STL Fan Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Actually, any introductory pre-law class would tell you differently. What is legal is not necessarily moral and the other way around... but when people like you suppose that everything that is legal is moral, then that is why we end up needing morality rules. You're correct that it's incredibly difficult to enforce, but that doesn't make it ethical. Excellent point, but I believe you're Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mucca Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I stand corrected, Your Majesty, you certainly have earned the right to seed the last two spots in the bracket because of your incredible performance this season. As was stated earlier, this isn't a rules question, it's a moral question. If it doesn't bother you, then do it. Just don't be shocked when the people in your league call you out for being a d!ck. And a cheater, along with your Dad, you two might want to find a new league to join next year because I doubt the other teams will want you guys back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDoIt Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 Tanking so that two people in the same family have a better chance of winning the money is collusion in my book. False. If both teams are in the same bracket (assuming all games are 50/50) the 5 seed would have a 50/50 shot at making it to the semi-final round. The one seed will already be there with a 50/50 shot at winning that round, but half of his losses would be to the 5 seed. So one of the two teams will make the playoffs 75% of the time. Resulting in 37.5% chance of winning it all. If both teams are in opposite brackets. The team with the bye will have a 50 % chance of making the championship, meanwhile the low seed family member will have a 25% chance of making the superbowl. Since their results have no influence on each other they would have a 75% chance of making the championship. Resulting in 37.5% chance of winning it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Actually, any introductory pre-law class would tell you differently. What is legal is not necessarily moral and the other way around... but when people like you suppose that everything that is legal is moral, then that is why we end up needing morality rules. You're correct that it's incredibly difficult to enforce, but that doesn't make it ethical. Oh I agree whole-heartedly with the bolded part above. But I have yet to have somebody adequately explain why a strategy that I employ to enhance my ability to win the game is morally wrong when it isn't against the rules. I also have not heard anybody explain how an asinine rule that says you must start a competitive lineup can be enforced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Fan Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Oh I agree whole-heartedly with the bolded part above. But I have yet to have somebody adequately explain why a strategy that I employ to enhance my ability to win the game is morally wrong when it isn't against the rules. I also have not heard anybody explain how an asinine rule that says you must start a competitive lineup can be enforced. Wait, you said you agreed with the bolded part that said "What is legal is not necessarily moral and the other way around... but when people like you suppose that everything that is legal is moral, then that is why we end up needing morality rules." And then above you say "I have yet to have somebody adequately explain why a strategy that I employ to enhance my ability to win the game is morally wrong when it isn't against the rules." Do you see the gigantic contradiction there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Wait, you said you agreed with the bolded part that said "What is legal is not necessarily moral and the other way around... but when people like you suppose that everything that is legal is moral, then that is why we end up needing morality rules." And then above you say "I have yet to have somebody adequately explain why a strategy that I employ to enhance my ability to win the game is morally wrong when it isn't against the rules." Do you see the gigantic contradiction there? No. At work is it morally wrong for you to out-perform a co-worker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Fan Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 No. At work is it morally wrong for you to out-perform a co-worker? I'm dying to see how this could be relevant . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mucca Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 False. If both teams are in the same bracket (assuming all games are 50/50) the 5 seed would have a 50/50 shot at making it to the semi-final round. The one seed will already be there with a 50/50 shot at winning that round, but half of his losses would be to the 5 seed. So one of the two teams will make the playoffs 75% of the time. Resulting in 37.5% chance of winning it all. If both teams are in opposite brackets. The team with the bye will have a 50 % chance of making the championship, meanwhile the low seed family member will have a 25% chance of making the superbowl. Since their results have no influence on each other they would have a 75% chance of making the championship. Resulting in 37.5% chance of winning it all. That's a crock, if you tank you won't play till the championship, week 3, If you don't tank, you play in week 2. That my friend is a better chance for each of you if you tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDoIt Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 And a cheater, along with your Dad, you two might want to find a new league to join next year because I doubtthe other teams will want you guys back. So, neither of us would actually have a better chance of winning the championship. Now, do you see this equally morally wrong as the post below, because i see no ethical difference... I had already locked up a playoff spot before this week, and I benched my entire roster to keep from playing the highest scoring team in the league next week in the playoffs. In my opinion, as long as you're doing it for your own advatange and not to help someone else gain a playoff spot....who gives a rats ass? Its your team...do what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I'm dying to see how this could be relevant . . . When you out-perform your co-worker you get the bigger pay raise and/or bonus essentially taking money out of his pocket and putting into yours. If only you would perform at a more "fair" level then you could both get equal pay and equal bonuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Fan Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 When you out-perform your co-worker you get the bigger pay raise and/or bonus essentially taking money out of his pocket and putting into yours. If only you would perform at a more "fair" level then you could both get equal pay and equal bonuses. Oh man, it was even better than I had hoped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mucca Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 So, neither of us would actually have a better chance of winning the championship. Now, do you see this equally morally wrong as the post below, because i see no ethical difference... No, you are colluding with your Dad and both should be kicked out of the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Fan Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 So, neither of us would actually have a better chance of winning the championship. Now, do you see this equally morally wrong as the post below, because i see no ethical difference... I also see no difference. Both wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDoIt Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) That's a crock, if you tank you won't play till the championship, week 3, If you don't tank, you play in week 2. That my friend is a better chance for each of you if you tank. That is not crock... that is fact... prove me if i am wrong. If i don't tank, there is no chance of us both being in the ship, but there is a much better chance of having a team in final game. So if i do tank, there is a 50% chance that he does not make it, and a 75% chance i don't. Which means that 37.5% of the time, neither of us will make it. If I do not tank, there is a 75% chance we meet in the semis and of coarse, one of us will win in that scenerio, so 75% of the time, one of us will make it.. I think that is the part you do not seem to follow me on. Edited December 8, 2009 by JustDoIt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDoIt Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 No, you are colluding with your Dad and both should be kicked out of the league. How are we colluding if neither of us are actually increasing the chance that we win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Fan Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 That is not crock... that is fact... prove me if i am wrong. If i don't tank, there is no chance of us both being in the ship, but there is a much better chance of having a team in final game. So if i do tank, there is a 50% chance that he does not make it, and a 75% chance i don't. Which means that 37.5% of the time, neither of us will make it. If I do not tank, there is a 75% chance we meet in the semis and of coarse, one of us will win in that scenerio, so 75% of the time, one of us will make it.. I think that is the part you do not seem to follow me on. Dude it doesn't matter what the odds are, it's the morality of the move itself and the motivation. If you're intentionally tanking a game to affect the standings, that's wrong. The precentages are a silly red herring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mucca Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 You are both in different divisions, that means both of you can go to the championship game. If you don't tank, only one of you can go, therefore a worse chance of either one winning. Kinda simple really, you can spew your little math all you want, you are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mucca Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 How are we colluding if neither of us are actually increasing the chance that we win? It gives you both a better chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Fan Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 So the key question is - what did you do? The game has started, which way did you go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDoIt Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 This is where we disagree. I think that if you have won enough games and had a good enough season, you should be able to try and work for the playoff seed that would best fit for you. I see no obligation that says that while everyone is fighting to make it into the playoffs, you need to be working towards something that you believe will get you a better chance for a loss in the future. It seems ridiculous. Now that being said, I would never do that if it had a chance of affecting who would make the playoffs, as I would always feel an obligation to filed the best line-up. So I see nothing wrong with me sitting Rice today (if I would have done it) and i see nothing wrong with the below post, unless he was affecting other playoffs spots, which chances are, he was. I had already locked up a playoff spot before this week, and I benched my entire roster to keep from playing the highest scoring team in the league next week in the playoffs. In my opinion, as long as you're doing it for your own advatange and not to help someone else gain a playoff spot....who gives a rats ass? Its your team...do what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDoIt Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) You are both in different divisions, that means both of you can go to the championship game.If you don't tank, only one of you can go, therefore a worse chance of either one winning. Kinda simple really, you can spew your little math all you want, you are wrong. I believe STL fan is understanding the math rather than your reasoning... Am i right? And both Rice and Crosby are active... Here is to cheering against the obth of the,/. Edited December 8, 2009 by JustDoIt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Fan Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) This is where we disagree. I think that if you have won enough games and had a good enough season, you should be able to try and work for the playoff seed that would best fit for you. I see no obligation that says that while everyone is fighting to make it into the playoffs, you need to be working towards something that you believe will get you a better chance for a loss in the future. It seems ridiculous. Now that being said, I would never do that if it had a chance of affecting who would make the playoffs, as I would always feel an obligation to filed the best line-up. So I see nothing wrong with me sitting Rice today (if I would have done it) and i see nothing wrong with the below post, unless he was affecting other playoffs spots, which chances are, he was. Man, you're really splitting hairs here aren't you. It's OK to tank if it only affects seeding, but not if it affects playoff spots? And what if your math is wrong or a tie-breaker swings the wrong way on points or something? IMO - Tanking is wrong, regardless of the situation. ETA and by the way, you've lost Grits here, he says it's OK to tank anytime you want if it helps your team, regardless of the affect on the rest of the league. Edited December 8, 2009 by STL Fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDoIt Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 Man, you're really splitting hairs here aren't you. It's OK to tank if it only affects seeding, but not if it affects playoff spots? And what if your math is wrong or a tie-breaker swings the wrong way on points or something? IMO - Tanking is wrong, regardless of the situation. And i guess that is where we disagree. I do not believe it is technically wrong even if it affects who makes the playoffs. I would never do it if it could possibly affect who makes the playoffs just because i don't want to be that guy. You play to win the championship, not to get the high seeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Fan Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 And i guess that is where we disagree. I do not believe it is technically wrong even if it affects who makes the playoffs. I would never do it if it could possibly affect who makes the playoffs just because i don't want to be that guy. You play to win the championship, not to get the high seeds. I do find it interesting that both you and Grits find nothing wrong with it, but both of you say you personally would never do it. Doesn't that mean you have a problem with it? Doesn't that mean your gut tells you it's wrong? If you don't think it's wrong, why would you not do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Couch Potatoe Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I love it when people post a question and when they don't get the answer they want they proceed to argue that they are right!! So why even ask the question if u feel like u already know the answer! Lookin for a pat on the back and an it will be ok pal from people on the forum? Herman Edwards "You play to win the game" Herman Edwards!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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