CaptainHook Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 You are cracking me up with your use of "indefinitely". How many time have we heard that a player is out indefinitely after an injury? It doesn't mean he will never play again, LOL! It means it is undetermined how long he will be out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 guys, its not if they instigated it... its that the pacers reacted. Like it or not, as an athlete there are things you can not do. You're arguing who was wrong or right, which is totally moot... Its how they reacted. The lifetime ban is what I would like to see. I dont think there will be a lifetime ban. I think the rest of this season, and possibley some of next season. I live in Dallas, im in no way a pistons fan, there is no bias here... Cant say the same for Hook... just wanted to clear that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turf Boy Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Turf,how many men would be laying on a table, pretty much asking for something to be thrown at him? Detroit is a rowdy place... The fan was wrong, yes, but laying there, after a stupid foul, when the game was over... Rubbing a loss in the fans face is, in itself, instigating the whole situation. 565743[/snapback] First, I'm not an Artest fan. I really don't care for his act. That said, I think he showed tremendous restraint until he was beaned. I think by laying down by Reggie he was making sure he didn't do something he'd regret on the court. I don't think him laying down gave fans a green light to start throwing things. Nobody's talking about Ben Wallace provoking the whole thing by not just heading to the bench. He kept the whole thing going way too long & probably got the fans more riled up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) The lifetime ban is what I would like to see. I dont think there will be a lifetime ban. I think the rest of this season, and possibley some of next season. 565751[/snapback] no way will that happen. Edited November 20, 2004 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 and you're right. I am placing blame on Artest... I place blame on Artest, Jackson, O'Neil, the fans that instigated and threw things... Instead of attacking what im saying, realize that, as you guys are all pro player, i am not pro fan, i am seeing it from the middle... Everyone was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Ben Wallace threw a towel at Artest before the fan threw anything. That means Wallace was "asking" for the fans to do it too. Thus, he too deserves a lifetime ban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skrappy1 Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) Yes, Spree did leave and come back, but three players got into a fight with fans. Jackson and O'Neil, by your standards were not attacked... So how does that work out?I'll bet each and every one of you 50 bucks that there will be three Indefinate suspensions, along with lifetime bans for the fans who fought. 565747[/snapback] That's called looking out for one another. When Karim Garcia jumped into the Yankee bullpen at Fenway last year, I think he was completely justified...maybe it was Jeff Nelson who first iniated physical contact with the groundskeeper, but from Karim's point of view, he just saw a guy who should not have been in the bullpen fighting with his teamate. He should've done what he could to help his teamate out in my opinion, same as O'Neil and Jackson shouldn't be blamed for attempting to help Artest. Larry Brown even said he wished that the Piston players would have went into the stands and helped the Pacer players...he caught himself and said not to fight but to help them get out of there and back onto the safety of the court. And Hook is right on this one. There will never be an indefinite suspension because that would mean an undetermined amount of time. They will likely get suspensions, but they will be of a determinate length, I'm certain. Edited November 20, 2004 by Skrappy1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I like how I present facts showing that there is a possiblity of a season long ban, and you discard it because youre letting your homerness get in the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Everyone was wrong. 565755[/snapback] I agree with that completely. Wallace shouln't have shoved Artest. The fan shouldn't have thrown anything. Artest and the rest of the Pacers should have just let security handle it. But to say that everyone is wrong, but the Pacer players will get lifetime bans, or season long suspensions is pretty dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) I like how I present facts showing that there is a possiblity of a season long ban, and you discard it because youre letting your homerness get in the way. 565758[/snapback] what facts???? Because Sprewell choked his coach twice?? This isn't even in the same ball park. The precedent with altercations with fans has been 10 games. And your going to jump from 10 games, to lifetime bans or 73 game bans? I don't think so. Edited November 20, 2004 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 ok, a season long suspension is dumb because Hook says it... Nevermind looking at players going into the crowd in the past, because as you say its another ballpark... Nevermind Doug Christie saying that he suspects to see all three of them gone for the rest of the year... Hook said no, so Christie, someone who is in the nba doesnt know what he's talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 You see it as the precident for player/fan altercations, i See it as violent attacks between players/fans.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gak Attack Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) Sounds like half of the people responding are drunk and stupid, too. "I don't blame them..." and "They had the right..." are emotional opinions about the situation. One person already stated the legal binding fact: if the threat is gone, any action taken is considered an offensive (criminal) action. Playground rules, and egos, aside: * Nobody goes into the stands, the fan who threw the beer gets charged with disorderly conduct or assault. End of story. * Artest goes into the stands, without the threat continuing to assault him, he becomes the assailant. Then, to top it off, once he is back onto the courts, some stupid man mouths-off to him (not illegal - this is America)...and Artest becomes the assailant, AGAIN! You can bet that fat man was just hoping to get popped so he could page his lawyer. In the end, Artest will be the bigger dumbass of those two. Again, they are in the adult world...not the world of grade school recess. Granted, it was a mess ~ the dude who threw the cup needs to get arrested, and Artest needs to get out of the game and into anger management...and Jackson, too. Absurd! And for those of you thinking Artest and Jackson did the right thing - if you have money, please schedule a visit with me so I can toss a beer on you in front of a few witnesses. I would enjoy retiring early. Edited November 20, 2004 by Gak Attack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Yeah, let's go with Christie's word for it. He's a high ranking NBA official. Plus, he just walked off the court of an NBA game well past midnight, and hasn't seen everything yet. I'm sure Stern will check with Christie tomorrow and suspend them for the rest of their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skrappy1 Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 ok, a season long suspension is dumb because Hook says it... Nevermind looking at players going into the crowd in the past, because as you say its another ballpark... Nevermind Doug Christie saying that he suspects to see all three of them gone for the rest of the year... Hook said no, so Christie, someone who is in the nba doesnt know what he's talking about. 565762[/snapback] Something to keep in mind here though, and I'm not trying to belittle yours or anyone elses opinion...this is a completely unprecedented incident. Just because Christie used to play in the NBA in no way makes him an authoritative figure here on the length of suspension. It may be the rest of the season (I doubt it but it could) but regardless, Christie is purely speculating on something with no precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 furthermore, there is nothing to compare this to... This is bigger than Spreewell, or what happened in the yanks bullpen... Now Bill Walton is saying that there will be major implications that will be felt throughout the year... sounds like more than 10 games... oh, nevermind, hook said no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 The quote from the first guy Artest grabbed is VERY important to this conversation. If Artest didn't just start throwing aimless blows at some guy yelling at him, then I don't think he did anything wrong. As Furd pointed out, it's hard to say Artest was "defending" himself by running toward the "threat". However, Furd is dead wrong in saying Artest shouldn't be cut some slack. In my opinion, Artest reacted admirably throughout the entire melee. To have a beer hit him directly in the face and then have the presence of mind to ASK the fan if he was guilty before pummeling him is extremely surprising to me. I can't say I would have been as nice. Why shouldn't we cut Artest some slack? First, he takes a blow to the face by one of the strongest men in the NBA. He backs up and tries to separate himself. Then, Ben Wallace throws a towel at him. Artest lays down on the scoring table, clearly trying to contain his all-too-familiar rage. At that point, he is an active volcano and the only thing keeping him from erupting is his slow backward count from 10 to 1. Then, a cup of beer lands on his face. Does anyone really think what he did was all that uncalled for? He didn't stand up and clock the obnoxious b*tch screaming in his face. He didn't swing at all the taunting, Pistons fans just BEGGING him to release his anger. He made his way in the direction of the thrown beer, grabbed the loudest a-hole, and asked him if he threw the cup. ONLY after being punched in the head FROM BEHIND did he actually use his fists to inflict bodily harm. The fan who threw the beer deserved what he got. Fatass #1 on the court got what he deserved when Artest punched him. And Fatass #2 will probably think twice about going where he doesn't belong after the dent Jermaine O'Neal put in his grill. In fact, EVERY one of the mass-hysteria-infused, sheep-like Pistons fans who threw ANYTHING at the players deserved to get their asses beat. What happened in that stadium tonight was one of the worst displays of human behavior I've ever seen in sports and the blame sits squarely on the shoulders of the fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) One person already stated the legal binding fact: if the threat is gone, any action taken is considered an offensive (criminal) action. Playground rules, and egos, aside: 565765[/snapback] That's not what the Detroit police said in their interview on ESPN. Plus Artest did not physically harm the first guy. No damages. He started throwing punches once he was attacked from behind, and then he has guys aggressively approaching him on the court. Edited November 20, 2004 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Im not saying Christie is the end all be all... Im saying that he knows more than any of us... He is closer to the situation, and sees a lot more than we do... Hook,Turf, if he was just a player, you two and myself are all stupid fans... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skrappy1 Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 furthermore, there is nothing to compare this to... This is bigger than Spreewell, or what happened in the yanks bullpen...Now Bill Walton is saying that there will be major implications that will be felt throughout the year... sounds like more than 10 games... oh, nevermind, hook said no. 565769[/snapback] I do NOT think this is bigger than Sprewell's incident. Again, Sprewell left and then returned and attacked Carlisimo a second time. There is at least some justification that comes from a confrontation being in the heat of the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Detroit police were doing damage control... Was it the police cheif that made the statment? If not, than the police officer's word is equal to any fan... And if the pacers were not in the wrong, why did the police dept tell them that they cant leave detroit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 And for those of you thinking Artest and Jackson did the right thing - if you have money, please schedule a visit with me so I can toss a beer on you in front of a few witnesses. I would enjoy retiring early. 565765[/snapback] Apparently, you're grossly ignorant about the law. I'd be glad to take you up on your offer, but you can actually save yourself the beer money. Just grab your witnesses, call your lawyer, and come on down to my house. Then, SPIT ON MY SHOE and enjoy the ensuing broken nose. You'd be surprised what falls under the realm of "assault" (and therefore justifies self-defense). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skrappy1 Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) Why shouldn't we cut Artest some slack? First, he takes a blow to the face by one of the strongest men in the NBA. He backs up and tries to separate himself. Then, Ben Wallace throws a towel at him. Artest lays down on the scoring table, clearly trying to contain his all-too-familiar rage. At that point, he is an active volcano and the only thing keeping him from erupting is his slow backward count from 10 to 1. Then, a cup of beer lands on his face. Does anyone really think what he did was all that uncalled for? 565771[/snapback] I agree completely, and I am in no way a Ron Artest fan. In fact, I'm the guy who started the last thread in this forum bashing him just last week. I do think he was trying as hard as he could to react admirably in this situation though, and you can't blame a charged up guy from reacting to getting beaned in the face by an object thrown by a fan. Would it have been better had he been able to restrain himself even then? Sure. Was he at least in some way wrong for going into the stands after a fan? Sure. But it was a completely understandable reaction and at least to some degree justified. Edited November 20, 2004 by Skrappy1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 It was the Detroit Duputy Chief of Police. It was wrongly reported the Pacers could not leave. They left shortly after the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratesownninjas Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Here is why its bigger... Its on tape, in public... People react more on what they see rather than what they hear... We all saw it, and instead of disturbing a practice, it canceled out the last 45 seconds of a game... Its bigger because the spree situation involved to people inside the nba... It involved everyday regular people... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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