Pope Flick Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 We were fighting in Europe for Europe's survival. Hitler wasn't gonna cross the Atlantic when he couldn't broach the English Channel. It just furthers my point - fedgov almost never gives won power back, unless keeping it is untenable and costs votes. But they aren't talking about fixing anything now, are they? They're talking about taking it over. No - you're talking as if in early 1942 everything that would lead to victory was a given. You DO realize they weren't in possession of a crystal ball, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Rubbish. Are you arguing that unfettered capitalism brought healthcare to its current state? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Are you arguing that unfettered capitalism brought healthcare to its current state? In many ways, yes. The fundamental problem with health care is the middlemen, adding nothing and gaining everything. That said, the rules are all in their favor and the rules were set by the government but what do you expect when the government is bought and paid for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 In many ways, yes. The fundamental problem with health care is the middlemen, adding nothing and gaining everything. That said, the rules are all in their favor and the rules were set by the government but what do you expect when the government is bought and paid for? the government is always bought and paid for. they always represent some factional interest. which is why some of us say they shouldn't have as much power to determine winners and losers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 the government is always bought and paid for. they always represent some factional interest. which is why some of us say they shouldn't have as much power to determine winners and losers. However, a public option would be direct from government to people who want it so where's the factional interest in this case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Are you arguing that unfettered capitalism brought healthcare to its current state? Lawyers were a big part. Worthless lawyers with nothing to do but threaten lawsuit after lawsuit until companies are so handcuffed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 adding nothing and gaining everything. Dont yah just love that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wirehairman Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 In many ways, yes. The fundamental problem with health care is the middlemen, adding nothing and gaining everything. That said, the rules are all in their favor and the rules were set by the government but what do you expect when the government is bought and paid for? Ursa, can you please give me some clarification on this? You think the fundamental problem with health care is the insurance companine (or at least that is how I understand your statement) but are a proponent of government mandated health insurance? If I have not misread your posts, . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 However, a public option would be direct from government to people who want it so where's the factional interest in this case? Votes and power, baby. If they control your health, stands to reason they control you, no? Nearly this whole mess is caused by fedgov stepping in during WWII and forbidding companies to compete for workers on price, so they added bennies (health insurance namely). Now perhaps you can make the case that was justified by the war, that's neither here nor there though. By 1946 if the tax laws were adjusted to allow individuals to deduct the cost of HC just like businesses do now, we wouldn't have near the mess. Get rid of the laws against selling across state lines and that gets rid of a lot more. Here's something that I don't hear people in favor of fedgov HC addressing, and that's cost. The latest from the CBO indicates the cost is going UP, not down. If that's the case, why in the wide wide world of sports is this happening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Get rid of the laws against selling across state lines and that gets rid of a lot more this would help a bunch but guess who does not want it to happen....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 this would help a bunch but guess who does not want it to happen....... Probably the insurance companies. Which obamessiah and his minions are going to break! Oh wait... From one of the best political works of all time: "I quit when medicine was placed under State control, some years ago," said Dr. Hendricks. "Do you know what it takes to perform a brain operation? Do you know the kind of skill it demands, and the years of passionate, merciless, excruciating devotion that go to acquire that skill? That was what I would not place at the disposal of men whose sole qualification to rule me was their capacity to spout the fraudulent generalities that got them elected to the privilege of enforcing their wishes at the point of a gun. I would not let them dictate the purpose for which my years of study had been spent, or the conditions of my work, or my choice of patients, or the amount of my reward. I observed that in all the discussions that preceded the enslavement of medicine, men discussed everything - except the desires of the doctors. Men considered only the 'welfare' of the patients, with no thought for those who were to provide it. That a doctor should have any right, desire or choice in the matter was regarded as irrelevant selfishness; his is not to choose, they said, only 'to serve.' That a man who's willing to work under compulsion is too dangerous a brute to entrust with a job in the stockyards - never occurred to those who proposed to help the sick by making life impossible for the healthy. I have often wondered at the smugness with which people assert their right to enslave me, to control my work, to force my will, to violate my conscience, to stifle my mind - yet what is it that they expect to depend on, when they lie on an operating table under my hands? Their moral code has taught them to believe that it is safe to rely on the virtue of their victims. Well, that is the virtue I have withdrawn. Let them discover the kind of doctors that their system will now produce. Let them discover, in their operating rooms and hospital wards, that it is not safe to place their lives in the hands of a man whose life they have throttled. It is not safe, if he is the sort of a man who resents it - and still less safe, if he is the sort who doesn't."Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 take a look at the big insurance companies' stock prices today. yea, obama really put them in their places. lol. what a chump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) Probably the insurance companies. Which obamessiah and his minions are going to break! Oh wait... From one of the best political works of all time: Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged That's all well and good, but where's the part about that doctor getting kickbacks from Big P H A R M A for over-prescribing meds? Once again, theory runs into reality. edited for filter... Edited December 21, 2009 by Pope Flick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Here's something that I don't hear people in favor of fedgov HC addressing, and that's cost. The latest from the CBO indicates the cost is going UP, not down. If that's the case, why in the wide wide world of sports is this happening? :crickets: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 :crickets: The first is how much people would pay in health insurance premiums. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) studied the health care bill proposed by Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., and concluded that if passed, most people would see a very modest decrease in premiums by 2016 (compared to what they would pay under the current system). How modest? Best-case scenario - for those in group plans with large companies - about 3 percent better. For a small percentage of people (less than 8 percent of the insured) who would buy insurance on the individual market, and who wouldn't be eligible for federal subsidies, they might actually pay 10 to 13 percent more, though with new federal minimum standards, they'd also be getting more insurance coverage as well. The second way to look at cost is its effect on the national deficit. And here again, the CBO has weighed in on the Reid plan. The CBO concluded that while the plan would be very expensive, the bill is also more than paid for with new taxes and plans to reduce health care spending over time. The net effect, according to the CBO, is that over 10 years, the plan would end up reducing the national deficit by $130 billion. Which brings us to a third way to look at cost, whether the plan would lower the rate of health care inflation over the long term. Republicans are correct when they say that based on the CMS report, health care spending would increase by $234 billion over the next 10 years. But remember, that's with a plan that is estimated to cover an additional 33 million people. So spending would increase 0.7 percent while adding coverage to roughly 10 percent of the population. In his report, Foster said numerous studies have demonstrated that people with health insurance use more health services than people without insurance. So we'll be spending more over the next 10 years, even more than if we didn't pass the bill, according to the CMS report. But let's talk a minute about the "rate of growth" of health care spending. That's what Obama is talking about when he says he wants to "bend the cost curve." According to the projections in the CMS report, the rate of growth in national health care expenditures will spike a bit in the middle years of the health reform plan. That's when the provisions that result in 33 million more people getting health insurance will kick in. But in the later years of the 10-year projections, the rate of growth rises slower than under current law (albeit only slightly: in 2019, for example, it's the difference between rising at a clip of 6.9 percent under the proposed plan as opposed to 7.2 percent under current law). . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 So premiums go down but taxes go up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Seriously though. How are we going to add 30 million people to health care who now can't afford it plus not turn anyone down for pre-existing conditions and this will not cost me anymore than I am currently paying? Does anyone really know how this is going to happen? If some of it is cutting out waste in the system why do we need a whole new health care bill to start cutting waste now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 So premiums go down but taxes go up? I don't think any of it is all that black and white. Apparently the overall growth of health care costs will go down and have a positive impact in reducing the national debt over time. But a lot of the costs will be offset by the fact we are providing health care for more people. Granted these are non-biased projections that will change overtime; but my guess is that costs end up being somewhere in the middle of the flower and chocolate scenarios the dems are claiming and the Have to agree here end of times fear pumping from the Repubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I don't think any of it is all that black and white. Apparently the overall growth of health care costs will go down and have a positive impact in reducing the national debt over time. But a lot of the costs will be offset by the fact we are providing health care for more people. Granted these are non-biased projections that will change overtime; but my guess is that costs end up being somewhere in the middle of the flower and chocolate scenarios the dems are claiming and the Have to agree here end of times fear pumping from the Repubs. So help me out here. Is anyone here on this site for this bill? Without ripping on Obama or Bush can someone explain to me how this bill actually effects me? Single, healthy male soon to be 40 years old. Will what I pay for health care (not just my premium - include any additional taxes) go up or down? I am not taking sides here - I have no idea what to expect and when I should be expecting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I'll say this, Mr. Stevens understands his target audience very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mucca Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 So help me out here. Is anyone here on this site for this bill? Without ripping on Obama or Bush can someone explain to me how this bill actually effects me? Single, healthy male soon to be 40 years old. Will what I pay for health care (not just my premium - include any additional taxes) go up or down? I am not taking sides here - I have no idea what to expect and when I should be expecting it. It's a secret, you will find out after it passes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Without ripping on Obama or Bush can someone explain to me how this bill actually effects me? Single, healthy male soon to be 40 years old. Will what I pay for health care (not just my premium - include any additional taxes) go up or down? I am not taking sides here - I have no idea what to expect and when I should be expecting it. Shouldn't affect you at all if you're insured via your company like most people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I'll say this, Mr. Stevens understands his target audience very well. What, the folks that wrote this? Yeah, they say the south is slow and will rise again. With these people, God I hope not. Can't do this, can't do that, can't do what you know you're sposed to do, can't fight city hall much less this group of brainiacs that sit and make a haul, can't get to the budget cause it's 3 trillion deficit so every time you and me spends a penny, we're being forced to commit a crime. Can't go out and correct what's wrong cause we'll go to jail, these folks are pulling "legal crimes". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Shouldn't affect you at all if you're insured via your company like most people. Won't it indirectly? I would assume if the costs go down to my employer then my portion will go down and vice versa. So will costs go down to my employer? We are a small company with about 50 employees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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