Clubfoothead Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 He is a bust but he has had to play 4 very good defenses. Baltimore #6 total defense, #4 scoring defense Washington #2 total defense, #6 scoring defense Philly #12 total defense, #3 scoring defense Atlanta #13 total defense, #11 scoring defense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynCrew Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 It's still TOO EARLY to make any real calls on this kid. The team is AWFUL around him... his WR's are limping around, his Oline SUCKS and his defense has lost like, it's FIVE top playmakers... Yeah they chucked him into a meatgrinder, but I doubt they woulda won more than maybe 1 extra game with Warner in there, IF that... and then the kid still has to learn on the job NEXT year. He's played a bunch of tough defenses, and his supporting cast is awful right now. Peyton was 0-4 after his first 4 starts. Simple fact, it's TOO EARLY to make any judgements yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Not really. I live in New York and think the fans have been quite forgiving, so far. Much more than usual because they recognize the scenario. That being said, he's looked horrendous, for several reasons. He's gone against tough defenses, his best weapon has to pass block because the line sucks, and he was thrown into the fire and wasn't prepared. When you say he'll get it soon enough, what have you seen in his play so far that makes you think so? 608033[/snapback] I hate to look at the Atlanta game separate from the rest, but that was the only game where he was playing with a reasonably full playbook. He looked adequate there, pretty much what you'd expect from a rookie. Oddly enough, he actually looked accurate with his throws in that game, something that he hasn't shown as of late. He'll look horrible next week with the Steelers coming to town, but maybe there's a light that goes on after that. Eventually the Giants have to stop playing hte top defenses in the League, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 It's still TOO EARLY to make any real calls on this kid. The team is AWFUL around him... his WR's are limping around, his Oline SUCKS and his defense has lost like, it's FIVE top playmakers... Yeah they chucked him into a meatgrinder, but I doubt they woulda won more than maybe 1 extra game with Warner in there, IF that... and then the kid still has to learn on the job NEXT year. He's played a bunch of tough defenses, and his supporting cast is awful right now. Peyton was 0-4 after his first 4 starts. Simple fact, it's TOO EARLY to make any judgements yet. 608041[/snapback] I'm by no means saying he's a bust, I'm just disagreeing with him being the starter right now. I don't think ANYTHING positive can come from it. Not a single thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 He reminds me a lot of Drew Henson, unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrick35 Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Let's be real here. At 5-2 the Giants wer ein control of their destiny. At 5-4 they had lost their starting safety, and theit 2 starting defensive ends. At 5-5 they could add their starting defensive tackle, all for the year. Coughlin was smart enough to see the writing on the wall and pull Warner to get Manning the game time he needs. It's easy to jump on the Hate Eli bandwagon, but it really is too early to tell. 607879[/snapback] I never said I hated Eli, and I have yet to jump on any bandwagon. But your point of losing 4 Defensive Starters in 3 weeks illustrates my point that perhaps Warner was not to blame for the losses. So why pull him? Coughlin should have stuck with Warner and addressed his defensive injuries because depsite the injuries at 5-4 the Giants did in fact control their own destiny in the Wild Card race. They were in solid possession of a Wild Card Spot and Coughlin pulled the plug on the entire season. That was a big coaching mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 (edited) Eli Manning's first four career starts: vs. ATL: 17/37 162 yards 1 TD 2 INT vs. PHI: 6/21 148 yards 2 INT at WAS: 12/25 113 yards at BAL: 4/18 27 yards 2 INT Peyton Manning's first four career starts: vs. MIA: 21/37 302 yards 1TD 3 INT (one returned for a TD) at NE: 21/33 188 yards 1 TD 3 INT (one returned for a TD) at NYJ: 20/44 193 yards 2 INT vs. NO: 19/32 309 yards 1 TD 3 INT After those 4 starts, Peyton really started to come around. His INT's started to drop. He won his fifth start vs. SD. He had a decent game in a losing effort vs. Buffalo. His break-out game was Week 7 at SF. 18/30 231 yards 3 TD. Colts got absolutely raped by the officiating crew in that game. Colts lost, but you could tell he was gonna be good. He never had a day like Eli had yesterday. That was Ryan Leaf-like. I don't know who said it earlier, but Manning was dropped into a MUCH better offense that Eli. He had Harrison, Faulk, Pollard and Dilger. I think it's funny that both offensive lines were a mess before their respective Manning arrived. The Colts led the league in sacks the year before Peyton arrived. He's got such a quick release though. It has never been a problem since. Manning is part of the reason the Colts have so few sacks. Edited December 13, 2004 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Sacrebleu Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 when the Giants had a chnace to win the game against Atlanta, i was hoping against hope that indeed Coughlin wanted to give his best effort to go to the playoffs and....bring in Warner. when that didn't happen (and I think I was the ever proponent of this move in all of NYC) I knew that Manning was in regardless of what needed to be done to get into the playoffs. But jeez. I don't think it's possible to play worse than manning did. What freaks me out more is looking at his face on the sideline. Not to get political here, but it reminds me of Bush who in 2000 had what was considered a "winning smile" which soon began to grate on people who thought he might lack gravitas, from then on the sh*t eating grin was put away, replaced by someone putting on his "serious face" which to his detractors kind of looked like a kid trying to imitate adults looking serious. Eli on the sidelines looks like a kid who is about to throw a tantrum, give up, and doesn't want to go back out there, but has had it drilled in hi m that he needs to put on his 'leader' face. It's pretty hard to look at a kid who looks like he is about to cry trying to, very unsuccesfully, put on his poker face.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XFlash Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 He is a bust but he has had to play 4 very good defenses. Baltimore #6 total defense, #4 scoring defense Washington #2 total defense, #6 scoring defense Philly #12 total defense, #3 scoring defense Atlanta #13 total defense, #11 scoring defense 608038[/snapback] Agree about his tough schedule, injuries on both side of the ball. Also, Tom does not open up the offense to at least give a threat of passing the deep ball. NYG should be better once healthy. As far as timing of pulling Warner, Kurt was already on the slope. Tom should have waited if Kurt performed just as bad and out of contention before giving Eli the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgcoach Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 (edited) Realistically, Eli is nowhere near the caliber that his brother was at the same point in their careers. Peyton pretty much hit the ground running, despite being on a worse team than this year's Giants. Eli has a good receiver corps. There are a lot of NFL QBs that could do quite a bit with Amani Toomer, Ike Hilliard, Jeremy Shockey and Tiki Barber to throw the ball to. Maybe Eli will turn things around, it has only been 4 games. But frankly, he looks pretty awful out there right now. Ask yourself this, who would you want at QB on your football team right now? Rookie Eli Manning, taken at the start of the first round? Or rookie Ben Rothlisberger, taken in the 4th/5th round I believe. The answer is easy. And quite frankly, Rothlisberger has a worse receiver corps to work with. Better wideouts, but not nearly the tight end or threat out out of the backfield that the Giants have. 607975[/snapback] I agree with what most people were posting here but, you're over the top. Hopefully you're just kidding; better rec. corp, on what planet. The Giant rec. corp. would need zero gravity to get the production Big Ben gets from his. You're talking Shockey in the rec corps. How often does he go into a pattern now? Not too much, he's usually blocking for the extra protection, and so is the back for that matter. While the kid hasn't been good by any stretch of the imagination, give him some time before you get into him being a bust. And before you say he's so far behind his brother. Peyton Manning - QB - Colts - 1998 Regular Season Passing Stats Date Opponent W | L Score Att Com Pct Yards Yds/Att Long Td Int QB Rating Sep 06 MIAMI L 15-24 37 21 56.8 302 8.2 42 1 3 58.6 Sep 13 at New England L 06-29 33 21 63.6 188 5.7 22 1 3 51.1 Sep 20 at New York Jets L 06-44 44 20 45.5 193 4.4 22 0 2 39.3 Sep 27 NEW ORLEANS L 13-19 32 19 59.4 309 9.7 78T 1 3 63.2 In his brothers first four games he had 11int's. to three td's. Not too far off his brothers marks, maybe he doesn't have as many int.'s as Peyton had though. So, before you go and write this kid off, give him a little time and maybe some better people to work with. Edited December 13, 2004 by jgcoach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 (edited) However, Peyton never threw for less than 188 yards. Peyton never had less than 19 completions. Only once did his completion percentage dip below 50%. Eli should be doing better than he has been. That stat line from yesterday really concerns me. at BAL: 4/18 27 yards 2 INT :bigshock: Edited December 13, 2004 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midget Chain Gang Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 I don't think he can be judged a bust after 4 games against the top defenses in the league... However, I do disagree with giving him the start so early in the season... he's getting killed behind that offensive line. That's what they brought Warner in for... for him to be the one with the target on his back while the offensive line lets defenders flow into the backfield at will. Then after Warner's broke, toss him back to the refuse pile in the off-season and fix the problems with the O-line, and give Eli the helm from the start of mini-camp and let him go into a season preparing as the uncontested starter... then see how he responds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Put in Dayne, sit Tiki, the season is over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Let's pretend Ryan Leaf had an older brother who was a better quarterback... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 It's really hard to label a QB after four games against very good defenses, but as someone said earlier, Eli just seems like a scared little puppy. EVERY time I've heard him speak, I think to myself, "What is he? 14 years old?" It's hard to imagine he can gain the mental toughness and confidence necessary to be great in the NFL. So, I don't think he's a "bust" yet, but I think the chances are good that he will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraftykraft Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 First of all, Roethlisberger was taken in the 1st round, the 11th overall pick. I would also beg to differ that Toomer and Hilliard are better than Burress and Ward. 608002[/snapback] Didn't know Rothlisberger's draft position, I thougt he went later than that. For the record, I said that Pittsburgh had better wideouts than the Giants, not worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monsters Of The Midway Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Q: How many leagues am I in this year? A: 16 Q: How many leagues do I have Eli Manning in? A: zero Q: Is there a reason for this? A: Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 For the record, I said that Pittsburgh had better wideouts than the Giants, not worse. 608834[/snapback] Indeed. The wording was a bit awkward. That and I was a bit hungover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilwoman Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 After four games? Give me a break. 607764[/snapback] gads, give the guy a break...not everyone can live up to Roeth their first year....Eil will come around. I hope he has a steel heart, cuz the way people and the sports media talk about him you'd think he at some time must have broken Marinos TD record and now he cant even take a crap correctly.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Q: How many leagues am I in this year?A: 16 Somebody in more leagues than Los Gigantes. :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynCrew Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 again... WAY TOO EARLY to make any judgements on him... simply too early... The supporting cast is pretty bad, and the oline is downright awful. Drew Brees was a bust before this season... It might take another year or two before you can really say a whole lot about whether Eli is a bust... Toomer had no TD's with Warner at the helm... Hilliard looks like he's 800 years old right now. The oline is so bad they can only put a couple guys in patterns without getting the QB killed... it's gonna take some time... And for all the people who question putting him out there... What's the better option? Lose with Warner and have the kid learn on the job NEXT year? I just don't think so. He seems to have a good head on his shoulders, he knows the deal. He's learning, and stinking at the moment. He's got some time to improve, and he likely will. But to call him a bust after a handful of games? Well that's just silly imo. Don't even bother with stats just yet, let's give him some time before jumping to any conclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Sanchez Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 He is a bust but he has had to play 4 very good defenses. Baltimore #6 total defense, #4 scoring defense Washington #2 total defense, #6 scoring defense Philly #12 total defense, #3 scoring defense Atlanta #13 total defense, #11 scoring defense 608038[/snapback] You ain't kidding about the tough schedule. Four of the toughest D's in the league all in a row. It will only get worse next week with Pittsburgh on deck. That's one helluva tough stretch for any QB in the NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolv Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I rook in the league needs confidence more than anything else. I think he's fresh outta that, and I don't see the Giants helping find some anytime soon. Give him back his clipboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithkt Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I rook in the league needs confidence more than anything else. I think he's fresh outta that, and I don't see the Giants helping find some anytime soon. Give him back his clipboard. 610088[/snapback] He needs game experience. I doubt seriously that he lacks confidence in his ability. He's not going to get better watching Warner hold the ball and fall down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolv Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 He needs game experience. I doubt seriously that he lacks confidence in his ability. He's not going to get better watching Warner hold the ball and fall down. 610302[/snapback] Getting destroyed isn't the kind of game experience he needs. The kid looks shellshocked 100% of the time. Don't underestimate confidence (or lack of it). Just ask Warner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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