionable tactics - even to the point that their 1999 tournament appearance was vacated. If anything, this is just going to tighten up UK's stance on recruiting. Sandy Bell won't let anything like this slide. It may mean that Cal doesn't reel in the type of players he has in the past (though no Memphis team he ever coached even SNIFFED the level of talent that UK will have next year - assuming everyone qualifies.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 And cheating is cheating. So why do you have your face so far up Calipari's a$$ defending him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 So why do you have your face so far up Calipari's a$$ defending him? I haven't called him a cheater - I've admitted that he rercruits questionable guys. Everyone else in the thread has though. And so according to everyone else, that makes Lute Olsen a cheater too. And, I'm not saying Lute's a cheater. Jim Harrick, yes. Jimmy V, yes. Kelvin Sampson, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I haven't called him a cheater - I've admitted that he rercruits questionable guys. Everyone else in the thread has though. And so according to everyone else, that makes Lute Olsen a cheater too. And, I'm not saying Lute's a cheater. Jim Harrick, yes. Jimmy V, yes. Kelvin Sampson, yes. dood- I am not that naive - trust me THEY ALL cheat or have cheated in one form or another - that is just the way the game is played........ I saw it with my own eyes at UA, doods driving sick rides from dealers, and on and on - I mean coach K at Dook? he didn't elevate that program by playing by the rules.... that being said - there are different levels of cheating, and I for one thinks Cal will not be looking to good if he has 2 final fours vacated............. we shall see - and please stop with the UK chit - you guys haven't been relevant in ten years and until things turn around no one outside hillbillytucky gives a chit about UK, KU whatever......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 dood- I am not that naive - trust me THEY ALL cheat or have cheated in one form or another - that is just the way the game is played........ I saw it with my own eyes at UA, doods driving sick rides from dealers, and on and on - I mean coach K at Dook? he didn't elevate that program by playing by the rules.... that being said - there are different levels of cheating, and I for one thinks Cal will not be looking to good if he has 2 final fours vacated............. we shall see - and please stop with the UK chit - you guys haven't been relevant in ten years and until things turn around no one outside hillbillytucky gives a chit about UK, KU whatever......... In the last 10 years we've reached 3 Elite Eights, been the overall #1 seed in the NCAA Tourney twice, won 4 SEC Tournaments. That's hardly irrelevant. And again, the fact that a Cal coached team had a Final Four vacated doesn't make the level of cheating any worse than what happened to a Lute Olsen coached team in 1999. It just so happens that Cal's team made it farther. If UMass had lost in the 2nd round that year, the same thing would have happened (appearance vacated.) Would this make it any better? No way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 It hurts me bad to give a Dookie any credit, but Bilas gets it. Thanks for the sanity Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 It hurts me bad to give a Dookie any credit, but Bilas gets it. Thanks for the sanity Jay You need to sign up to read that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Excerpt below. Its a long article, I pulled out his take on what Calipari is getting hit with right now. John Calipari: So far, the biggest target in this saga has been Calipari. Because we have this ridiculous notion that the head coach is responsible for everything that goes on in his program, Calipari is taking the blame even though his name is not even mentioned in the Notice of Allegations. Remember, the Notice mentioned the name of a representative of Memphis' athletic interests over a single phone call. If the NCAA had anything on Calipari, it would have unloaded it in the Notice. It does not. And it has become acceptable now to blame Calipari for Marcus Camby's acceptance of money from two different agents in 1996, even though the coach was cleared of any wrongdoing in that case. The fact that Camby took money is being blamed on Calipari, and the situations at UMass and Memphis are being linked in an attempt to imply that Calipari is dirty in this matter as well. It is a cheap smear, and one without evidence to back it up. Call me old-fashioned, but I require established facts and evidence before I call someone a cheater. I am not naïve about the way things work in basketball, because I see it every day. But there is a difference between the problems with the culture in the game and making specific allegations of academic fraud against an individual. We all share the blame collectively for what is going on in the game, but we should require more evidence and hard facts before we indict any individual. Fair or not, Calipari still gets linked to Marcus Camby's involvement with agents while at UMass. So far, the only "evidence" against Calipari is that he was the head coach, and the head coach is responsible for everything that happens on his watch, that he was the head coach at UMass when Marcus Camby accepted money from an agent and the head coach is responsible for everything that happens on his watch, and he's at Memphis and he lets Worldwide Wes and the FedEx CEO hang around his program. I don't buy that the head coach is fully responsible for everything that happens on his watch. The head coach and the institution are responsible for what they know or reasonably should have known. The key word there is "reasonably." No head coach can or should be responsible for the actions of players well before they reach campus, and no coach can reasonably be expected to police the entire college basketball landscape for agents, runners and boosters. Tarring Calipari with Camby's acceptance of money from an agent 13 years ago is similarly unpersuasive to me. If we were in court, such "evidence" would not be admissible, because even though Calipari was cleared of any improper action, it would be considered a "prior bad act" that is more prejudicial than probative. The fact that Camby took money from agents in 1996 proves nothing about Rose and his academic issues. And to continue to discredit Calipari with references to wrongdoing he played no part in is simply wrong. If there is evidence that Calipari knew about or participated in the alleged academic fraud, then bring it forward. Just mentioning Camby and a vacated Final Four appearance does not tell us anything about the current situation. Maybe Calipari and Memphis had a part in this alleged wrongdoing. But maybe, just maybe, they did not. As reasonable people, we should establish the facts first. Just because the NCAA alleges something doesn't make it true. We can always hang the head coach and take down the banners later, after we have proved the matters that are alleged. Until then, a deep breath and some perspective wouldn't hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 We can always hang the head coach and take down the banners later, after we have proved the matters that are alleged. Until then, a deep breath and some perspective wouldn't hurt. Here's the thing though, the head coach always skates, it's the school that takes the hit. So the real options are, give the guy the benefit of the doubt up until there's truly damning evidence at which point you slap the guy on the wrist, allow him to move on to another program and leave the last one in ruins. Now, before you go freaking out, Cyclones, I'm not saying that Calipari is doing this right now. Maybe someone, not me, mentioned that Calipari should or will be be punished for what happened at Memphis, but I don't think so. All that is really being alleged is that he seems to push the envelope further than most when it comes to the types of players he takes. You've said as much yourself. I get it, dude just wants to coach ball. Honestly, I think the real farce is that these kids, most of whom have no interest in being in school, have to pretend for either a year or two that they're students. It's a total sham. None the less, if all he's guilty of is taking players with questionable records (pretty much your words), isn't that enough? Kind of brings up the old adage about playing with fire. You keep recruiting a certain type of player, eventually you're going to get in trouble. See Tark. The thing is, other coaches seem to be doing a better job of avoiding the mess (and before you bring up the twice in 20 years point again, remember that 5 of those years were in the pros and 8 of those years were before his first violation, so it's really twice in about 10 years.). That could mean one of a number of things. 1) They avoid players rumored to have cheated on tests. The rumor starts. One (or most guys) will say, "Where there's smoke there's fire" and recruit someone else. Maybe Cal says, "Hell, maybe this kid who hasn't lifted a book in 4 years studied his ass off and that's why his SAT is 500 pts higher the second time he took it." 2) They actually don't employ a don't ask don't tell approach with their staff. When the guy hired to look into these things starts walking down the hall, they don't cover their ears and run. 3) Maybe Cal is just a d!ck and nobody likes him, which means he's going to catch more scrutiny than others. I mean, this isn't detlef, wildcat, and gottom v Cal. This is pretty much everyone outside of Lexington v Cal. When he was being discussed regarding the NC State position, there wasn't much nice being said about him on the local radio. The only people who seemed to think he'd gotten a bum rap were NC State fans. Well, right up until he said no. Regardless, it's not like he's the only coach who wins, so it can't be jealousy. But, for whatever reason, his name was just magically picked out of a hat to be the poster boy for sleaze in college hoops. Why is that? Hell, I'm a UNC fan, why the hell would my motivation to dog any coach at all be jealousy? Who should I be jealous of? We just won 2 championships in 5 years and are completely re-loaded after losing 4 starters to the draft. I hate Duke and think K looks like a rat and has fallen behind the times. However, I don't think he's a snake. I don't even hate Cal or UK or even Memphis for that matter. It's just that, because it is not my job to officially rule on NCAA misconduct, I'm afforded the luxury of employing the "quacks like a duck" argument. And I think dude quacks. That's really it. So, the question remains, is Cal a better coach than most or just less concerned with non-basketball issues than most? In the pros, he didn't fare so well, maybe because nobody has to worry about grades and compliance there, so simply ignoring non-basketball issues wasn't an advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 All great points Det. I think that I would have my head buried in the sand if I couldnt see that Cal pushes the envelope as far as it will go and has been willing to take shots with kids that other schools wouldn't sniff (although I think, like Bilas says, the Camby incident was totally out of his control.) It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear that alot of other kids are taking money or benefits from agents before they leave school and are getting away with it either. Like wildcat said in an earlier post, most star player are driving Hummers, Lexuses, and Escalades around while making $6.25 an hour at the local Taco Bell. That doesn't add up. If anything, this whole story will only force UK to really tighten the reigns on the recruiting and double and triple check anyone before they set foot on the court. I'm not the least bit worried that anything bad will happen and I scoff at those who say its only a matter of time before UK will be on probation or taking down a banner. I just seriously doubt the administration will let it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billay Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 The thing with Cal tough, has been that he could always move on to greener pastures. Situation going sour at UMass? No problem, try out Memphis. What's that? Memphis up for possible sanctions? Hellooo Kentucky! But there's nowhere to go but down from Kentucky. There are no greener pastures, nowhere where the money will be better, or better facilities, or bigger athletic endowment. It's a might long way to fall. Look what happened to Harrick after he left UCLA. I mean, the Rhode Islands and UGA's of the world just ain't the same once you've been coaching at one of the big boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 On Kansas radio today Xavier Henry's dad said that X wanted to follow Cal to UK all along but his mom wasn't down with. Said her protests have eased off and now X could decommit from Kansas and end up at UK. They are talking about it tonight as a family. If UK added Henry to their current class, it would leave the Fab Five class a ways back in the rear view mirror. Would be Five 5 star guys, one 4 star, and a 4 star JUCO transfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Dick Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 UK can have 'em. That family is nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 UK can have 'em. That family is nuts. Looks like they're staying at KU. Should be great for team chemistry, a kid who doesn't want to be there with two whacko parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billay Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 On Kansas radio today Xavier Henry's dad said that X wanted to follow Cal to UK all along but his mom wasn't down with. Said her protests have eased off and now X could decommit from Kansas and end up at UK. They are talking about it tonight as a family. If UK added Henry to their current class, it would leave the Fab Five class a ways back in the rear view mirror. Would be Five 5 star guys, one 4 star, and a 4 star JUCO transfer. Funny that much of this thread has been about violations and sanctions and then you go and bring up the Fab Five. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 Funny that much of this thread has been about violations and sanctions and then you go and bring up the Fab Five. Indeed! I didn't appreciate the irony in it until you brought it up. I hope you're looking forward to an ass kicking in Rupp this year billay. It's coming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Indeed! I didn't appreciate the irony in it until you brought it up. I hope you're looking forward to an ass kicking in Rupp this year billay. It's coming I think UNC is going to waayyyy better than most think. They're in better shape this year than they were the year after they lost all those guys from the '05 Natl Champ and that '06 team didn't end up so shabby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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