Automatic or Stick?

[cre8tiff]

BTW,

 

Any of you with kids... teach them to drive a stick. Taught both my daughters, and they both now drive stick cars. I didn't want my daughter stuck somewhere because she didn't learn to ever drive a stick..

[Thews40]

If you're split 50/50, a stick will have far better resale value.

This is a good point. All 4 of my cars are automatics, and if I could change that I would. The 69 Firebird is too rare to mess with, but the Trans Ams are an easy swap. If you can afford it I'd buy the new Camaro, but if you want to play with it and wrench on weekends I'd buy and older Camaro or Trans Am. They made so many of them that parts are very cheap and they make so much new stuff that new parts (like a complete interior) are cheap too.

 

If you wanna take a rocket ride, I'd buy one of these:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-De-Tom...=item4a9cb0981d

 

Most Panteras have very low miles on them, and you can get a decent car for about $40K. For $50k you might find one in near perfect shape. Some people overbuild them and install 600HP engines, but if you only drive it on weekends ho9w fun is that? Once you're done, you can re-sell it and probably make your money back.

 

Major points to ponder about considering buying an older muscelcar:

 

1) Rust is the biggest factor. Don't buy a rare car with rust... it's too much work and costs way too much to make the ROI worthwhile.

 

2) "Numbers matching" really only matters to elite cars that are 100% restored. A 73 Trans Am with a correct "numbers matching" engine will be worth more than a daily driver, but unless it's a top end uber rare car it's just not worth it. Hot rods blow engines, so it's really not going to detract from the driving experience to have the wrong engine, and will probably make the car better. The newest trend is to drop Chevy 350 crate motors into older cars and the higher end ones have fuel injection. Regarding GM cars, a Chevy will cost 1/2 what a Pontiac, Olds or Buick will cost to rebuild.

 

3) 4-speed cars are worth more than automatics, and convertibles are worth a lot more than hardtops. The driving "experience" shifting a car makes a weekend cruiser much more fun to drive. If you do buy an older automatic, a new 5-speed can be dropped in easily, and all the pedals etc. are pretty cheap for the GM cars.

 

4) If you're gonna buy a muscelcar, buy it in the winter. Once winter comes and people have to store the car, the prices go way down, especially for convertibles.

 

5) Upgrades like power steering and disc brakes are a big plus, though they weren't original. My 66 Mustang has drum brakes and manual steering, and add to that one seat belt with no shoulder harness. I'm going to sell this car in Arpil, and while it's a 6 cyl auto car, it has zero rust (came from CA) and could be upgraded easily.

 

6) "Tribute" cars are very cool. Not numbers matching, but look and run exactly like the real thing. Another plus is insurance. If you buy a Lemans that's been converted into a GTO, you pay Lemans insurance. If it's done correctly, the only way to tell is to look at the VIN. The other cool thing about tribute cars is you can do whatever you want to them... any color or performance mods.

 

These cars would all be fun:

Pontiac: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1964-Pontia...=item4a9c393f11

 

Buick: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1972-Buick-...=item5ad5572877

 

Ford: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Convertible...=item5ad549f06f

 

Lastly, at some point this kind of car became uncool, but would be a hoot to drive... if it was ever finished ...but it prolly wouldn't run most of the time.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pontiac-Fir...=item439bb9cf1a

[rajncajn]

Learned on a stick & still swear by a stick, but I now drive an automatic because I got sick of driving in the traffic with it every day.

[Furd]

It depends on the car.

 

If I were going to buy a Camaro (and I'm not because, among other things, I'm older than 30 and I don't have a mullet) I'd buy an automatic. You're never going to feel "one with the road" with that thing and I don't think that a manual transmission would enhance your driving experience. For that you need have a sports car (and drive it like a sports car.)

[wiegie]

Drive your car, don't let it drive you.

This is where you and the Big Three often miss it. Most people want a car to take them from one place to another with as little hassle as possible. That is all they want from their car. It is an appliance, not a toy.

[Big John]

I'm older than 30 and I don't have a mullet

Also applies to Puddy

[policyvote]

This is where you and the Big Three often miss it. Most people want a car to take them from one place to another with as little hassle as possible. That is all they want from their car. It is an appliance, not a toy.

 

I disagree. People like to be excited by their cars; it just depends on what excites you. For some people, it's the way the car takes a set in a corner. For others, it's the way they never feel the road at all. For some, it's the lines of the body or the vibrant color. For others, it's the feel of the interior materials. For some, it's seamless gadget integration, and for others, it's the bud vase integrated into the dash.

 

The Big Three's problem is that for a long time, they weren't building any cars that excited anybody--and they still build quite a few cars that don't excite anybody either. Compare the Chevy Aveo and the Honda Fit: exterior design, available colors, cargo hauling, driving experience, fuel economy, interior electronics materials . . . the Fit simply kicks the Aveo's ass in every measurable dimension. I had the misfortune of renting an Aveo a few months ago, and I was just marvelling at it--it's as if someone set out to design a car that did everything at a C- level or worse. Everything was stupid, futile, ugly, or poorly done.

 

Appliance? Yeah, sure, it worked as an appliance. Even the worst new car these days is more comfortable, more powerful, more reliable, and more feature-laden than what people drove in the 80s and 90s . . . but there are a lot better, hotter, sexier appliances out there. What's the result? Stripped-down Aveos flood rental lots, and Honda needed three years to build enough Fits to actually meet demand.

 

I know it's not normal to harumph about the superior road communication of a rod shift linkage over a cable linkage, I really do. But look at what Ford's doing right now versus what Toyota's doing. Ford has reinvigorated their entire lineup; all of the designs are unique, interesting, cohesive, and well-executed. The Fusion was just named Motor Trend's Car of the Year. The new Fiesta is the quality small car I never thought an American car company could build. The Flex is an iconic SUV that hauls 8, but gets class-leading mileage. If I were looking for an executive highway cruiser, the Taurus SHO would be right there on my list. The current Mustang just might be the best Mustang ever. Meanwhile . . . Toyota?

 

Two years ago, Toyota formed a "Committee to Create Interesting Cars". Why? They saw the writing on the wall. They'd turned every non-Prius vehicle in their lineup into a drab, bloated, monotone appliance . . . nobody wanted to buy a Toyota, they just did because they'd heard it was a good idea. Now, Toyota's taking a bath, to put it mildly. Everyone who bought a Toyota in 2004 because it's "what you do" moved on. Of course, Americans still think Toyota's got all those stupid old idiots in Detroit whooped silly, and are raking it in like oil tycoons, but that's just because nobody pays attention.

 

Peace

policy

[policyvote]

BTW,

 

Any of you with kids... teach them to drive a stick. Taught both my daughters, and they both now drive stick cars. I didn't want my daughter stuck somewhere because she didn't learn to ever drive a stick..

 

This is huge for me. I bought the Vibe for my wife, and made it a stick, explicitly because I never wanted her (or any of our kids) to be trapped anywhere because they didn't know how to drive a stick. Also, I wanted to expose her to why I get all worked up about cars--just like she's in my main local league, and just I ask her to read my Lions blog and give input.

 

This summer, I noticed her developing a habit of making excuses to take the Vibe out by herself. When I finally mentioned it, she said "I don't know, I just really like driving it. I just feel so much more involved, you know? It's actually fun." That was a good day.

 

Peace

policy

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Policy, you seem to be very intune with the auto industry in Detroit. Do you work for them or something?

[Chief Dick]

Policy, you seem to be very intune with the auto industry in Detroit. Do you work for them or something?

 

He's just the Cliff Clavin of Detroit.

[policyvote]

He's just the Cliff Clavin of Detroit.

 

This is probably truer than I'd like to admit.

 

The crazy thing is, I'm a driving enthusiast, and have spent my entire life in what was once the GM-est town in the world (Lansing, not Detroit). Despite growing up in a place and time where driving an import car was seen as literally putting your neighbor out of a job, I have been a Japanese-car fanatic my entire life. My first two cars were a Honda Prelude and a Honda Civic (both '91 Sis), and I currently own an Odyssey for family haulin'. I was a longtime subscriber to Sport Compact Car, and I regularly read other car magazines, websites and blogs, and have accounts at many car forums (though rarely post anywhere anymore).

 

The fact of the matter is, when the car market and credit market simultaneously collapsed, the Japanese companies became what the Americans were in the 80s--overexpanded, overentrenched, and far more concerned with feathering their nest than pushing the envelope. The rise of KIa and Hyundai as viable options decimated the Honda/Toyota/Nissan dominance of the B-class--meaning Civics, Corollas, and Sentras are suddenly premium options in a budget segment. Meanwhile, Ford and GM are finally adapting to their new roles as underdogs--innovating, gambling, and risking it all to come out on top.

 

Moreover, the spirit of building driver's cars is at least present at Ford and GM. Honda used to be an automaker committed to taut, focused cars that were fun to drive, no matter the segment. Now they build hideous, bloated monstrosities like the Accord Crosstour.

 

Yeah, I've switched from being a diehard import-only guy to being a "Have you driven a Ford lately?" guy--and yeah, it's partly because as I've grown, I've learned how much of what's left of my state's economy is dependent upon it. But I'm also a legitimately a fan of what Ford and GM are doing these days--and I legitimately detest what the Japanese companies' products have become.

 

Peace

policy

Edited December 3, 2009 by policyvote

[Puddy]

Also applies to Puddy

Yeah...I think that's his not so subtle point.

 

But I don't care

[Puddy]

I should add that I'm basing my opinion on the fact that I really like the look of the car and what I've seen on the internet. I haven't driven one yet but I have a raging erection for one (see Swammi....mine still works too.)

[wiegie]

Two years ago, Toyota formed a "Committee to Create Interesting Cars". Why? They saw the writing on the wall. They'd turned every non-Prius vehicle in their lineup into a drab, bloated, monotone appliance . . . nobody wanted to buy a Toyota, they just did because they'd heard it was a good idea. Now, Toyota's taking a bath, to put it mildly. Everyone who bought a Toyota in 2004 because it's "what you do" moved on.

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_30...html#autosalesD

 

[Egret]

As another guy in GM-Land, I can see wiege and policy's side. I do see first hand the effects of a crappy car market. The auto plants that were less than a mile from my job are now gone. When they left, so did the jobs. Soon after, so did a lot of the students that I teach. That being said, I want my car to be like an appliance.

 

I want my refrigerator to keep my food cold. I want my furnace to heat my home. I want my car to get me from point a to point b. I want my refrigerator to look nice, but I really just want it to keep my food cold.

 

There was a time that I wanted a sporty car. I drove an import in a GM town. I liked it. It got me places quickly, and it was fun to drive. When it came time for a new car, we used a family member's GM discount and got a basic, boring Malibu. At first I didn't care for it, but then I realized I'm not a car guy. There's a lot of other things I care about more than a car. I will drive my current car until it dies at the side of the road. When it dies, I will buy another refrigerator type car. I hope that it's an American car, but I won't pay more for a crappier car.

 

Living in Lansing, I would guess ten years ago 90% of the cars on the way to work were American. Today it's probably 75%. In a GM town, there's still a lot of American cars, but there's more and more imports too. I doubt there's many hassles from people about driving an import too. There should be room for both refrigerator cars and cars for people who love cars.

 

 

As far as a Camaro, it looks like a fun, fast car. Make sure you can fit your sub-woofer in the trunk.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Egret

[policyvote]

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_30...html#autosalesD

 

 

. . . what are you trying to highlight here?

[wiegie]

. . . what are you trying to highlight here?

the fact that toyota's market share is continuing to increase (despite your claim that Toyota is taking a bath because people don't want to buy their boring cars anymore).

[TimC]

Egret, it's funny...if work in a GM plant and don't drive a GM car, they make you park in a special lot as far away as possible. I've gone to Bowling Green for 8 years or so to the Corvette plant and the foreign lot in that plant has gotten bigger every year. Two years ago they were paving it to make it bigger.

[wiegie]

Egret, it's funny...if work in a GM plant and don't drive a GM car, they make you park in a special lot as far away as possible. I've gone to Bowling Green for 8 years or so to the Corvette plant and the foreign lot in that plant has gotten bigger every year. Two years ago they were paving it to make it bigger.

How many Corvettes do you see in the GM lot?

[The Holy Roller]

STICK. Real men are used to them!

[policyvote]

the fact that toyota's market share is continuing to increase (despite your claim that Toyota is taking a bath because people don't want to buy their boring cars anymore).

 

Huh? Are you looking at the November snapshots or the YTD numbers? The only manufacturers actually increasing their sales from YTD 2008 to YTD 2009 are Kia, Hyundai, and Subaru. Toyota's down 23.8%, Ford's down 19%, and GM's down 31.6%--and those are just since 2008. I'm talking about the trends over the past two and three years . . . here, check out the ten-year graphic:

 

http://online.wsj.com/media/AUTOSALE.gif

 

legend is on this one:

 

http://online.wsj.com/media/AUTOYLY.gif

 

at the tail end of the graph, Ford rebounds and gains share, Toyota and Honda plateau, GM and Chrysler continue their slide. I'm not saying nobody's buying Toyotas anymore. I'm saying that they're taking a bath right now (and they are, and that's a fact--did you look at their announced results? I linked to them). This is contrary to the ridiculous "common knowledge" that the whole rest of the world's automakers are rolling in profits while the Big 3 hemorrhage cash. Toyota's losing money like crazy, too, and partly because they've been working from the assumption that their market share was going to continue to rise inexorably upward--not plateau.

 

Peace

policy

 

PS--in truth, the rest of the world HAS lapped Chrysler. They're going to be a very expensive hobby for Fiat over the next 5 years.

Edited December 3, 2009 by policyvote

[Gonkis]

You can't drive a non-Ford on the premises of the Ford Casting Plant in Cleveland. You have to park a mile or so from the security point and hoof it if you do. Those guys in the foundry don't drive Foreign cars, the lot is full of Ford Trucks.

 

A few years back, I went and the loading dock personnel had picked up a Honda Accord that made it through the gate somehow to the inner lot and placed it on blocks. He had to jack it up to get it out of there.

 

That said, the Ford Explorer I leased in 1995 was 80% foreign, the lines are getting more and more muddy.

[TimC]

How many Corvettes do you see in the GM lot?

 

Not as many as you'd think. I'd guesstimate it's about 7% Corvettes...they get to park right up front...3% foreign and 90% other GM trucks and cars.

 

With the discount the employees get on GM cars, it's understandable. I personally wouldn't want to be the one driving the foreign car working there.

Edited December 3, 2009 by TimC

[Puddy]

That being said, I want my car to be like an appliance.

 

I want my refrigerator to keep my food cold. I want my furnace to heat my home. I want my car to get me from point a to point b. I want my refrigerator to look nice, but I really just want it to keep my food cold.

 

That's pretty much the guy I've been my entire life. Here's a list of my cars since I graduated college:

 

1995 Dodge Neon

1997 Ford Taurus (wife totaled it after 9 months)

1998 Ford Taurus (but this time I went for the leather seats and moon roof with chrome rims )

2003 Chrylser Pacifica

2007 Honda Accord

 

I've been a practical car driving momo since day 1. I don't need the family car any longer. My wife has a Chevy Traverse that we can go anywhere we want in with extra room. I want to finally drive something I actually like. Maybe it is a 'phase' but damn it, I want to enjoy my next car. At least it has a back seat that will fit my kids (only) when we want to cruise around and have a little fun.

 

Oh and I'll have to look into that subwoofer I wouldn't mind bumpin' some MC Breed through the neighborhood.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Puddy

[wiegie]

Not as many as you'd think. I'd guesstimate it's about 7% Corvettes

uh, that's about seven percentage points higher than what I expected