Kid Cid Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 no, i'm saying these issues don't need unions to fix them. and i'm not being naive on the "human decency" point. that's way over-dramatic, imo. The average worker has no voice. Stop and think about this for a second ton. If went to a small business owner and said to him, "I think you're working us too hard, I've worked 60 hour weeks for the past year and I need a break from it." that owner would offer me some type of statement to assuage my feelings and let me think that he was going to do something about the issue. Then the following Monday there would be a newly minted computer programmer in the office with his sights set on my desk. The free market measures success as profit for a business. Based on whether that business is public or private, that profit may be measured on a yearly basis or on a quarterly basis. In either case, decisions made by the business are designed to impact the numbers that represent that value, not the numbers that represent the health and/or well being of the employees. If an employee can't make it under the terms set forth by the company, then the company has the right to replace that employee. While the employee has the right to withhold their work, that only results in the employee losing their job. The employee as an individual has no power, no leverage, no rights, no voice. Th employee has no recourse through legal means either. As an individual, that person can barely get a meeting with an elected official, never mind sway them to enact laws to protect the individual. Business however, has the ear of these elected officials. After all, where does the money come from to get them elected? It is only through organization, both within and outside of the workplace that any individual has the power to effect the workplace, either directly or indirectly. And in case you haven't caught on, this is the crux of Marxist thinking which is also why it is very distasteful to many Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 The average worker has no voice. Stop and think about this for a second ton. If went to a small business owner and said to him, "I think you're working us too hard, I've worked 60 hour weeks for the past year and I need a break from it." that owner would offer me some type of statement to assuage my feelings and let me think that he was going to do something about the issue. Then the following Monday there would be a newly minted computer programmer in the office with his sights set on my desk. small businesses love loyal, dependable employees above all else. it's hard to get good people and when you have one, you reward their loyalty and they work harder for the company. it's just good business. the small business that works the hell outta their folks, doesn't reward them, doesn't listen to and act on a worker's personal concerns, will lose people and the ones they keep will not be giving it their all. let me put up a company with a team of motivated employees that believe in and appreciate their management vs. a company with a group of dissatisfied workers who feel their voice is not heard and who do you think is going to win? The free market measures success as profit for a business. Based on whether that business is public or private, that profit may be measured on a yearly basis or on a quarterly basis. In either case, decisions made by the business are designed to impact the numbers that represent that value, not the numbers that represent the health and/or well being of the employees. If an employee can't make it under the terms set forth by the company, then the company has the right to replace that employee. While the employee has the right to withhold their work, that only results in the employee losing their job. The employee as an individual has no power, no leverage, no rights, no voice. but if someone out there wants the job, is willing to do the job, say for less pay or by working more hours, they that job will get filled and the market will adjust. i'm with you on worker safety and minimum wages and ethical business practices, but if a company is playing by all the rules, then that company should be free to set its strategy and compete however it would like. that includes creating an employment proposition that is attractive to motivated, qualified people. even for fireman, police, teachers and other positions where profit is not the motive, it should be more about putting the right people in charge who are rewarded for the right things vs. folks feeling like they need to band together to be at odds with their employers. Th employee has no recourse through legal means either. As an individual, that person can barely get a meeting with an elected official, never mind sway them to enact laws to protect the individual. Business however, has the ear of these elected officials. After all, where does the money come from to get them elected? It is only through organization, both within and outside of the workplace that any individual has the power to effect the workplace, either directly or indirectly. And in case you haven't caught on, this is the crux of Marxist thinking which is also why it is very distasteful to many Americans. i don't need elected officials to have recourse via legal means. i just need a lawyer. no company wants lawsuits on their hands and no company wants the government cracking down on them for not playing fair. i'm all for supporting the individual rights of the worker to bring suit if they believe they are not treated legally or fairly and i'm all for getting the right government regulations in place to drive safe, ethical work environments. once that's in place, then [moses]let my company go[/moses]! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Insulting people is NEVER the right way to get your point across, YC. In fact, in most debates the second you insult someone is the second you lose the argument. The fact that I don't believe what you do doesn't make me an idiot, it only makes me somebody who doesn't subscribe to your views. Now you can have debate or you can behave like a 5 year old. The choice is yours - you can take the blue pill and your story ends, you can continue insulting people and think that it's making your case stronger. You take the red pill and the story continues and I show you how far the union rabbit hole goes. i just cant help it . you are a tool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) i just cant help it . you are a tool Now that's the pot calling the kettle black! Apparently what we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. You just go ahead and take that loss now. Enjoy. Edited November 23, 2009 by tosberg34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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