Did you know people are poor?

[tosberg34]

He's right, of course, and so are you but it still doesn't detract from the number of people on food stamps and the increase thereof. Also, food stamps can't be used on prepared hot meals such as junk fast food, according to the original article.

 

Yes, I know. I worked in a food store for 13 years and in the inner city for 5 of those. I am well versed in the food stamp program.

[tosberg34]

He's right, of course, and so are you but it still doesn't detract from the number of people on food stamps and the increase thereof. Also, food stamps can't be used on prepared hot meals such as junk fast food, according to the original article.

 

I forgot to add that while it can't be used on hot meals or fast food, it can be used on Twinkies, Doritos, Soda and all that other crap you can get in the gorcery aisle.

[Ursa Majoris]

I forgot to add that while it can't be used on hot meals or fast food, it can be used on Twinkies, Doritos, Soda and all that other crap you can get in the gorcery aisle.

True. I remember some mumbling here in MN about making some foods ineligible but it was decided it would be too difficult and cost more than it's worth given the millions of varieties.

[Delicious_bass]

True. I remember some mumbling here in MN about making some foods ineligible but it was decided it would be too difficult and cost more than it's worth given the millions of varieties.

Back when food stamps were basically a paper "coupon", one of the ways some people used to manipulate the system was to use a larger denomination stamp to buy something cheap and then use the change for cigarettes or booze. When I was in HS, I worked at a grocery store and we were told to watch out for this. The system has changed over the years to help guard against this type of thing...

[Perchoutofwater]

BTW, I hate tax cheats as much if not more than I do those that free load the entitlements system. That is the reason I hate most of Obama's appointees (sorry couldn't help myself). Seriously I've long been a proponent of either a flat tax with no deductions (loopholes) or a sales tax instead of the current tax code. I have no idea where Ursa thinks tax cheats should get off free, unless it is from the current administration.

[Ursa Majoris]

I have no idea where Ursa thinks tax cheats should get off free, unless it is from the current administration.

Two things:

 

As always, you deliberately miss the point which was that the lost money penalty of tax cheating is massively greater than the right's favorite talking point, which is welfare and how everything would be hunky-dory if we could just stop welfare scrounging. I demonstrated above that the entire food stamps program costs about one-sixteenth of what is lost to tax cheating on income tax alone.

Secondly, I actually used Tom Daschle as my example tax cheat. Tom Daschle is a Democrat who cheated on his taxes.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Ursa Majoris

[Perchoutofwater]

Two things:

 

As always, you deliberately miss the point which was that the lost money penalty of tax cheating is massively greater than the right's favorite talking point, which is welfare and how everything would be hunky-dory if we could just stop welfare scrounging. I demonstrated above that the entire food stamps program costs about one-sixteenth of what is lost to tax cheating on income tax alone.

Secondly, I actually used Tom Daschle as my example tax cheat. Tom Daschle is a Democrat who cheated on his taxes.

 

And you seem to forget most everyone on the right would like to abolish the income tax, or at the very least get rid of all deductions and go to a flat tax, either of which would eliminate the vast majority of tax cheating. It would also do away with a great deal of the political favors everyone seems to complain about but do nothing to stop.

[Ursa Majoris]

And you seem to forget most everyone on the right would like to abolish the income tax, or at the very least get rid of all deductions and go to a flat tax, either of which would eliminate the vast majority of tax cheating. It would also do away with a great deal of the political favors everyone seems to complain about but do nothing to stop.

I could get behind major changes to the tax code but I have a suspicion that if "the right" is in favor of something, it's going to be fishy.

[Perchoutofwater]

I could get behind major changes to the tax code but I have a suspicion that if "the right" is in favor of something, it's going to be fishy.

 

Yet those of us that have a suspicion that it "the left" is in favor of something, it's going to be fishy are partisan hacks.

[WaterMan]

Copying the article here so I can bold a few things.

 

 

 

A few points:

 

28 million Americans on food stamps in an average month, or 10% of the population. Let's assume four per household, so 7 million households.

$222 per month per household - NOT per person - on average

So we have a total spend of 7 million x $222 = $1.554 billion / month, or $18.65 billion annually.

 

And that's the ENTIRE program. Like I said, it's a gnat on a rhino's ass.

 

What's really sad is we can hand out bailout money and bullets, but not spend money to create jobs for people. If things get worse in the job market, I expect the new divide to be rich vs poor instead of democrat vs republican.

[gbpfan1231]

Two things:

 

As always, you deliberately miss the point which was that the lost money penalty of tax cheating is massively greater than the right's favorite talking point, which is welfare and how everything would be hunky-dory if we could just stop welfare scrounging. I demonstrated above that the entire food stamps program costs about one-sixteenth of what is lost to tax cheating on income tax alone.

Secondly, I actually used Tom Daschle as my example tax cheat. Tom Daschle is a Democrat who cheated on his taxes.

You missed the point that we were not talking about taxes or about the size of the welfare program - only about people who abuse the assistance they get - you seem to keep pushing about the size of the program and tax cheats - that is only you and trying to change the discussion into something else.

 

Again - we don't like tax cheats - happy now?

[bpwallace49]

And you seem to forget most everyone on the right would like to abolish the income tax, or at the very least get rid of all deductions and go to a flat tax, either of which would eliminate the vast majority of tax cheating. It would also do away with a great deal of the political favors everyone seems to complain about but do nothing to stop.

 

Odd . . . I know and worked with a whole lot of people that are on the right. A lot of them are accountants and lawyers that make a very good living by keeping the massive tax code exactly the way it is . . . . because it keeps them wealthy? But I am suuuure in Texas it is completely different . .

[bpwallace49]

You missed the point that we were not talking about taxes or about the size of the welfare program - only about people who abuse the assistance they get - you seem to keep pushing about the size of the program and tax cheats - that is only you and trying to change the discussion into something else.

 

Again - we don't like tax cheats - happy now?

 

Ac`tually you seem to be fixated on the exceptions (people that are somehow gaming free stamps for peanut butter) rather than why this situation continues to plague people and how many people have needed public assistance lately.

 

Again, no one like people that agme the system . . in any capacity. You REALLY need to get over this point . . .

[Perchoutofwater]

Odd . . . I know and worked with a whole lot of people that are on the right. A lot of them are accountants and lawyers that make a very good living by keeping the massive tax code exactly the way it is . . . . because it keeps them wealthy? But I am suuuure in Texas it is completely different . .

 

No doubt there are certain segments that have a vested interest in keeping it the way it is. Of course the American Bar Association typically falls on the left hand side of the divide. I'm not sure about the bean counters. Point being those that don't work in the "tax industry" on the right typically (not even all of them) want a simplified tax system that is either a flat tax or a consumption tax. Both of these would help do a way with the majority of the "tax industry", and tax evasion. Or, at the very least make tax evasion much easier to catch and prosecute.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Perchoutofwater

[bpwallace49]

Are there really people in the US that dont know by now that eating junk food and not excercising will most likely lead to them becoming fat? Are there really people that dont understand that unprotected sex can lead to pregnancy?

 

If people are getting enough calories that they become obese, then it seems to me the problem is more the choices they make with the resources they have rather than the lack of resources per se.

 

Yes there are.

 

While we are talking about kids being malnourished, you talk about an obesity epidemic. Where does it say that the people on food stamps and malnourished kids are also obese? I would say that people that grew up not having enough food can OVER compensate when the do have enough to eat. Couple that with a nationwide decline in exercise and sitting in front of the TV playing video games, and YES you have people that either dont know what the right choices are or that dont care.

 

I see more obese kids in rich families than I see at the local food pantry . . and it aint even close . .

[Perchoutofwater]

Yes there are.

 

While we are talking about kids being malnourished, you talk about an obesity epidemic. Where does it say that the people on food stamps and malnourished kids are also obese? I would say that people that grew up not having enough food can OVER compensate when the do have enough to eat. Couple that with a nationwide decline in exercise and sitting in front of the TV playing video games, and YES you have people that either dont know what the right choices are or that dont care.

 

I see more obese kids in rich families than I see at the local food pantry . . and it aint even close . .

 

Define rich please. I see more obese kids from middle class families than I do from the poor or the rich, though the poor tend to be fatter than the rich. See if you follow me. Healthier foods are often more expensive and in many cases take longer to prepare. Additionally the poor tend to eat more high calorie high fat fast food than do the middle class and the rich. Additionally new studies show over-indebtedness leads to obesity. Now I believe you are correct that the poor tend to get more exercise than the middle class (and possibly the rich), as they may not have the XBOX or PS3 to sit in front of, though ownership of these is starting to be viewed as a right citizenship much like the ownership of a television, so even the poor aren't getting the exercise they once did. The middle class seems to be the fattest based on my general observations, as they do have the resources for more indoor distractions and while they may have a nice home cooked meal at night they are eating crap during the day. The rich on the other hand can afford the healthier food and snacks. While they obviously have the indoor distractions the middle class has, I'm seeing a trend of more exercise from them via fitness trainers and sport specific private coaches.

[bpwallace49]

Define rich please. I see more obese kids from middle class families than I do from the poor or the rich, though the poor tend to be fatter than the rich. See if you follow me. Healthier foods are often more expensive and in many cases take longer to prepare. Additionally the poor tend to eat more high calorie high fat fast food than do the middle class and the rich. Additionally new studies show over-indebtedness leads to obesity. Now I believe you are correct that the poor tend to get more exercise than the middle class (and possibly the rich), as they may not have the XBOX or PS3 to sit in front of, though ownership of these is starting to be viewed as a right citizenship much like the ownership of a television, so even the poor aren't getting the exercise they once did. The middle class seems to be the fattest based on my general observations, as they do have the resources for more indoor distractions and while they may have a nice home cooked meal at night they are eating crap during the day. The rich on the other hand can afford the healthier food and snacks. While they obviously have the indoor distractions the middle class has, I'm seeing a trend of more exercise from them via fitness trainers and sport specific private coaches.

 

I somewhat agree on some points.

 

1.) I agree and amend my statements from rich kids to say "kids that arent poor" that encompasses the middle class.

2.) healthier foods do NOT have to be purchased at Whole Foods every day. It stands to logic that people in the middle class and upper classes have better education backgrounds right? So they may have a better knowledge of healthy choices and the ramifications of what eating crap foods can do to you over time.

3.) Over-indebtedness can result is guess what! Poor people! Add in a disappearing middle class that is rapidly dropping into a lower economic tax bracket and you can add crushing depression to that debt, which can manifest itself in overeating. Actually if you add in how easily people can slip into debt because of health care debt, that can create a circle of obesity that it can very very hard to escape from.

4.) I dont know where you think that middle class families always get a nice home cooked meal from, but with the growth of 2 income families plus the readily available fast food society we have means less home cooked meals in general. Then if you add in the conveneince factor when you ahve to shuttle kids from activity to activity, and you see even more of a drift away from home cooked meals. IMO I bet that the US is one of the most obese countries on earth . . even though I just dont have the tiem to back that assertion up . . .

5.) Perch, I dont think that ability to afford healthier snacks is much less than having the proper education and knowledge to make the right nutritional choices. You inherited a construction company from your dad, right? I will venture that you are upper middle class, especially when you state all teh additional benefits that your employees get versus joining a union, yada, yada yada . . Do you ever eat fast food? Is your wife a stay at home Mom?

 

Knowing exactly how food stamps work in WI (from several down on thier luck people) you get vouchers that can ONLY be used for certain things and have no cash value. You get x amount of gallons of milk, formula, peanut butter, bread, etc a week. You dont get change, and you cant use it for alcohol or cigarettes. It is a beginning step by limiting theor food choices to healthy options that provide balanced nutrition versus junk food. Ya cant use it for Red Bull and Doritos in other words . . .

 

Does anyone remember learning the food pyramid in school? Or having Home Ec required where you learned about food? Do they still do this?? I know that Gym classes have been under attack and reducing in school systems, which add to obesity, no matter how much your parents make . . .

[Delicious_bass]

Yes there are.

 

While we are talking about kids being malnourished, you talk about an obesity epidemic. Where does it say that the people on food stamps and malnourished kids are also obese? I would say that people that grew up not having enough food can OVER compensate when the do have enough to eat. Couple that with a nationwide decline in exercise and sitting in front of the TV playing video games, and YES you have people that either dont know what the right choices are or that dont care.

 

I see more obese kids in rich families than I see at the local food pantry . . and it aint even close . .

The original article posted in this thread says half of all kids(90% of black kids) have been or will be on food stamps. The stats I found from the CDC state that obesity is growing at an alarming rate (particularly amongst blacks). So I looked at those numbers and found it curious that the group getting the highest percentage of the food stamps is the same group with the highest increase in obesity.

 

You mention that some of these people dont have enough to eat and/or over-eat when they do get food, but then also mention part of the obesity problem is kids sitting in front of the tv playing video games? Pardon me for asking, but what are people who cant afford food doing with video games?

 

The point I tried to make(and continue to try to make) is that there is evidence to suggest that a lot of people who are in bad situations got there via bad choices and/or have not been able to get out of those situations due to continued bad choices. Having kids when you are in dire straits and cant provide for yourself is irresponsible and helps ensure that those people will never escape the poverty cycle. Remember, the original article's findings were based on the past 30 years of data. It mentions the numbers are likely to increase due to recent economic troubles, but (for the most part) the numbers are based on historical data and indicate trends that shouldnt be ignored.

[Perchoutofwater]

5.) Perch, I dont think that ability to afford healthier snacks is much less than having the proper education and knowledge to make the right nutritional choices. You inherited a construction company from your dad, right? I will venture that you are upper middle class, especially when you state all teh additional benefits that your employees get versus joining a union, yada, yada yada . . Do you ever eat fast food? Is your wife a stay at home Mom?

 

Knowing exactly how food stamps work in WI (from several down on thier luck people) you get vouchers that can ONLY be used for certain things and have no cash value. You get x amount of gallons of milk, formula, peanut butter, bread, etc a week. You dont get change, and you cant use it for alcohol or cigarettes. It is a beginning step by limiting theor food choices to healthy options that provide balanced nutrition versus junk food. Ya cant use it for Red Bull and Doritos in other words . . .

 

Does anyone remember learning the food pyramid in school? Or having Home Ec required where you learned about food? Do they still do this?? I know that Gym classes have been under attack and reducing in school systems, which add to obesity, no matter how much your parents make . . .

 

My wife is a special ed teacher. We eat out two to three night a week depending on what the kids activities may be. The rest of the time we cook at the house, or warm up something we cooked over the weekend. Of the two to three nights a week we eat out, usually one of them is at a traditional type restaurant. The fast food place we visit most is Subway, one because it offers healthier choices, and two it is the second closest fast food place to our house. We limit our dinners to one burger/chicken finger joint a week.

 

BTW I used to know a guy that bought food stamps at 50 cents on the dollar. He'd give people cash for them so they could go buy booze. They have made it much harder to do that in the last 10 years or so, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is still done and done on a fairly widespread basis.

[bpwallace49]

BTW I used to know a guy that bought food stamps at 50 cents on the dollar. He'd give people cash for them so they could go buy booze. They have made it much harder to do that in the last 10 years or so, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is still done and done on a fairly widespread basis.

 

BTW In WI you have signature checks and have to check an ID to cash in your food assistance. Therefore a lot harder to committ fraud for a jar of peanut butter.

[bpwallace49]

The original article posted in this thread says half of all kids(90% of black kids) have been or will be on food stamps. The stats I found from the CDC state that obesity is growing at an alarming rate (particularly amongst blacks). So I looked at those numbers and found it curious that the group getting the highest percentage of the food stamps is the same group with the highest increase in obesity.

 

You mention that some of these people dont have enough to eat and/or over-eat when they do get food, but then also mention part of the obesity problem is kids sitting in front of the tv playing video games? Pardon me for asking, but what are people who cant afford food doing with video games?

 

The point I tried to make(and continue to try to make) is that there is evidence to suggest that a lot of people who are in bad situations got there via bad choices and/or have not been able to get out of those situations due to continued bad choices. Having kids when you are in dire straits and cant provide for yourself is irresponsible and helps ensure that those people will never escape the poverty cycle. Remember, the original article's findings were based on the past 30 years of data. It mentions the numbers are likely to increase due to recent economic troubles, but (for the most part) the numbers are based on historical data and indicate trends that shouldnt be ignored.

 

Sooo most people simple CHOOSE to be poor? Is that the direction here? People available for food stamps make under 22k a year. I think you are confusing destitute people in shelters with what we are talking about here. IMO we are talking about people that make under the poverty threshold and cant get out. Even being under 22k can mean you have a Christmas gift . . and the majority of US society is hell bent of video games and TV.

 

The point I offer is that without proper education to help these people learn the differences between these decisons, it is a self-fulfilling circle of poverty. Better options for food that dont involve fast food. In fact, I encoiurage you to look up the problem of "food deserts" in urban areas that prevent poor people from having access to healthier food choices. I was seriously asking if schools still teaach Home Ec and the food pyramid, (my kids are too little) because I see that as well as Gym class being important to combat childhood obesity.

 

Yourlink between the two is valid, but to me the problem of education and oipportunity continue to be paramount. If parents are not taught skills of what proper food is for kids/themselves or how to cook, or how to balance a checkbook properly then how can they teach those things to their kids? This is a circular argument . . .

 

There is no doubt that people make bad choices. I offer that what seems common sense to you or I, may not be to others. I assume that you understand that armed robbery is wrong, and a bad choice. But if you cant get a job what seems so obvious to us as a bad choice can be appealing to others. No one that spends (wastes) time on internet fantasy football message boards can honestly say they are in that situation and explain that feeling of hopelessness to others. IMO cavalierly dismissing them is also wrong and does nothing to change the endemic problem of maintaining a permanent underclass.

[Perchoutofwater]

The point I offer is that without proper education to help these people learn the differences between these decisons, it is a self-fulfilling circle of poverty. Better options for food that dont involve fast food. In fact, I encoiurage you to look up the problem of "food deserts" in urban areas that prevent poor people from having access to healthier food choices. I was seriously asking if schools still teaach Home Ec and the food pyramid, (my kids are too little) because I see that as well as Gym class being important to combat childhood obesity.

 

Yourlink between the two is valid, but to me the problem of education and oipportunity continue to be paramount. If parents are not taught skills of what proper food is for kids/themselves or how to cook, or how to balance a checkbook properly then how can they teach those things to their kids? This is a circular argument . . .

 

Kids are still taught the food pyramid though it has gone through some minor changes since we were in school. My daughters learned about the food pyramid in 2nd grade. They are still teaching Home Ec that is a mandatory class for a semester in middle school and as an elective in high school. Maybe schools should spend more time teaching about this type of stuff and life skills rather than political agendas. I guess protein and dietary fiber mmm, mmm, mmm! doesn't have the same ring to it as Barack Hussein Obama mmm, mmm, mmm! And it surely isn't as important as learning that the oceans may be 2" higher 100 years from now.

[bpwallace49]

Kids are still taught the food pyramid though it has gone through some minor changes since we were in school. My daughters learned about the food pyramid in 2nd grade. They are still teaching Home Ec that is a mandatory class for a semester in middle school and as an elective in high school. Maybe schools should spend more time teaching about this type of stuff and life skills rather than political agendas. I guess protein and dietary fiber mmm, mmm, mmm! doesn't have the same ring to it as Barack Hussein Obama mmm, mmm, mmm! And it surely isn't as important as learning that the oceans may be 2" higher 100 years from now.

 

Now you are just being stupid. Obama has nothing to do with the discussion here that "should" transcend partisan politics. I should know better from you . . .

 

Life skills can and SHOULD be taught more in schools as mandatory classes to prepare kids for life in general. It would help the people that dont get to go to college learn how to make a budget and cook a meal and it would help the college bound kids to not sign up for the first predatory credit card offer that gives you a free t-shirt in front of the bookstore. The whole focus of our education should be about preparing kids not only how to take a test and go to college, but how to prepare for life outside of schools and how to be a responsible, contributing citizen.

[Perchoutofwater]

Now you are just being stupid. Obama has nothing to do with the discussion here that "should" transcend partisan politics. I should know better from you . . .

 

It was a joke, or said half jokingly. I do think schools are too political though regardless of who is in office. The way they handle global warming is a prime example. They teach it as all fact rather than theory, and that man is the primary cause of it.

[untateve]

And you seem to forget most everyone on the right would like to abolish the income tax, or at the very least get rid of all deductions and go to a flat tax, either of which would eliminate the vast majority of tax cheating. It would also do away with a great deal of the political favors everyone seems to complain about but do nothing to stop.

 

Are republicans typically on the right? To be honest, that is my understanding but perhaps I am wrong. I can only assume that "almost everyone on the right" decided that they would "like to abolish the income tax, or at the very least get rid of all deductions and go to a flat tax" sometime after 2006, given that from 2000-2006 the republicans owned the white house and congress. I'll be honest, I did not follow this very closely and perhaps missed the republican efforts enact this legislation.