Bronco Billy Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I don't think that I missing anything. As I read the original post, there is no rule about keeping a player selected off of the ww, and one of the owners is arguing that the price for keeping a drafted player obtained off of the ww should a 14th round pick. This issue as framed by the OP is should a drafted player be treated as an undrafted player for purposes of a keeper because he was later obtained off of the ww. If that is the case, there is no conflict or ambiguity. Okay, since you are interpretting so strictly, what is the ruling for a player who wasn't drafted and then picked up on the WW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuffBuff Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I don't think that I missing anything. As I read the original post, there is no rule about keeping a player selected off of the ww, and one of the owners is arguing that the price for keeping a drafted player obtained off of the ww should a 14th round pick. This issue as framed by the OP is should a drafted player be treated as an undrafted player for purposes of a keeper because he was later obtained off of the ww. If that is the case, there is no conflict or ambiguity. If WW players can't be kept. Then this is open and shut case. However that is not likely. Chehalas may want to chime in with what the league rule is for keeping WW players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 And while we are at it, what is the ruling on Palmer and the owner's original 8th rounder? Keeping both would require that the owner surrender his 7th round pick, but the rule clearly states you can keep as many as you want, except for 1st and 2nd rounders. So he gets 2 players for surrendering 1 draft pick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 While you're at it, you better add rules for traded players! That's what I was thinking when I was looking over the responses. Do you have 15 rounds in the draft? I didn't see that anywhere but i assumed that's the case. I agree that after a player is cut his draft status should reset. No difference in getting him in FA or any other player. They shouldn't have cut him if they wanted to keep his status intact for this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Okay, since you are interpretting so strictly, what is the ruling for a player who wasn't drafted and then picked up on the WW? Well, that's a good question. I suppose that you could handle it one of two ways: a) you can't keep a player that wasn't drafted; or 2) you can keep one player that you obtained off of the ww that wasn't drafted, and it will cost you you final pick of the draft. the latter makes more sense to me. The thing is, there is no rule, let alone a rule to interpret, in that situation, so you have to make something up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Well, that's a good question. I suppose that you could handle it one of two ways: a) you can't keep a player that wasn't drafted; or 2) you can keep one player that you obtained off of the ww that wasn't drafted, and it will cost you you final pick of the draft. the latter makes more sense to me. The thing is, there is no rule, let alone a rule to interpret, in that situation, so you have to make something up. It seems to me that the rule says you can keep as many non-1st/2nd round rostered players as you would like. That means if a WW pick is on his roster, he can keep the player. But the WW player has a null pick. That means you can't subtract 1 from it, so he gets to keep the WW for nothing, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcmast Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 (edited) My primary league moved to a being a keeper league. We did this at last year's draft so we are entering the first year where it will come into play. Unfortunately, we didn't articulate the rules very well so now there is a disagreement on interpretation--no big surprise! Our rules were basically stated as follows: • you can keep as many as you want • you can't keep 1st or 2nd round picks • if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd) That was about it. The question that now exists is, what happens if you pick up a player off of waivers? If was drafted by another player, does that draft position stay with the player or does he essentially revert to an undrafted free agent, thus representing the last pick in the draft? For example, Carson Palmer was a 8th round pick and he was dropped. A guy picked him up and carried him all year. Now, he is suggesting that Palmer is this years 14th round pick, not the 7th round pick. He maintains that Palmer was picked up off of the waiver wire so he is essentially an undrafted free agent. Two questions—how do most established keeper leagues work? Based on the situation as outlined above, what do you feel is the right thing to do? Thanks for taking the time to chime in! The rule says "one draft pick higher than he was drafted." It does not say "one draft pick higher than he was drafted by you." So my vote is for giving up a 7th rounder. My league runs with pretty much the same rules except we have the statement that if the player was drafted, his keeper penalty is based on the original draft round, not the FA penalty (listed as 11th round in our rules). Edited August 12, 2009 by kcmast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 The thing is, there is no rule, let alone a rule to interpret, in that situation, so you have to make something up. I agreed with your first post, Furd, but not the above. The OPs rules are as follows: Our rules were basically stated as follows: • you can keep as many as you want • you can't keep 1st or 2nd round picks • if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd) As in any game/contest, all rules must satisfy the boundaries of the other rules in order to stand. Thus, while you can keep "as many as you want", it is noted in a follow-up rule that a player that is kept "costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted". I don't know how you can read that last caveat any other way that to say a player had to be drafted in order to be kept. Waiver pick-ups are not addressed anywhere, so to create a rule saying they cost you a 14th round pick is ambiguous. Why not a 5th round pick? Why not an 8th? To decide now, when someone has a definitive stake in the equation, tilts the scales of balance. I agree with many of the ideas BB, BC and other posters have posted here about how to change the rules for the future. I just think its outrageus to change them for this coming season, when an owner gets rewarded immediately. I still beleive you should interpret the rule to a "T" as it is written, but modify them immediately for next year's draft (and so people that are dropping guys this season know the ramifications of what someone else picking them up might be). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcmast Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 You're missing where the ambiguity is in this situation. They have two rules that conflict themselves They have a rule that allows an owner to keep a player from the Waiver Wire costing them a 14th pick. They also have a rule that states that a player kept costs the round drafted plus one. Carson Palmer was drafted and he was picked up from the Waiver Wire. You can't choose to enforce one rule arbitrarily over another rule. The owners in this league need to make a decision. This is a situation that their rules do not cover. Their rules do not cover when a player is drafted and picked up from a Waiver Wire in the same season. Actually there is no rule stated that says you can keep a WW for a 14th. At least not that I saw in the original post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuffBuff Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 (edited) I don't know how you can read that last caveat any other way that to say a player had to be drafted in order to be kept. These guys are noobies to keeperville. These rules clearly weren't written with all possible situations in mind. Not keeping WW players is an option but that fact that this post exists means that the league did not consider this situation as a possibility when writing the rules. They are in uncharted territory and need help making a chart. Edited August 12, 2009 by RuffBuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 (edited) This is a classic case of not thinking through the worst case consequences to a league when making a rule (or not making a rule, as it were). We're going through the same thing right now in the Huddle Ladder All Pro league - we have a situation where there could be a bad consequence to the league as a whole (but could significantly benefit one owner) when you consider the worst case scenario. It looks like we'll fly by the seat of our pants and hope for the best, but there will almost surely be some complaining IF one of the owners were to fall into the beneficial situation (and as a consequence one other owner would be placed at a significant disadvantage). It's the same way here - some one is going to feel screwed in the whole deal. There is absolutely gray area and conflicting scenarios in interpretting the rules exactly as provided. The only thing you can do is have the league vote on it, and then with a precedence set make sure they all understand that there is no fall back position if someone gets royally hosed. Edited August 12, 2009 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 They are in uncharted territory and need help making a chart. Pie chart or bar chart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuffBuff Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Pie chart or bar chart? http://www.labnol.org/software/find-right-...your-data/6523/ I'm thinking a Stacked Area chart especially if that area happens to be around Jessica Biel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilthorp Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Well, if your rule is: • if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd) and Palmer was drafted in the 8th round, whoever keeps him loses a 7th round pick. There's not much ambiguity in the rule. Yup. If written that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 You're missing a rule • A player picked up from the WW will cost a 14th round pick. Where did you see that rule? It was not in the original post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Well, if your rule is: • if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd) and Palmer was drafted in the 8th round, whoever keeps him loses a 7th round pick. There's not much ambiguity in the rule. But the problem is what if he took Lendale White in last year's 8th round and only has 1 7th rounder to give up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 But the problem is what if he took Lendale White in last year's 8th round and only has 1 7th rounder to give up? No tickee, no shirtee. If you can't pay the price for a keeper, no keeper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosGatosEnFuegos Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm going to go ahead and not weigh in on this. Rather, I am going to give you two additional things that you need to consider. First, if Schaub is drafted in the 8th round in 2007, then kept in 2008 for a 7th round pick, what does he cost in 2009? The reason this is a problem, is that if he costs a 7th rounder in 2008, the team still has an 8th rounder to use in 2008. So you NEED to increase the cost of Schaub AGAIN in 2009 or you will run into conflicts. Thus, in 2009, Schaub must cost a 6th rounder because he was essentially drafted in the 7th round in 2008. Make sense? Good. Secondly (actually this kind of is weighing in on the issue), you cannot have a WW pickup cost a 14th rounder, because if I pickup Palmer and Benson in 2008, I can't give up two 14th rounders in 2009. I actually would make this rule become that I give up a 14th and 13th, having each additional WW acquisition cost my last available pick. But that's to be implemented next year. Additionally, if I draft Palmer in the 8th, then drop him, then pick him up 5 weeks later, why does he cost me a 7th rounder when he would cost everyone else a 14th rounder? If WW pickups do in fact cost a 14th rounder, you must make stipulations regarding the person who drafted the player vs. other players in the event that that player is dropped. I would say it should be that if the player sits on waivers through one week, they become equal for all players. At the end of the day, I think the rule should be that whether you draft a player or not, they still carry the same cost. However, if you already are using a 7th rounder, they cost the NEXT ROUND UP. So in this case, if Palmer conflicts with the 7th rounder, then he now costs a 6th rounder. If you're using your 6th and 7th rounders for keepers, then he now costs a 5th. In this way, it's possible that he is pushed all the way up to costing a 1st round pick. So be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
housecall Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I would say the rule is clear and the player, no matter if he was dropped or traded, will cost the team a draft pick. I agree with an earlier post in that Palmer may have been passed over by other teams because someone wouldn't want to lose a draft pick for him. I'm in a keeper league, and when an issue like this comes up, we interpret the rule "literally." In your league, that would mean that Palmer would cost the team a 7th round pick. One way to resolve it, is to give the team the option to drop paler without penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) Here were your rules: • you can keep as many as you want • you can't keep 1st or 2nd round picks • if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd) You've acknowledged that your league did not plan for other possibilities (waivers, trades, etc). My advice: enforce only those three rules you do have. If something was not covered, it cannot happen. Enforce them literally. So...a player acquired thru waivers cannot be kept. Period. It sucks, but your rules do not state that a player acquired thru waivers can be kept. You cannot make up the rules as you go and apply them to an event in the past...you do so only for events moving forward. In your scenario, because the waiver aspect of the transaction was not covered, give the new Palmer owner a choice: pay a 7th for him (he was taken last year in the 8th, right?) if he wants to keep him, or cut him loose. Be firm and be clear: these are his ONLY two options as the league never got specific enough last year when making the new rules. Then, before you even hold a draft this year, make sure you iron out every other scenario that you can think of. Get your rules down on paper, make them CLEAR, and move forward. Edited August 13, 2009 by The Wolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunysteelfly76 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 It seems to me that the rule says you can keep as many non-1st/2nd round rostered players as you would like. That means if a WW pick is on his roster, he can keep the player. But the WW player has a null pick. That means you can't subtract 1 from it, so he gets to keep the WW for nothing, right? This is what I was thinking should happen as I was reading through this thread. Someone may get a steal this year, but don't penalize the individual owner for an issue with the rules (especially if the owners helped create the rules). I would say the same thing should apply for traded players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chester Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 The only thing you can do is have the league vote on it, and then with a precedence set make sure they all understand that there is no fall back position if someone gets royally hosed. ditto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Observation: We do not know what the rules ACTUALLY say, as the OP said "the rules basically say _____". Therefore, please post the actual rules as written. *************************** As an aside, a very long-time keeper-ish league had a 16 round draft. Because WW stars can come out of nowhere to dominate, we set all WW pickups as costing a 10th round pick the next year. Also, this league said keeper costs accelerate 3 rounds from year to year (so all players taken in the first three rounds go back in the hopper the next year). Finally, in the event of having more than one player cost the same round, then the owner gets to pick which player would get moved up a round in expense (so, if Player A and Player B were each due to cost an 8th round pick, the owner would get to decide which one would most permanently up to costing a 7th round pick (and therefore a 4th round pick the year after the coming year) and which one would remain an 8th round pick) --- alternatively, we did offer the ability for one team to trade picks thereby allowing this owner to (say) trade a 7th and a 11th to someone else in exchange for an 8th and a 9th round picks, thereby giving them two 8th round picks (one for each keeper). These sets of rules worked out very well for us for a very long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 If anybody was smart, they could easily turn the #1 waiver wire spot into a championship the next season. That doesn't seem like the most fun or truest way to build a championship team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Muto Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 So if Brady was drafted last year in round 2 and then cut because he was hurt would he be a 14th rounder ? That would make no sense since the guy who drafted him would never keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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