bunso1012

4 point or 6 points per passing touchdown?

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6 used to be very uncommon, we've used it since our league started and we prefer it. 

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We have a debate about this every season. No so much about the preference, but about the impact it has on drafting QBs. Either way, I've done both and I enjoy the 6 point passing TDs. 

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Depending on your league setup. I'm in several leagues where passing tds are 6pts. and the guys seem to prefer that. It can have an impact on your scoring as the QBs might tend to score the most points. Those leagues I'm in with 6pt pass tds surely changed the draft. Usually it would be rbs & wrs going in the first couple of rounds with a few tes, then the QBs would start to.come off the board late 3rd and 4th rounds with 4 pt. pass tds. Now with 6pts for QBs I've seen them.get drafted 2nd round, usually Mahomes and Allen with Murray and.the others shortly after. It does change the way players are prioritized. Still I prefer 6pts. for QBs.

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9 minutes ago, LordOpie said:

mathematically, i don't think this is valid

I think the size of the league matters also. In my 12 team, 6pt passing TDs, league I don't see a difference. In my 16 team league, the QBs starting going in the 2nd round. 

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I am actually trying to move my leagues to 5 points passing TDs.   6 tends to allow bad QBs too much opportunity to put up points (too many in the top 32 scorers) and 4 doesn't make them valuable enough (in dynasty leagues) imo

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Rules AND size of a league does matter in ranking and how players are drafted. This is one of the reasons the rankings are different for PPR vs standard. Now, people might have different views on how big the impact is, but it still makes a difference. For example, years ago in a BoTH league, interceptions didn't lose points. You know who moves up in a ranking like that? Jameis Winston. 

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7 minutes ago, LordOpie said:

It matters less than you think. It's about value over replacement.

ceteris paribus... 4 vs 6 isn't statistically significant enough to change your drafting strategy.

That's why I also added size of the league. I agree the 2 points isn't that big of a deal, but in a 16 team league where everyone is trying to get 2 quality QBs it can impact the draft. If they believe it's real, it's real in its consequences. But this debate happens every year with minimal change in perspective. :lol:

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16 minutes ago, Shaft said:

That's why I also added size of the league. I agree the 2 points isn't that big of a deal, but in a 16 team league where everyone is trying to get 2 quality QBs it can impact the draft. If they believe it's real, it's real in its consequences. But this debate happens every year with minimal change in perspective. :lol:

I agree,

I really hate seeing leagues (and I'm in 1) where in a 12 team league the top 14 scoring players last season were all quarterbacks 

 

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3 minutes ago, LordOpie said:

Agreed. If your mates think it's real...

I like getting to know my league mates and what's important to them. Helps me leverage in trades :D

Trust me I know! I have this league mate who rejects all RB trades. I have to offer this man CMC just to get a WR3! :rolleyes:

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My Dynasty leagues are 4 pts.  My redraft leagues are 6 pts. If it was up to me, I would have it 6 pts in all leagues. I don't understand why you give every other position 6 pts for a TD, but downgrade the QB to 4 pts. 

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17 hours ago, LordOpie said:

mathematically, i don't think this is valid

 

I don't see any math, I see somebody talking about leagues they play in, and the impact of 4 or 6 point passing TDs on where QBs are drafted. Doesn't mean those drafting made wise decisions, but that is where those top QBs are going, so if you want one (in those leagues) you need plan accordingly. 

 

I don't disagree with those who say the QB value does not change with 4 or 6 points passing, but the people playing in leagues don't always buy into or follow those theories, emotions and other human factors are involved. 

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2 hours ago, zing said:

My Dynasty leagues are 4 pts.  My redraft leagues are 6 pts. If it was up to me, I would have it 6 pts in all leagues. I don't understand why you give every other position 6 pts for a TD, but downgrade the QB to 4 pts. 

 

Yep, I always wondered why the receiver gets the full 6 but the QB only gets 4 (or in some cases I've seen 3 and thought maybe they were splitting the 6 point between passer and receiver).  I don't care if the top 20 scores in my league or QBs, they are the most important position in the offense, a real NFL team blows if they don't have a decent QB, why should that be different for a fantasy football team. 

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20 hours ago, LordOpie said:

I don't think league size is relevant either. I think that's an emotional response by league mates.

Unless you can play qb in the flex, you can only compare qbs to qbs and value comparison between them

I agree with all your points on this. The 4pts. for passing TDs makes the most sense , if its 6 it over values the QB. 

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@darin3 Thanks for the call out

 

@LordOpie and @Shaft  -- You're both right.

 

In a vacuum, 4 vs 6 pt passing TDs makes a minimal difference.

 

League size matters to an extent - I'd say that going to 16 teams increases QB value a bit as it changes the baseline for startable QBs, slightly increasing the value of the upper QBs, however, this might be a moot point as the other positions also see an increase in value. The real key is that at 16 teams, there's forced positional scarcity at the QB position (each NFL team only has one, and not all are settled), and that is a much bigger driver in QBs being drafted early.

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7 minutes ago, LordOpie said:

thank you, but to be clear, I'm not saying 6 its over-values the QB, I'm saying it doesn't make a statically significant difference

unless you can put the qb in flex, you cannot compare qb to other positions, but only to other qbs...

you're almost always better off drafting wr/rb early over qb 

 

That assumes a fairly standard scoring system (1 per 10 yards rush/rec, 1 per 20/25 passing) and a fairly standard lineup - 1 QB, 2-3 RB, 2-4 WR, 1 TE, no superflex

 

With all of the thousands of variations, it's important to note that, as lineup rules have a bigger impact on value than small tweaks (superflex can easily make it so that 10-12 QBs go in the first 2 rounds of a typical 12 team league), or scoring rules that make the game essentially whose QB scores more (have seen point per 10 yards passing and point per completion), essentially rules set up that a typical QB will score more than the rest of the lineup combined.

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23 hours ago, LordOpie said:

I don't think league size is relevant either. I think that's an emotional response by league mates.

Unless you can play qb in the flex, you can only compare qbs to qbs and value comparison between them

 There's the reason for disagreement. You are comparing QBs to QBs. Maybe if you changed the argument to Kickers being Kickers that would apply. More points for passing TDs would obviously make the QB more important in relationship to other positions.

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Most of my leagues score four points for passing TDs. We also score Six for passing TDs over 50 yards. Some leagues take points away for Ints. One of my leagues does that with 1 point per Int. (But RBs, WRs, and TEs also get 10 points for TDs over 50 yards.)

 

I think one league scored 6 pts for Passing TDs and -2 for Ints many years ago.

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4 hours ago, LordOpie said:

unless you can put the qb in flex, you cannot compare qb to other positions, but only to other qbs...

 

Well, to be fair, once you compare QBs to each other to calculate their value, you need to compare that to the values calculated by comparing RBs to the other RBs and WRs to WRs and TEs to TEs and so on. Then you try build the team that maximizes that value. Only time you just look at the points scored side of it and not the positional value is when looking at the flex. In essence, you calculate two values for each player - their positional value and their flex value.

 

1 hour ago, MikesVikes said:

 There's the reason for disagreement. You are comparing QBs to QBs. Maybe if you changed the argument to Kickers being Kickers that would apply. More points for passing TDs would obviously make the QB more important in relationship to other positions.

 

This is also true, but the spread of passing TDs is usually not that great that the overall affect on QB value is usually not very significant. Outside of Rodgers with 48 TDs last year, the next 17 QBs were within 16 TDs of each other (2 PPG difference by changing from 4 pt pass TDs to 6 pt). In 2019, the top 23 QBs were in this range, in 2018 it was the top 14 (excluding Mahomes).

 

Obviously using the 2 PPG metric may be more or less significant depending on your individual leagues setup (scoring system and lineup), and the only way to tell how significant is to play around with calculating values under various scoring systems to see how significant/insignificant the effect is for your particular league

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17 hours ago, LordOpie said:

this.

but to clarify, it's based on drop off / differential value from qb1 to qb2 vs rb1 to rb2, etc. You cannot compare the points a qb1 gets directly to what a rb1 gets. For anyone who disagrees with me, when was the last time the entire first (or even a significant portion) of the first round of a draft was just/mostly qb?

going full circle to the op... 4 vs 6 does not create enough of a significant difference.

 

 

I'll agree with half of this.   The lack of positional scarcity limits early drafting of QBs.   If leagues also adopted other metrics such as points per completion and loss of points for incomplete passes this would further increase the value of QBs.   

But an extra 4 points in a game because your QB had 2 more td passes than your opponents can have a huge effect on QB scoring, and more importantly if your ff team wins.

 for example qb1 to qb16 Allen 447 to stafford's 288. (In 6 pt QBs) That's 10 points per game that a team has to make up just by having a lesser qb1 (in a 16 team league)

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2 hours ago, millworkguy said:

I'll agree with half of this.   The lack of positional scarcity limits early drafting of QBs.   If leagues also adopted other metrics such as points per completion and loss of points for incomplete passes this would further increase the value of QBs.   

But an extra 4 points in a game because your QB had 2 more td passes than your opponents can have a huge effect on QB scoring, and more importantly if your ff team wins.

 for example qb1 to qb16 Allen 447 to stafford's 288. (In 6 pt QBs) That's 10 points per game that a team has to make up just by having a lesser qb1 (in a 16 team league)

 

1 hour ago, LordOpie said:

This is why accurate number crunching, statistical analysis, proper valuation is so important.

Allen only scored 11 more passing tds than Stafford, ceteris parabus, that's 1.375 points per game... Not 10 points.

 

Exactly, both of you illustrate that the difference from 4 to 6 points is not that big in most cases. With the info provided, it is impossible to know if the 10 PPG difference between QB1 and 16 in @millworkguy scenario is significant or not, as that depends on the scoring system and lineup rules and the values of the other positions. If the spread in scoring for RBs is only say 6 PPG between RB1 and RB20, then yes, QBs have quite a bit more value, but if the spread is say 14 PPG, and the top 12 RBs will be taken in the first 2 rounds whereas the QB16 won't be taken until end of round 10 or 11, then it is fairly clear that QBs are less valuable at least early on, whereas RBs are way more valuable given the steeper drop in value at the position.

 

This calculation is of course different for each league as scoring/lineup rules change, and it needs to be done for each position.

 

Now, this thread isn't about calculating value overall, it was about one particular metric, and in most cases (note I say most, not all), all else being equal, the difference of 4pt passing TDs and 6 pt passing TDs is fairly negligible on positional values, the greater affect is on individual player valuation within the QB position, as this change slightly devalues running QBs.

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3 hours ago, LordOpie said:

This is why accurate number crunching, statistical analysis, proper valuation is so important.

Allen only scored 11 more passing tds than Stafford, ceteris parabus, that's 1.375 points per game... Not 10 points.

Yes, but combined with his additional passing yards ( about 500) additional rushing yards (about 300) and 8 more rushing touchdowns then Stafford and you have 2 quarterbacks who finished in 6 point TDs, 160 points apart at the end of the season and that's 10 points per game.

 

And I wasn't saying 6 pt TDs make 160 points of difference, you where talking about the drop off and your earlier post about not drafting QBs earlier. 

Edited by millworkguy

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