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Paranoia wins


CaP'N GRuNGe
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I don't get it. What's wrong with end of life CONSULTATIONS. Should we pretend like people are never going to die? Shouldn't we encourage people to think about and confront this issue so, while they are lucid, they can make informed decisions about what they actually want to do for themselves when the time comes?

 

Az, why do you opposing people being able to make informed choices about their own health care?

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is there a bill proposing that insurance companies send out "end of life counselors" to help persuade dying people to save them money? because I don't think that would be real well received, either.

Are you saying you believe in these government "death panels"? :wacko:

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Oregon has a right to die law-thank goodness. You do have to have a written statement from your doc that says you have less than 6 months to live, and a note from to psychiatrists stating you are of sound mind. Since 1998, less than 500 people have actually taken advantage of this.

 

As I recall the federal gov't under the Bush adminisration threatened to prosecute doctors who adminstered the lethal drug and it went to the Supreme Court where the Oregon state law was upheld.

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I agree with all you say but the euthanasia problem is not just religious, it is also because of conniving relatives. This is why living wills should be mandatory.

 

It is past time for TimC to come back on this thread, put this in perspective, and tell us about how this bill would be very convenient for one of his family members or relatives. :wacko:

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Az, why do you opposing people being able to make informed choices about their own health care?
Nothing, it's a good idea that would save a crap ton of money. So, it won't be included in the bill. :wacko:
Are you saying you believe in these government "death panels"? :D

 

I don't "oppose people making informed choices about their own health care", I very much support that. but if the "information" is coming from a counselor whose whole point in being there is to save the government a "crap ton of money" by convincing you to refuse further treatment, I'm sorry but I do find that a little creepy. they were probably wise to drop it. "death panel" sounds like some board of officials making final decisions -- I haven't seen anything in any of these bills that goes that far. but, I mean, you guys can't have it both ways....how is this great idea supposed to save such a crap ton of money if not by convincing people to refuse treatment and die sooner?

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found an op-ed that captures my thoughts on this pretty well...

 

About a third of Americans have living wills or advance-care directives expressing their wishes for end-of-life treatment. When seniors who don't have them arrive in a hospital terminally ill and incapacitated, families and medical workers wrestle with uncertainty -- while life-prolonging machinery runs, often at Medicare's expense. This has consequences for families and for the federal budget.

 

Enter Section 1233 of the health-care bill drafted in the Democratic-led House, which would pay doctors to give Medicare patients end-of-life counseling every five years -- or sooner if the patient gets a terminal diagnosis.

 

On the far right, this is being portrayed as a plan to force everyone over 65 to sign his or her own death warrant. That's rubbish. Federal law already bars Medicare from paying for services "the purpose of which is to cause, or assist in causing," suicide, euthanasia or mercy killing. Nothing in Section 1233 would change that.

 

Still, I was not reassured to read in an Aug. 1 Post article that "Democratic strategists" are "hesitant to give extra attention to the issue by refuting the inaccuracies, but they worry that it will further agitate already-skeptical seniors."

 

If Section 1233 is innocuous, why would "strategists" want to tip-toe around the subject?

 

Perhaps because, at least as I read it, Section 1233 is not totally innocuous.

 

Until now, federal law has encouraged end-of-life planning -- gently. In 1990, Congress required health-care institutions (not individual doctors) to give new patients written notice of their rights to make living wills, advance directives and the like -- but also required them to treat patients regardless of whether they have such documents.

 

The 1997 ban on assisted-suicide support specifically allowed doctors to honor advance directives. And last year, Congress told doctors to offer a brief chat on end-of-life documents to consenting patients during their initial "Welcome to Medicare" physical exam. That mandate took effect this year.

 

Section 1233, however, addresses compassionate goals in disconcerting proximity to fiscal ones. Supporters protest that they're just trying to facilitate choice -- even if patients opt for expensive life-prolonging care. I think they protest too much: If it's all about obviating suffering, emotional or physical, what's it doing in a measure to "bend the curve" on health-care costs?

 

Though not mandatory, as some on the right have claimed, the consultations envisioned in Section 1233 aren't quite "purely voluntary," as Rep. Sander M. Levin (D-Mich.) asserts. To me, "purely voluntary" means "not unless the patient requests one." Section 1233, however, lets doctors initiate the chat and gives them an incentive -- money -- to do so. Indeed, that's an incentive to insist.

 

Patients may refuse without penalty, but many will bow to white-coated authority. Once they're in the meeting, the bill does permit "formulation" of a plug-pulling order right then and there. So when Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.) denies that Section 1233 would "place senior citizens in situations where they feel pressured to sign end-of-life directives that they would not otherwise sign," I don't think he's being realistic.

 

What's more, Section 1233 dictates, at some length, the content of the consultation. The doctor "shall" discuss "advanced care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to"; "an explanation of . . . living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses" (even though these are legal, not medical, instruments); and "a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families." The doctor "shall" explain that Medicare pays for hospice care (hint, hint).

 

Admittedly, this script is vague and possibly unenforceable. What are "key questions"? Who belongs on "a list" of helpful "resources"? The Roman Catholic Church? Jack Kevorkian?

 

Ideally, the delicate decisions about how to manage life's end would be made in a setting that is neutral in both appearance and fact. Yes, it's good to have a doctor's perspective. But Section 1233 goes beyond facilitating doctor input to preferring it. Indeed, the measure would have an interested party -- the government -- recruit doctors to sell the elderly on living wills, hospice care and their associated providers, professions and organizations. You don't have to be a right-wing wacko to question that approach.

 

As it happens, I have a living will and a durable power of attorney for health care. I'm glad I do. I drew them up based on publicly available medical information, in consultation with my family and a lawyer. No authority figure got paid by federal bean-counters to influence me. I have a hunch I'm not the only one who would rather do it that way

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When John Boehner talked about "government forced euthenasia" I laughed out loud and thought how pathetic the Republicans have become. Who really believes this crap? Well, sadly, now I see that enough people do. I sincerely hope that when the next set of elections rolls around again, that group will prove, like in "08 to be a really loud, really gullible, misguided minority.

 

 

Time to bring back the old sig

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It is past time for TimC to come back on this thread, put this in perspective, and tell us about how this bill would be very convenient for one of his family members or relatives. :wacko:

 

I had a poker tourney last night, but there's no personal motive. I just say that I would love to have the right to fall asleep when I khnow it's my time. I'm not afraid of death (which is probably why I'm not that religious) but I am afraid of having to suffer those last few days/months/years and not being able to go peacefully. I've put down several dogs from old age and it is very peaceful and respectful. I could never let them suffer to death like we do with our elderly and I certainly would never dream of drugging my dogs up until they die "naturally". It's the most disgusting thing to me that we don't have the option. Like Sugar Magnolia said...only 500 people in her state had it done, but it's an option. It's a law, like abortions, if you don't like it then don't get it done...otherwise it really doesn't affect you. If you think that person is going to Hell because of it, then you are a judgemental idjut.

 

 

When John Boehner talked about "government forced euthenasia" I laughed out loud and thought how pathetic the Republicans have become. Who really believes this crap? Well, sadly, now I see that enough people do. I sincerely hope that when the next set of elections rolls around again, that group will prove, like in "08 to be a really loud, really gullible, misguided minority.

 

 

Time to bring back the old sig

 

I used to be a red-blooded Republican. Hell, I could have a picture of Ronald Reagan on my wall. I don't know what this party has become. I didn't vote McCain because I don't know what he was. At least the Democrats don't play games and pretend they are nothing more than bigger Government and tax and spend crazies. But at least you know what you are getting. The Republicans are all over the place. Of course, being a Conservative no longer works since the majority (it's only a slim margin, but still a majority) wants the Government to look after them so being a Conservative doesn't work. This stuff costs money eventually. Could you imagine a President saying what Kennedy said? Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country sounds quaint and old-fasioned. The reason this country is broke-ass is because everyone wants to take and no one wants to give. And I've said it many times before that we are simply passing our debt onto our children so this recession doesn't hurt as bad. We should be ashamed of ourselves as a nation. This is bad times for our country, but for other reasons than most believe. I would love to see a Republican stand up, but of course he'd get 10 votes for speaking the truth to the dumbass collective known as the American public.

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I used to be a red-blooded Republican. Hell, I could have a picture of Ronald Reagan on my wall. I don't know what this party has become. I didn't vote McCain because I don't know what he was. At least the Democrats don't play games and pretend they are nothing more than bigger Government and tax and spend crazies. But at least you know what you are getting. The Republicans are all over the place. Of course, being a Conservative no longer works since the majority (it's only a slim margin, but still a majority) wants the Government to look after them so being a Conservative doesn't work. This stuff costs money eventually. Could you imagine a President saying what Kennedy said? Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country sounds quaint and old-fasioned. The reason this country is broke-ass is because everyone wants to take and no one wants to give. And I've said it many times before that we are simply passing our debt onto our children so this recession doesn't hurt as bad. We should be ashamed of ourselves as a nation. This is bad times for our country, but for other reasons than most believe. I would love to see a Republican stand up, but of course he'd get 10 votes for speaking the truth to the dumbass collective known as the American public.

 

:wacko:

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I would love to see a Republican stand up, but of course he'd get 10 votes for speaking the truth to the dumbass collective known as the American public.

The price is being paid for pandering to the idiot classes. That cuts both ways, BTW, but as I said before, ignorance, stupidity and gullibility are in the ascendant now.

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I agree with all you say but the euthanasia problem is not just religious, it is also because of conniving relatives. This is why living wills should be mandatory.

 

I agree 100%. Me and the wife both have had living wills for at least 7 years when we took our first bare boat trip. We did it at the same time as we set up our kids trusts and determined who would be their guardian and trustee should we both die. We both are fairly religious, and we are both on the pull the plug side.

 

Still pulling the plug is a little different in my opinion than physician assisted suicide. When I think of pulling the plug, I'm thinking of brain dead, not terminal. I really don't know how I would react if I was given 6 months to live, and was guaranteed the last 3 would be a horrible existence. I don't think the federal government should have any say in it. I'd prefer it to be a states rights issue, as I would with most of the political BS we discuss, as I don't think the federal government has any business getting involved. I know if we had the option with my grandmother who died of lung cancer 15 or so years ago, we would have probably opted for the assisted suicide, just to end her misery.

 

Some one mentioned Oregon having legalized assisted suicide, and having beat the back the Bush administration in the Supreme Court. I applaud them on that. I've also heard that if you are having to rely upon Oregon's socialized medicine and you have late stage cancer you are offered hospice services or assisted suicide instead of treatment. If think that is what scares many on the right, if it is in fact true. If a "public" option is passed it is only a matter of time before all but the wealthy are looking at the government for health care, only the extremely partisan or extremely naive will argue that. If it passes, I think those on the right are scared that in later years they will be refused treatment.

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The price is being paid for pandering to the idiot classes. That cuts both ways, BTW, but as I said before, ignorance, stupidity and gullibility are in the ascendant now.

 

No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby. - H. L. Mencken
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These democrats are wimps. They give up single payer. Max Baucus who got more from Insurance companies in donations is in charge of finance? He wouldn't allow single pater to even be discussed, then they give up the public option too?

 

Obama now calls it insurance reform and Conrad who got the 3rd most from insurance companies said no public options.

 

How could the democrats put these men with serious conflicts of interest in charge.

 

The lobbyists obviously own this country.

 

$1,4 million has been spent every day this year to derail any change. UHC posted a profit increae of 155% for the 2nd quarter and had fewer subscriber which seems to mean they are rescinding people's healthcare when they get sick.

 

They are doing this to people and some are getting $100,000 bills. They did it to me and I got a $12,000 but still need surgery.

 

Let's vote everyone out of congress and start over.When they take office kick every lobbyist out. We cannot as a country sustain this.

 

What kind of people scare frail old people to protect their profits and say the president is going to kill old them? I find these people(lobbyists) completely devoid of any character.Sure people are dumb and don't realize medicare and the VA are both govt run healtkcare, but the ones bringing up Hitler are worse.

 

LIKE THESE PEOPLE

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These democrats are wimps. They give up single payer. Max Baucus who got more from Insurance companies in donations is in charge of finance? He wouldn't allow single pater to even be discussed, then they give up the public option too?

 

Obama now calls it insurance reform and Conrad who got the 3rd most from insurance companies said no public options.

 

How could the democrats put these men with serious conflicts of interest in charge.

 

The lobbyists obviously own this country.

 

$1,4 million has been spent every day this year to derail any change. UHC posted a profit increae of 155% for the 2nd quarter and had fewer subscriber which seems to mean they are rescinding people's healthcare when they get sick.

 

They are doing this to people and some are getting $100,000 bills. They did it to me and I got a $12,000 but still need surgery.

 

Let's vote everyone out of congress and start over.When they take office kick every lobbyist out. We cannot as a country sustain this.

 

What kind of people scare frail old people to protect their profits and say the president is going to kill old them? I find these people(lobbyists) completely devoid of any character.Sure people are dumb and don't realize medicare and the VA are both govt run healtkcare, but the ones bringing up Hitler are worse.

 

LIKE THESE PEOPLE

 

Yeah, kinda like the "don't vote for heffalumps, they'll take your social security and medicare" brigade did to gingGRINCH and the like. As has already been said, they're pandering to idiots to gain/maintain power.

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Yeah, kinda like the "don't vote for heffalumps, they'll take your social security and medicare" brigade did to gingGRINCH and the like. As has already been said, they're pandering to idiots to gain/maintain power.

 

America runs on stupid?

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