Jon Gruden

[rajncajn 1,341]

2 hours ago, millworkguy said:

 

I never said you couldn't be racist,  I said you don't have the right to be racist,  as you said your words are not protected and can be used against you for saying them and are illegal if directed at someone or promote violence. 

 

  Being a racist doesn't give you protection from your actions or words, 

 

 The post I replied to asked "who decides what things we say should be defended" and previously wrote he would stand up and protect their right to be racist (in the form of an email that attacked a specific individual).

 

 My reply was that that there was no "rights" to protect here

You keep saying that you don't have the right to be racist. Yes,  you do. You have the right to be whatever you want to be so long as you do not violate someone else's rights. Being racist does not inherently infringe upon someone else's rights unless you act upon it.

[stevegrab 1,431]

25 minutes ago, rajncajn said:

You keep saying that you don't have the right to be racist. Yes,  you do. You have the right to be whatever you want to be so long as you do not violate someone else's rights. Being racist does not inherently infringe upon someone else's rights unless you act upon it.

 

cue the "oh so you're defending people's rights to be a racist...." posts

 

This whole thing has gone into the toilet. 

[Bier Meister 360]

1 hour ago, rajncajn said:

You keep saying that you don't have the right to be racist. Yes,  you do. You have the right to be whatever you want to be so long as you do not violate someone else's rights. Being racist does not inherently infringe upon someone else's rights unless you act upon it.

i love you man, but what is the end game for being racist? What are the means to that end?

 

 

[buddahj 386]

Seems like some of you have never been on the receiving end of hate speech and it shows. Because in my personal experience, it doesn't stop with just the speech it turns into violence. 

[rajncajn 1,341]

50 minutes ago, Bier Meister said:

i love you man, but what is the end game for being racist? What are the means to that end?

I don't like racism,  hate and bigotry any less than any of you do. I wish that it was eradicated completely. The question is,  who defines hate and bigotry? If I'm catholic and my faith drives me to fight against abortion. What's to say that someone wouldn't define my fight as hate and bigotry against women? If I'm a black player who kneels for the anthem,  who gets to define whether what he is doing is wrong or not?

 

I will fight against bigotry and hate wherever I see it,  but I will also not tell someone that they are not allowed to believe or be something simply because I don't agree with it or it hurts me emotionally. You can't have it both ways. Either all of us are free to express ourselves or none of us are. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by rajncajn

[rajncajn 1,341]

19 minutes ago, buddahj said:

Seems like some of you have never been on the receiving end of hate speech and it shows. Because in my personal experience, it doesn't stop with just the speech it turns into violence. 

If I stand up and rally against abortion,  would you or someone consider that hate speech? If I fought to stop legislation allowing incest or pedophilia, would you call that hate speech?

[Shaft 1,414]

At the clear risk of being hypocritical because I started a thread saying we just need to focus on football, I will put my 2 cents here. 

 

As I said earlier, the rights vs discrimination will be an ongoing debate that will never end. It has gotten to the point of do you have the right to discriminate? Most would say no, but some court decisions have made this VERY murky. For example, just review Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission. Here the Supreme Court sided with the bakery for not making a cake for a gay couple. Ironically, a few years later that same bakery was involved in a case with a trans woman who was refused service. In this case the state sided on the side of the of the customer, but this could make its way to the Supreme court also. My point is that the debate here is continually happening in our court system. Where is the line drawn?

[Bobby Brown 958]

4 minutes ago, Shaft said:

Where is the line drawn?

Jon Gruden!

 

[Shaft 1,414]

Just now, Bobby Brown said:

Jon Gruden!

 

[Bobby Brown 958]

11 hours ago, Shaft said:

Lol.  These giant memes seal the deal.

[League_Champion 2,817]

19 hours ago, rajncajn said:

If I stand up and rally against abortion,  would you or someone consider that hate speech? If I fought to stop legislation allowing incest or pedophilia, would you call that hate speech?

 

Well, they shut that down fast didn't they? 

[rajncajn 1,341]

32 minutes ago, League_Champion said:

Well, they shut that down fast didn't they? 

Nobody shut anything down. I get where they're coming from and I would agree. The problem is that it all depends on who gets to decide what's right and what's wrong. If this were a communist country then we might be put in prison for speaking out about LGBTQ rights or any rights for that matter. If we were in Afghanistan we'd be killed. The point is,  we live in a free society and we all have the right to express ourselves however we see fit. That doesn't mean that society isn't free to judge us, shun us, ostracize us or cast us out. But once you take away that freedom of expression, you open a door that's very hard to close.

[League_Champion 2,817]

3 minutes ago, rajncajn said:

Nobody shut anything down. I get where they're coming from and I would agree. The problem is that it all depends on who gets to decide what's right and what's wrong. If this were a communist country then we might be put in prison for speaking out about LGBTQ rights or any rights for that matter. If we were in Afghanistan we'd be killed. The point is,  we live in a free society and we all have the right to express ourselves however we see fit. That doesn't mean that society isn't free to judge us, shun us, ostracize us or cast us out. But once you take away that freedom of expression, you open a door that's very hard to close.

 

You have freedom of speech until someone disagrees with you. 

 

[stevegrab 1,431]

1 minute ago, League_Champion said:

 

You have freedom of speech until someone disagrees with you. 

 

 

Nope, they have their freedom of speech to express their disagreement. NOBODY, no single individual or group in this country gets to decide what we are free to say. Pretty sure the Nazis and KKK can still hold rallies and express themselves, but they'll draw a counter protest in most cases. The point about defending one's right to express themselves even if I disagree with what you say is a part of our free society, one where we are free to express our views. Saying that their rights should not be defended because they are racists, bigots etc. is taking a big step on the slippery slope. 

 

Also "freedom of speech" is usually about government trying to control your speech, or punishing you for what you say. Society has no requirement to allow people to express themselves without being punished, but we should still feel strongly that people be allowed to express themselves, or we're no better than a communist or other restrictive society. 

[League_Champion 2,817]

15 minutes ago, stevegrab said:

Nope, they have their freedom of speech to express their disagreement.

 

Until you're "cancelled". 

[rajncajn 1,341]

17 minutes ago, League_Champion said:

 

Until you're "cancelled". 

For the things Gruden was saying,  I don't have any issue with him being "cancelled."

[League_Champion 2,817]

Just now, rajncajn said:

For the things Gruden was saying,  I don't have any issue with him being "cancelled."

 

As he should be. The problem is that people are being cancelled for much less. Like voting for a certain Presidential candidate. 

[Bobby Brown 958]

5 hours ago, League_Champion said:

 

You have freedom of speech until someone disagrees with you. 

 

I'm so old, I remember a time when right wingers weren't constantly whining about being victims of their own imagination.

[Zooty 831]

6 hours ago, League_Champion said:

 

As he should be. The problem is that people are being cancelled for much less. Like voting for a certain Presidential candidate. 

 

Well when he's a misogynistic,  bigot,  you'll get canceled 

[League_Champion 2,817]

3 minutes ago, Zooty said:

 

Well when he's a misogynistic,  bigot,  you'll get canceled 

 

It's amazing how just mentioning his name gets people crazy. Meanwhile we have supply chain issues, inflation, a border crisis, a housing crisis, fuel shortages, empty shelves at grocery stores but nothing, crickets. Because he's not a meanie, go figure.