Kid Cid Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 and dismissing the validity of ALL religion including Christianity is open-minded Looking at available evidence and coming to the conclusion that 1) Religion's role in the history of mankind has been more about the suppression of individual thought and action, a crucible for intolerance, and a perpetuation of power via the manipulation of the masses than it has been about the nurturing of the individual spirit and 2) there is a complete and utter lack of any foundation for the postulate that any god has existed at any point in the recorded history of humans is not being close minded. It is however, applying logical thought and reasoning to a question that is usually devoid of logical thought and reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeR Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 there's a helluva lot more to rob bell's argument than "hell doesn't exist". Actually I don't think he's saying that at all. I think he's just saying maybe nobody is banned there for all eternity like most traditional Christian denominations teach to one degree or other. And this is something I've long considered as well. A loving God banishing the children he loves to eternal torment/etc because they sinned/were too stupid to "get" something that's largely beyond their comprehension anyway? Who knows, but always sounded like pretty shaky logic to me. I would also encourage some of the people who bash and mock christianity to check out the book themselves.Dude get w/the 21st century. Being Christian or even tolerating them is so yesterday. It's hip to be atheist (or at least agnostic) and sneer and spit at Christianity/theists every chance you get PS the irony of close-minded atheists ranting about Christianity/religion being so close-minded was also not lost on me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Looking at available evidence and coming to the conclusion that 1) Religion's role in the history of mankind has been more about the suppression of individual thought and action, a crucible for intolerance, and a perpetuation of power via the manipulation of the masses than it has been about the nurturing of the individual spirit and 2) there is a complete and utter lack of any foundation for the postulate that any god has existed at any point in the recorded history of humans is not being close minded. It is however, applying logical thought and reasoning to a question that is usually devoid of logical thought and reasoning. ding, ding, ding, ding..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Looking at available evidence and coming to the conclusion that 1) Religion's role in the history of mankind has been more about the suppression of individual thought and action, a crucible for intolerance, and a perpetuation of power via the manipulation of the masses than it has been about the nurturing of the individual spirit and 2) there is a complete and utter lack of any foundation for the postulate that any god has existed at any point in the recorded history of humans is not being close minded. It is however, applying logical thought and reasoning to a question that is usually devoid of logical thought and reasoning. oh ok, I get it. as you define it, "open-minded" means agreeing with you. gotcha. well that's certainly very constructive and "tolerant". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 (edited) Dude get w/the 21st century. Being Christian or even tolerating them is so yesterday. It's hip to be atheist (or at least agnostic) and sneer and spit at Christianity/theists every chance you get PS the irony of close-minded atheists ranting about Christianity/religion being so close-minded was also not lost on me oh ok, I get it. as you define it, "open-minded" means agreeing with you. gotcha. well that's certainly very constructive and "tolerant". The fundamental difference is that atheists don't actually claim to know exactly how everything went down, they're just not ready to believe the very specific stories that religions want us to believe. You must admit that, from the outside, it does look a bit fishy when a lot of people are not only claiming that this is all because of god, but very specific and conflicting stories related to different gods and many would go so far as to suggest that if you believe in the wrong god, that you're going to hell. See, atheists don't threaten you with any bad things that will happen to you if you don't believe in whatever non-religious theories that are suggested to explain things. The church does. Not more progressive branches of the church, mind you, but it's also not limited to tiny fringes of it either. Honestly, the odds are very stacked against you. You not only need to be religious, but you need to choose the right one. That means, all the non-believers are going to be no worse off than nearly all the believers. And it is the arrogant certitude of those who claim to know the exact religious story that is correct that is off-putting and very much not anywhere near as like the resistance to buy into these stories as you guys want to make it. So, on one hand, you have various groups of people who are saying, "This is exactly how it happened. God did this, then god did that and then this or that happened." On the other hand, you have people saying, "I believe it is simply science. I'm not going to bother looking into the specifics, nor am I going to get on a soap-box and try to make people agree with me about any specifics. I'm good with not actually understanding how we got here and I'm certainly not going to bother coming up with some layered system of morals and actions that need to be based on pretending that I know what I don't." So, at the risk of putting words into Jim's mouth here, I don't believe he's insisting anyone believe his specific theory about anything, rather that he refuses to believe any specific religious rationale. And there's a huge, huge difference. Edited March 29, 2011 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 The fundamental difference is that atheists don't actually claim to know exactly how everything went down really? that's the fundamental difference? because as I see it, if anything, that's a difference that goes in the opposite direction. I see more certainty from atheists as to knowing "exactly how everything went down", and in faith circles I see a lot more celebration of mystery and ineffability. faith, by its definition, acknowledges that which we cannot see and cannot know. I certainly also see a lot of false certainty and bravado among religious zealots of many stripes -- I would submit that those zealots are doing it all wrong. but I see no less false certainty and bravado among those who tend to take it upon themselves to bash and mock religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 really? that's the fundamental difference? because as I see it, if anything, that's a difference that goes in the opposite direction. I see more certainty from atheists as to knowing "exactly how everything went down", and in faith circles I see a lot more celebration of mystery and ineffability. faith, by its definition, acknowledges that which we cannot see and cannot know. I certainly also see a lot of false certainty and bravado among religious zealots of many stripes -- I would submit that those zealots are doing it all wrong. but I see no less false certainty and bravado among those who tend to take it upon themselves to bash and mock religion. Nearly every non-religious person I know and commiserate with do not claim to know exactly how we all came to be. Rather, they're simply put-off by some dude spout that it was all a bunch of magic. They don't believe in pulling a rabbit from a hat and they don't believe in making the earth in seven days. I honestly don't know a single atheist who claims to understand, specifically, any scientific theories that explain nearly all the things that religions very plainly explain as basically fact. The feeling is that they have faith that there is a scientific answer. A faith of a different form, but far less dogmatic. I don't actually count myself among those ranks. I actually would not be all that surprised to learn that a higher being had a hand in all of this. No more so than I would be to learn that it is all very pedestrian and chemically based. Where I diverge from religion is that I'm pretty sure that, even if there was a higher force involved, they're big enough to not give two poops about whether or not I pray to them. That they'd likely rather I just go ahead and make the best of my life. Assuming they even have any idea at all that I'm here or what I actually am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 oh ok, I get it. as you define it, "open-minded" means agreeing with you. gotcha. well that's certainly very constructive and "tolerant". No, it means that while I am open to the concept of there being some sort of supernatural being in charge of all this, I have yet to meet the person that can meet the burden of proof that shows me there is. Simply put, I need more than faith. I would not accept on faith that hitting my hand with a hammer will not hurt, why should this be any different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) I just try and get through each day doing the best I can according to what I think is right vs. wrong. If that's not good enough, so be it. Enjoy hell. Hopefully they'll at least serve some ice cold beverages. Sometimes I think about the people that would be in heaven if they are right and I am wrong. I usually conclude I would rather not spend eternity with them anyways. Edited March 31, 2011 by Clubfoothead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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