Swiss Cheezhead Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Ursa Majoris: Refs unwillingness to call Shaq exacerbates this weakness. I think my biggest problem with how the refs deal with Shaq is when they allow him to finish shots after being fouled with both feet on the ground. It happens at least a couple of times a game. He'll catch the ball with his back to the basket, get fouled on his first move, the whistle will blow, then Shaq will turn and dunk -- and they'll count it. Ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down Goes Frazia Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Swiss Cheezhead: Ursa Majoris: Refs unwillingness to call Shaq exacerbates this weakness. I think my biggest problem with how the refs deal with Shaq is when they allow him to finish shots after being fouled with both feet on the ground. It happens at least a couple of times a game. He'll catch the ball with his back to the basket, get fouled on his first move, the whistle will blow, then Shaq will turn and dunk -- and they'll count it. Ridiculous. bawling bawling ...... you're sapp'in my strength just listen'in to you ladies whine. It'll all be over soon enough whether it be today or Monday.... & these silly "T-wolves are better than the Laker's when Cassell is healthy" threads can slide down the board never to be heard from again. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Ursa Majoris: I guess in all round basketball sense, including every aspect of the game, you have a point. well, as long as you're conceding that the lakers are better "in an all around basketball sense, including every aspect of the game", then we're in agreement. shrug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Down Goes Frazia: Swiss Cheezhead: Ursa Majoris: Refs unwillingness to call Shaq exacerbates this weakness. I think my biggest problem with how the refs deal with Shaq is when they allow him to finish shots after being fouled with both feet on the ground. It happens at least a couple of times a game. He'll catch the ball with his back to the basket, get fouled on his first move, the whistle will blow, then Shaq will turn and dunk -- and they'll count it. Ridiculous. bawling bawling ...... you're sapp'in my strength just listen'in to you ladies whine. It'll all be over soon enough whether it be today or Monday.... & these silly "T-wolves are better than the Laker's when Cassell is healthy" threads can slide down the board never to be heard from again. lol The post you quoted had little to do with the T-Wolves. I've seen Shaq given that play by various refs against various teams. The fact is, it makes any given game that much harder to watch. Watching Shaq dominate most defenders with his sheer size is boring in the first place. When officials start giving him additional advantages, it's even worse. I don't know if you're missing my point, in denial, or just argumentative, but how refs treat Shaq is hardly up for dispute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down Goes Frazia Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Swiss Cheezhead:The post you quoted had little to do with the T-Wolves. I've seen Shaq given that play by various refs against various teams. The fact is, it makes any given game that much harder to watch. Watching Shaq dominate most defenders with his sheer size is boring in the first place. When officials start giving him additional advantages, it's even worse. I don't know if you're missing my point, in denial, or just argumentative, but how refs treat Shaq is hardly up for dispute. Look swiss..... I'm just sick & tired of the whole argument. First it's the cassell factor & how much of a difference he'd make if he was healthy ..... and now the shaq deal. The fact is he gets fouled himself as much or more than any other player in the league when he's got the ball in the post..... because noone can stop him..... noone. For Chr*st's sake.... madsen was hang'in all over him the other night & they did NOT make the call.... he looked like a little kids hang'in from the bars on a jungle gym. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Down Goes Frazia: madsen was hang'in all over him the other night & they did NOT make the call.... he looked like a little kids hang'in from the bars on a jungle gym. lol THAT'S your evidence against my argument that the officiating is bad? You're kidding, right? And I don't understand why all the points I've been making are being characterized as "whining" and "excuses". I'm not some homer who's myopically ignoring his team's flaws. I'm simply analyzing basketball and offering REASONS why Minnesota is getting beaten. Call it what you want, but my opinion is unbiased -- and shared by quite a few people who pay more attention to the NBA than you or I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted May 30, 2004 Share Posted May 30, 2004 thumbs_u Whew....miracles can happen. Only 7 teams have come back being down 3-1 in a 7 games series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted May 30, 2004 Author Share Posted May 30, 2004 Just got back. The MVP got 30 points, 19 rebounds and 4 assists and was friggin' unbelievable, aided by Sprewell and Hoiberg. Not only that, but KG played most of the game at point guard. big_shoc At one stage he was knocked on his ass, got no call, and still managed to get down the other end to collect the rebound from the Laker shot. This man is the best basketball player on the planet. Even if we lose this series, we'll be going down fighting and that's all you can ask. IMO, Swiss is right - Shaq gets calls he shouldn't get. Not only that, he's a one trick pony. When they widen the lane, which will be soon, even that trick won't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted May 30, 2004 Share Posted May 30, 2004 Swiss Cheezhead: If I were Flip Saunders, I'd try to rest Cassell for Game 5 as well, unless he's needed badly in the 2nd half. Their only chance to win Game 6 in L.A. is with Cassell. Of course, no one in Minnesota is saying how bad Cassell's back/hip/whatever injury is, but I have to believe he sat out tonight because the rest will actually allow him to play in Game 6. I thought it was a good coaching move to have him in street clothes, too -- it must have added a little more focus to the players who had to pick up the slack. Once again, with me playing Coach Saunders, I'd start Cassell in Game 6 and take him out after 10 minutes or so -- basically just use him enough in the first 3 quarters to keep him warmed up. But he HAS to be there in the 4th, and he needs to be as strong and healthy as possible. If that happens, even you Lakers-supporters have to agree that the Wolves have a decent chance at a Game 7 back in the Cities. I'm looking forward to a good basketball game on Monday. thumbs_u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Just heard on SportsCenter that Cassell is out again for Game 6. I also just heard the sound of a 20-dollar bill trying to escape from my wallet... Since it's almost guaranteed that the Lakers will have a lead in the 4th quarter, someone else is going to have to step up and hit shots when L.A. goes cold. I think that player needs to be Wally Szczerbiak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 the shaq whining (and it IS whining, guys) is somewhat accurate. but in fairness to the officials, he might be the hardest player to officiate in the history of the league. i mean, basketball isn't SUPPOSED to be a contact sport. when you bump into someone and knock them back 3 feet, that's supposed to be an offensive foul, at least in a purist, literal interpretation of the rules. that's why i have a problem with shaq being considered one of the all-time great players...because everything that separates him from other players isn't supposed to be part of the game. he'd be average if he wasn't so f'n huge. but low post contact IS part of the game, and it was before shaq ever came on the scene. he just takes advantage of it better than any other player ever. the officials have to either call every low post bump, or they have to let shaq play his game. but it's been that way since he's been in the league. it's nothing new, nothing unexpected. but i don't know where this whining about the refs giving him more continuation than other people comes from. man, did you see a couple of the ones they gave KG in the last game?? the refs don't "treat him differently" than any other star, they just allow him to play his physically dominating game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Azazello1313: the shaq whining (and it IS whining, guys) is somewhat accurate. but in fairness to the officials, he might be the hardest player to officiate in the history of the league. i mean, basketball isn't SUPPOSED to be a contact sport. when you bump into someone and knock them back 3 feet, that's supposed to be an offensive foul, at least in a purist, literal interpretation of the rules. that's why i have a problem with shaq being considered one of the all-time great players...because everything that separates him from other players isn't supposed to be part of the game. he'd be average if he wasn't so f'n huge. but low post contact IS part of the game, and it was before shaq ever came on the scene. he just takes advantage of it better than any other player ever. the officials have to either call every low post bump, or they have to let shaq play his game. but it's been that way since he's been in the league. it's nothing new, nothing unexpected. I pretty much agree with all of the above. He IS difficult to officiate because of his size and strength (and he's NOT one of the greatest of all time). I'm no longer "surprised" by how the refs treat Shaq -- I just shake my head every time I see it. That being said, I haven't ever made that SPECIFIC issue a point of contention. Other than the minor annoyance of the extra continuation (which I'll address below), the way the refs treat Shaq with the ball is to be expected. It's not RIGHT, but everyone has gotten used to it. My "whining" was borne of the inconsistency in officiating, specifically at the Staples Center. Watching Game 4 specifically was frustrating because of all the calls I thought KG deserved. I'll certainly be paying attention on Monday, but up to this point, I'll maintain that while Shaq has gotten the usual "special treatment" in L.A., there hasn't been much respect shown to the MVP, nor has there been officiating consistency quarter-to-quarter. Azazello1313: but i don't know where this whining about the refs giving him more continuation than other people comes from. man, did you see a couple of the ones they gave KG in the last game?? the refs don't "treat him differently" than any other star, they just allow him to play his physically dominating game. I'm sure you'll say I'm splitting hairs again, but I can only speak to what I've observed -- Shaq certainly gets MORE continuation than any player in the league. You could argue that he deserves it more, but I don't think you can deny it's true. I do remember one play specifically in Game 5 that was blatantly in favor of KG and I shook my head at that, too. I can't say I enjoy ANY instance of obvious favortism or just plain bad officiating, but in that regard, it's gone much more in the Lakers' favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted May 31, 2004 Author Share Posted May 31, 2004 FWIW, I think we need to appreciate how hard it is to actually referee basketball. Shooting fouls are incredibly hard to judge - did the fingertip make contact or not? Sometimes it's hard to see whether it's an offensive or defensive foul - were the feet set? Was a heel on the arc? All that said, and leaving the T-Wolves and Shaq out of it, I can't help but be irritated with the NBA "star system". The refs seem to actively avoid giving fouls against the stars, in case they foul out. Occasionally you'll see a role player taking a foul that he had nothing to do with, but he gets it instead of it being the fourth or fifth on one of the main guys. If it's going to be a sport, the rules have to apply to everyone equally, which seems obvious, but in the NBA it's not the case. Oh yeah, one other beef - either call the 3 second violation consistently or don't call it at all. The Wolves benefitted from the call near the end of game 5 and Shaq was somewhat miffed about it. I can sympathize with that because of the lack of consistency. Do an exercise for game 6 - pick a defender and count the three seconds. You'll find it's called about 5% of the times it should be. Whatever, Saturday night was a blast, I just hope we can do it all again at TC Wednesday. It won't be for lack of effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted May 31, 2004 Author Share Posted May 31, 2004 Swiss Cheezhead: Just heard on SportsCenter that Cassell is out again for Game 6. I also just heard the sound of a 20-dollar bill trying to escape from my wallet... Since it's almost guaranteed that the Lakers will have a lead in the 4th quarter, someone else is going to have to step up and hit shots when L.A. goes cold. I think that player needs to be Wally Szczerbiak. The Wolves are better off being sure that Sam is sitting, it lets them focus properly. KG and Fred Hoiberg will share a lot of the point duties. As for Wally, he's due a huge one. Let it be Monday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Swiss Cheezhead: I thought it was a good coaching move to have him in street clothes, too -- it must have added a little more focus to the players who had to pick up the slack. Ursa Majoris: The Wolves are better off being sure that Sam is sitting, it lets them focus properly. thumbs_u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted June 1, 2004 Author Share Posted June 1, 2004 $hit. frown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down Goes Frazia Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 well boyz........ I ain't gonna go off on a rant here..... 'cause the t-wolves played admirably..... gutsy performance. thumbs_u But the Lakers getting 31 points off 18 turnovers was the difference IMO. smash Minnesota could not take care of the ball all game long. Prior to tonight..... the Wolves won both games that Cassell did not play in ....... tonight his presense on the floor was definitely missed. Kareem Rush pour'in in 6 three's didn't help either. eek! And finally, I gotta give Malone some props....... that old geriatric played his ass off all series against KG. I think he wanted it more than anyone on the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted June 1, 2004 Author Share Posted June 1, 2004 Down Goes Frazia: well boyz........ I ain't gonna go off on a rant here..... 'cause the t-wolves played admirably..... gutsy performance. thumbs_u But the Lakers getting 31 points off 18 turnovers was the difference IMO. smash Minnesota could not take care of the ball all game long. Prior to tonight..... the Wolves won both games that Cassell did not play in ....... tonight his presense on the floor was definitely missed. Kareem Rush pour'in in 6 three's didn't help either. eek! And finally, I gotta give Malone some props....... that old geriatric played his ass off all series against KG. I think he wanted it more than anyone on the floor. You are an astute observer, my friend. Here's a self-quote from a post earlier in this thread: The Wolves have several weaknesses that surface from time to time. Amongst these are turnovers and offensive rebounds allowed, but the most glaring is their inability to get to the line. They rank about 25th in the league - yet they win far more than they lose because they are able to overcome it most times with shooting. Tonight it was the turnovers that did them in (plus quite a number of offensive rebounds), but they looked very tired to me, hardly surprising, and they started heaving bricks in the fourth. I still take my hat off to them for their effort and will, but in the end the Lakers had too many weapons. Malone desperately wants that ring, and I think he'll get it. Finally, props to the refs, who did an awesome job. Not easy to do what they did on the Lakers home floor, so a big thumbs_u to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Well, the Wolves were close, but they lost fair and square. The two most major reasons they lost: One, Michael Jordan...er, Kareem Rush hitting 6 three-pointers, and two, they did their share of choking like a true Minnesota pro sports team (sorry Ursa, I couldn't resist). Like I said before, NO ONE could hit big shots in the 4th quarter. Az -- PM or e-mail me with your address and I'll send you your &*$@*# twenty bucks. angry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 swiss...as you probably know, it just so happens that i owed you 20 in winnings for huddlers' refuge. we were going to just put that toward next year's dues, but instead you can just pay like everyone else once dues time comes around. sound like a plan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Azazello1313: swiss...as you probably know, it just so happens that i owed you 20 in winnings for huddlers' refuge. we were going to just put that toward next year's dues, but instead you can just pay like everyone else once dues time comes around. sound like a plan? Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking...but I'll still need your address eventually. Just let me know when. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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