ok then, let's talk about "the spot"

[pig devilz]

By the way, I agree that it probably wouldn't have made a difference. I was just shocked by where they spotted the ball, considering where Faulk appeared to establish possession of the ball, even after the bobble. Whether or not he bobbled the ball has nothing to do with whether or not forward progress was established. Faulk established possession somewhere between where he initially touched the ball, and where he hits the ground. The spot looked much closer to where he hit the ground than to where he gained control of the ball. Had it been spotted more accurately, it would have at least justified a measurement... where they spotted it didn't even just ify that, as it wasn't even close to the 30. It was almost like "reverse forward progress"... in other words, just spot the ball at the furthest point back as possible.

 

That's an EXCELLENT observation It's exactly what I think happened too..

But I still dont think he made it, even with what I considered a poor spot.

imo, the correct spot still would have been short

Edited November 16, 2009 by pig devilz

[keggerz]

from the OFFICIAL NFL RULEBOOK

Article 7 A player is in possession when he is in firm grip and control of the ball inbounds

(See 3-2-3).

To gain possession of a loose ball (3-2-3) that has been caught, intercepted, or recovered,

a player must have complete control of the ball and have both feet completely on the

ground inbounds or any other part of his body, other than his hands, on the ground inbounds.

If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any other

part of his body to the ground or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous,

there is no possession. This rule applies in the field of play and in the end zone.

The terms catch, intercept, recover, advance, and fumble denote player possession (as

distinguished from touching or muffing).

Note 1: A player who goes to the ground in the process of attempting to secure possession

of a loose ball (with or without contact by a defender) must maintain control of the

ball after he touches the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses

control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, there is no

possession. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, it is a catch,

interception, or recovery.

Note 2: If a player goes to the ground out-of-bounds (with or without contact by an opponent)

in the process of attempting to secure possession of a loose ball at the sideline,

he must retain complete and continuous control of the ball throughout the act of falling

to the ground and after hitting the ground, or there is no possession.

Note 3: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered

loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has

been a loss of possession.

A catch is made when a player inbounds secures possession of a pass, kick, or fumble in

flight (See 8-1-3).

Note 1: It is a catch if in the process of attempting to catch the ball, a player secures control

of the ball prior to the ball touching the ground and that control is maintained after the

ball has touched the ground.

Note 2: In the field of play, if a catch of a forward pass has been completed, and there is

contact by a defender causing the ball to come loose before the runner is down by

contact, it is a fumble, and the ball remains alive. In the end zone, the same action is a

touchdown, since the receiver completed the catch beyond the goal line prior to the loss

of possession, and the ball is dead when the catch is completed.

 

 

Above it references rule 3-2-3 so I put that in BLUE type above and here is that rule in case anyone wants to refer to it:

 

Loose Ball

Article 3 A Loose Ball is a live ball that is not in player possession, i.e., any kick, pass,

or fumble. A loose ball that has not yet struck the ground is In Flight. A loose ball (either

during or after flight) is considered in possession of team (offense) whose player

kicked, passed, or fumbled. It ends when a player secures possession or when the

down ends if that is before such possession. (For exception, see 9-5-1-Exc. 3).

Edited November 16, 2009 by keggerz

[CaptainHook]

By the way, I agree that it probably wouldn't have made a difference. I was just shocked by where they spotted the ball, considering where Faulk appeared to establish possession of the ball, even after the bobble. Whether or not he bobbled the ball has nothing to do with whether or not forward progress was established. Faulk established possession somewhere between where he initially touched the ball, and where he hits the ground. The spot looked much closer to where he hit the ground than to where he gained control of the ball. Had it been spotted more accurately, it would have at least justified a measurement... where they spotted it didn't even just ify that, as it wasn't even close to the 30. It was almost like "reverse forward progress"... in other words, just spot the ball at the furthest point back as possible.

Dude, that's exactly what I've been saying in this thread. Do the rules require a forfeiture of "forward progress" rights for the rest of the possession if you bobble it. If that is the case, then the spot is correct.

 

If you can still establish possession after a bobble, and in the process of being forced backwards due to a tackle, can you get your forward progress from the point where you finally gained control? If that's the case, the ball should have been spotted closer to the 30 yard line.

 

keggerz, can you post the rules for forward progress?

Edited November 17, 2009 by CaptainHook

[keggerz]

from the OFFICIAL NFL RULEBOOK

Article 7 A player is in possession when he is in firm grip and control of the ball inbounds

(See 3-2-3).

To gain possession of a loose ball (3-2-3) that has been caught, intercepted, or recovered,

a player must have complete control of the ball and have both feet completely on the

ground inbounds or any other part of his body, other than his hands, on the ground inbounds.

If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any other

part of his body to the ground or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous,

there is no possession. This rule applies in the field of play and in the end zone.

The terms catch, intercept, recover, advance, and fumble denote player possession (as

distinguished from touching or muffing).

Note 1: A player who goes to the ground in the process of attempting to secure possession

of a loose ball (with or without contact by a defender) must maintain control of the

ball after he touches the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses

control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, there is no

possession. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, it is a catch,

interception, or recovery.

Note 2: If a player goes to the ground out-of-bounds (with or without contact by an opponent)

in the process of attempting to secure possession of a loose ball at the sideline,

he must retain complete and continuous control of the ball throughout the act of falling

to the ground and after hitting the ground, or there is no possession.

Note 3: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered

loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has

been a loss of possession.

A catch is made when a player inbounds secures possession of a pass, kick, or fumble in

flight (See 8-1-3).

Note 1: It is a catch if in the process of attempting to catch the ball, a player secures control

of the ball prior to the ball touching the ground and that control is maintained after the

ball has touched the ground.

Note 2: In the field of play, if a catch of a forward pass has been completed, and there is

contact by a defender causing the ball to come loose before the runner is down by

contact, it is a fumble, and the ball remains alive. In the end zone, the same action is a

touchdown, since the receiver completed the catch beyond the goal line prior to the loss

of possession, and the ball is dead when the catch is completed.

 

 

Above it references rule 3-2-3 so I put that in BLUE type above and here is that rule in case anyone wants to refer to it:

 

Loose Ball

Article 3 A Loose Ball is a live ball that is not in player possession, i.e., any kick, pass,

or fumble. A loose ball that has not yet struck the ground is In Flight. A loose ball (either

during or after flight) is considered in possession of team (offense) whose player

kicked, passed, or fumbled. It ends when a player secures possession or when the

down ends if that is before such possession. (For exception, see 9-5-1-Exc. 3).

having both FEET down could be a main component in why and where the spot was made...look at it this way...if faulk is in the air and he only gets ONE foot down and the indy defenders are able to carry him out of bounds it wouldnt have been a catch...possession didnt take place until he secured the ball and got BOTH feet down...look at the replay closely and you will see the first foot is down but he bobbles so now he needs two down and the 2nd foot comes down just about on top of the 30 and the ball was on the other side of his body....spot possibly could have been closer to the 30 but I think the Official got the call right and also think he had a better angle at the call than what the TV camera showed

[CaptainHook]

I'll answer Captain.

 

The bobble per se has/had nothing to do with it (the ruling)- other than causing posession to be maintained a split second later, which turned out to be all that was needed in this case. Possession was established in the air after the bobble (for purposes of forward progress), and yes, the spot probably should have been up just a bit. Not 1st down material, but a tad bit closer to the 30.

That's what I think too. But the way the ref was so adamant that his spot was correct due to the juggle has made me wonder what the rule is exactly.

[CaptainHook]

having both FEET down could be a main component in why and where the spot was made...look at it this way...if faulk is in the air and he only gets ONE foot down and the indy defenders are able to carry him out of bounds it wouldnt have been a catch...possession didnt take place until he secured the ball and got BOTH feet down...look at the replay closely and you will see the first foot is down but he bobbles so now he needs two down and the 2nd foot comes down just about on top of the 30 and the ball was on the other side of his body....spot possibly could have been closer to the 30 but I think the Official got the call right and also think he had a better angle at the call than what the TV camera showed

yeah, but I've seen players be given forward progress and not have ANY feet down because the defender blows him up so bad. He still gets the yardage even though his feet weren't down.

[keggerz]

Dude, that's exactly what I've been saying in this thread. Do the rules require a forfeiture of "forward progress" rights for the rest of the possession if you bobble it. If that is the case, then the spot is correct.

 

If you can still establish possession after a bobble, and in the process of being forced backwards due to a tackle, can you get your forward progress from the point where you finally gained control? If that's the case, the ball should have been spotted closer to the 30 yard line.

 

keggerz, can you post the rules for forward progress?

i can (just give me a second) but it shouldnt matter as he never had "forward progress" he was always moving backwards so the spot of the ball will be when he gains possession and is then forced backwards(or touched by defender as he is going backwards) think of it in terms near the sidelines...

[CaptainHook]

i can (just give me a second) but it shouldnt matter as he never had "forward progress" he was always moving backwards so the spot of the ball will be when he gains possession and is then forced backwards(or touched by defender as he is going backwards) think of it in terms near the sidelines...

I'd have to disagree here. If he hadn't bobbled it, his forward progress was clearly enough for the first down, IMO. Even though he did not have any feet down. His forward progress was definitely stopped by Bullitt slamming into him.

[keggerz]

hmmm still looking for something that is concrete on forward progress....not a complete section on it that I can find (yet)

[keggerz]

I'd have to disagree here. If he hadn't bobbled it, his forward progress was clearly enough for the first down, IMO. Even though he did not have any feet down. His forward progress was definitely stopped by Bullitt slamming into him.

he cant have forward progress until he has possession

 

edit: his forward progress spot was essentially determined when he had possession of the ball...he could have caught that ball at the 50 yard line but if he kept bobbling it all the way back toward the line of scrimage his forward progress would be when he finally possessed the ball

far fetched but does that make sense

Edited November 17, 2009 by keggerz

[pig devilz]

he cant have forward progress until he has possession

 

this correct. it was the bobble, not the 2 feet down, that determined the officials spot.

if he had control, he had the yardage..he didn't have control.

[keggerz]

this correct. it was the bobble, not the 2 feet down, that determined the officials spot.

if he had control, he had the yardage..he didn't have control.

actually it seems to be a combo...

 

1st possession (ie: not bobbling)

2nd both feet down

 

and this is what I could find about forward progress

 

A.R. 7.31 Second-and-10 on A30. Offensive End A1 catches a legal forward pass on the A40

where he is stopped by B1, but A1 breaks away and goes back to the A38 in an attempt

to break loose. He is tackled on the A38 by B2.

Ruling: A’s ball third-and-two on A38. No forward progress is given as he was not

stopped. He broke away before he was downed.

A.R. 7.32 Second-and-10 on A30. Both eligible offensive A1 and defensive B1 leap in the air to

catch a forward pass and collide during a legal attempt to catch ball on the 50. A1

controls the pass and falls to the ground.

Ruling: Ball is dead at spot. A’s ball first-and-10 on the 50.

A.R. 7.33 Second-and-10 on A30. Runner A1 breaks clear and is on the 50 when he slips and falls

down. B1 takes the ball from A1’s hands when A1 is on the ground.

Ruling: Blow whistle to kill play. May not take ball unless runner is on his feet. A’s ball

first-and-10 on the 50.

A.R. 7.34 Second-and-10 on A30. A backward pass from the A25 hits the ground on the A20

where a defensive player recovers and runs for a score.

Ruling: Touchdown (8-7-1).

A.R. 7.35 Second-and-goal on B4. Runner A1 gets to the goal line and ball touches goal line when

he is tackled. He fumbles and defensive B1 recovers in end zone.

Ruling: Touchdown. Ball dead as soon as ball touches goal line in player possession

(11-2-1-a).

 

 

 

 

Section 4 Dead Ball

Article 1 An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended:

(a) when a runner is out of bounds or declares himself down by falling to the ground

and makes no effort to advance.

( any time a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping his

knee to the ground) behind the line of scrimmage during the last two minutes of a

half. The game clock will not stop during this action.

© whenever a runner declares himself down by sliding feet first on the ground. The ball

is dead at the spot of the ball at the instant the runner so touches the ground.

Note: Since the down is over when any part of a sliding runner’s body, other than his

hands or feet touches the ground, defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as

they would a downed runner.

(1) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. That does not

mean that all contact by a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed

himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is not a foul unless the defender

makes some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by driving his forearm

into the head or neck area of the runner.

(2) A runner who desires to take advantage of the protection provided to a sliding

runner is responsible for starting his slide before contact by a defensive player is

imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his slide, he

puts himself in jeopardy of being tackled like a regular ball carrier.

(d) when a runner is so held or otherwise restrained that his forward progress ends.

(e) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with

any part of his body except his hands or feet, ball shall be declared dead immediately.

Note: The ball is dead at the spot of the ball at the instant the runner so touches the

ground, irrespective of the condition of the field. A runner touching the ground with his

hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to advance.

[keggerz]

i cant find an available link to the official PDF rule book I have but I did find this:

 

oh and take it with a grain of salt since the NFL didnt update their own site to fix the force out language

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/forwardpass

A forward pass is complete when a receiver clearly possesses the pass and touches the ground with both feet inbounds while in possession of the ball. If a receiver would have landed inbounds with both feet but is carried or pushed out of bounds while maintaining possession of the ball, pass is complete at the out-of-bounds spot.

[Rovers]

i cant find an available link to the official PDF rule book I have but I did find this:

 

oh and take it with a grain of salt since the NFL didnt update their own site to fix the force out language

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/forwardpass

A forward pass is complete when a receiver clearly possesses the pass and touches the ground with both feet inbounds while in possession of the ball. If a receiver would have landed inbounds with both feet but is carried or pushed out of bounds while maintaining possession of the ball, pass is complete at the out-of-bounds spot.

 

That is the old version of the rule. Now it doesnt matter if he gets forced out or not, both feet must touch inbounds for a completion.

[keggerz]

found this link (at a colts board) and the posted did a pretty good job and was using much if not all of what i posted:

http://forum.colts.com/showthread.php?t=47740

[keggerz]

That is the old version of the rule. Now it doesnt matter if he gets forced out or not, both feet must touch inbounds for a completion.

i know it is an old version...just find it funny it is on the current NFL.com site....i just used that to show a link to the other part in case anyone questioned what I am saying...the Rule Book I have access to isnt linkable but it is the official 2009 rule book and is 144 pages long so I have been using the PDF search tool to find this stuff

[CaptainHook]

found this link (at a colts board) and the posted did a pretty good job and was using much if not all of what i posted:

http://forum.colts.com/showthread.php?t=47740

You see, that's the explanation that I think proves that forward progress was not a factor in this case. I think once Faulk bobbled it, forward progress was voided. He was down where he hits the ground. Good spot.

 

This was the explanation I was looking for, and it makes sense. Thanks keg.

[Avernus]

it appeared he got control of the ball right at the 30.....if anything, the nose of the ball would have touched the 30...

 

it looked like a 1st down or at least a lot closer to a 1st down...the ref marked the ball where Faulk landed and not where he finally had the ball locked down post-bobble...

 

it was a tough call to make regardless...but from what I saw, it should have at least touched the 30 yd line....

[CaptainHook]

it appeared he got control of the ball right at the 30.....if anything, the nose of the ball would have touched the 30...

 

it looked like a 1st down or at least a lot closer to a 1st down...the ref marked the ball where Faulk landed and not where he finally had the ball locked down post-bobble...

 

it was a tough call to make regardless...but from what I saw, it should have at least touched the 30 yd line....

You see, that's what I thought too.

 

But the bobble is the key. It's no longer a forward progress issue. It is now a reception at the spot where he is touched down with contol. The 29 and a half. The spot was correct by the rules. The ref knew it instantly, and signaled it immediately. That's what made me question what the rule was. He was just so sure. He signaled the bobble twice, and he spotted it immediately where Faulk landed. It made me think he was very clear on the rule.

Edited November 17, 2009 by CaptainHook

[pig devilz]

ESPN just did a good review of the play....

The ball reaches Faulk beyond the 1st down.

He gets hit and is bobbling the ball as he's being pushed back.

His right foot touches BEYOND the 30 with what looks like possession. (not bobbling it anymore)

The ball is on the left side of his body and looks like it is INSIDE the 30.

 

it's a really tough camera angle take make a clear call watching tv.

 

Mortensen said the overseer of Officials (can't remember his name, the dude on the NFL Network)

had reviewed the cal and felt the right call was made. Had it been able to be reviewed it would not have been over turned.

It was damn close, but I still think they got it right.

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

You see, that's the explanation that I think proves that forward progress was not a factor in this case. I think once Faulk bobbled it, forward progress was voided. He was down where he hits the ground. Good spot.

 

This was the explanation I was looking for, and it makes sense. Thanks keg.

 

 

There was no 'voided' forward progress, becasue there was never any forward progress, because there wasn't a catch yet. If he caught the ball and then bobbled it, then there could have been forward progress. But the bobble was part of the catching process. In this case there was never forward progress becasue he didn't get possession of the ball until he was being tackled.

 

Had he stayed on his feet, rather than fall to the ground, and been pushed back 3 yards by a defender before being tackled, the spot would have been the same, due to to forward progress.

[i_am_the_swammi]

he cant have forward progress until he has possession

 

how many countless times have we seen a receiver leave his feet for a catch, make it, only to get knocked backwards before ever touching the ground? The refs inevitably spot the ball at the point of the catch.

 

According to what some are saying, if a WR leaps to catch a ball at the 35 yard line, makes the catch, but two defenders converge and literally carry him backwards 5 yards before his feet ever touch the ground....are you really going to spot the ball at the 30 yard line? Doubtful.

[keggerz]

having both FEET down could be a main component in why and where the spot was made...look at it this way...if faulk is in the air and he only gets ONE foot down and the indy defenders are able to carry him out of bounds it wouldnt have been a catch...possession didnt take place until he secured the ball and got BOTH feet down...look at the replay closely and you will see the first foot is down but he bobbles so now he needs two down and the 2nd foot comes down just about on top of the 30 and the ball was on the other side of his body....spot possibly could have been closer to the 30 but I think the Official got the call right and also think he had a better angle at the call than what the TV camera showed

 

 

ESPN just did a good review of the play....

The ball reaches Faulk beyond the 1st down.

He gets hit and is bobbling the ball as he's being pushed back.

His right foot touches BEYOND the 30 with what looks like possession. (not bobbling it anymore)

The ball is on the left side of his body and looks like it is INSIDE the 30.

 

it's a really tough camera angle take make a clear call watching tv.

 

Mortensen said the overseer of Officials (can't remember his name, the dude on the NFL Network)

had reviewed the cal and felt the right call was made. Had it been able to be reviewed it would not have been over turned.

It was damn close, but I still think they got it right.

[keggerz]

how many countless times have we seen a receiver leave his feet for a catch, make it, only to get knocked backwards before ever touching the ground? The refs inevitably spot the ball at the point of the catch.

 

According to what some are saying, if a WR leaps to catch a ball at the 35 yard line, makes the catch, but two defenders converge and literally carry him backwards 5 yards before his feet ever touch the ground....are you really going to spot the ball at the 30 yard line? Doubtful.

the way the rule(s) read that sure seems like the spot should be at the 30...I mean what happens if they hold him up 5 yards from the sideline and toss him OB?

[pig devilz]

 

 

lol...this is starting to get redundant.

i think i need a break.....drove myself nucking futs all day!