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Drafting a kicker in the first round.


CaptainHook
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How do you feel about the Raiders selecting him with the seventeenth pick in the 2000 draft?  

55 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you feel about the Raiders selecting him with the seventeenth pick in the 2000 draft?

    • Excellent Selection
      1
    • Good selection
      6
    • Average selection
      8
    • Bad selection
      16
    • Terrible selection
      24


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Very ironic that everyone keeps bringing up shaun alexander and chad pennington.  Those guys are both great players, and better than janikowski, but stop for a minute.  Are you not playin the role of a monday quarterback.  Sure you can say things now, but you had no idea that those two guys would be what they are now. 

 

Hell, as a Browns fan, we could have had anybody we wanted for three years with the number one pick!  But lets face it, at the time, if it looks good, you jump at it.  Janikowski kicked 70 yd FGs in practice in college.  You tell me you wouldnt find that to be worthy.  Thats like finding a WR/RB running a 4.2 40. 

 

Lets face it, a kicker does not earn the respect they should.  The Pats are doing something right, pretty ironic they keep tagging their KICKER.....

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No no didn't you know the Hook man was related to Mel Kiper Jr? Okay he guranteed that Shaun Alexander and Pennington were going to be impact players in the NFL. They were no doubters, anyone could have seen that back in 2000. Especially Capt Hook, after every pick he was screaming "Draft Alexander, he's going to average 16 TD's a year for the next 5 years!!!." He knows these things and he can't wait to tell you how your team should have drafted. He can tell you what your team needs better than you can! He's good like that. And don't disagree with him about how your team turned out after draft day he's got the almighty OPINION on his side.

 

 

Please don't talk about the value of kickers. They're pretty worthless to your team and can be picked up right off the street. Go to Starbucks right now and get that guy from behind the counter and make him your kicker! Then you can draft someone like Rob Morris! Who can be the centerpiece of your defense; I mean who doesn't need a guy who can get you 7 sacks......over 5 years. There aren't too many linebackers that you can find that can get you 2 forced fumbles in 5 years. That kind of impact player can't be found in free agency, you have to draft production like that............

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When the Raiders made this pick, I said it was a terrible waste of a 1st rounder. But I've changed my opinion over time. Master Shake (um, I mean Vatican Hit Squad) has a point. The kicking game was the Raider's chief weakness at the time of the draft. And Seabass has been productive enough not to be a complete bust. So instead of being a terrible pick, it was just a bad one. :D

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So what do you think about the Patriots franchising Vinatieri for the second time in 3 years over impact players like Lawyer Milloy?

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You think Lawyer Milloy is an impact player? Hmmmm.

Edited by CaptainHook
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No no didn't you know the Hook man was related to Mel Kiper Jr?  Okay he guranteed that Shaun Alexander and Pennington were going to be impact players in the NFL.  They were no doubters, anyone could have seen that back in 2000.  Especially Capt Hook, after every pick he was screaming "Draft Alexander, he's going to average 16 TD's a year for the next 5 years!!!."  He knows these things and he can't wait to tell you how your team should have drafted.

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Isn't that what looking back at a draft 5 years later is all about? GM's around the league poo-poo the "grades" given to teams the day after the draft. They say, "Wait for 5 years, and then judge this draft.".

 

Well, at the time almost everyone thought that taking Janikowski at 1.17 was a big reach, and a bad choice. 5 years later, Janikowski is not the unbelievable kicker people thought he could be. Plus, you can see who the Raiders passed on to take him. And phenom, you know it was more than Alexander and Pennington. Isn't that what professional scouting is all about? Figuring out who the best players will be? The Raiders blew it.

 

I think the vote speaks for itself.

 

Then you can draft someone like Rob Morris!  Who can be the centerpiece of your defense; I mean who doesn't need a guy who can get you 7 sacks......over 5 years.   There aren't too many linebackers that you can find that can get you 2 forced fumbles in 5 years.  That kind of impact player can't be found in free agency, you have to draft production like that............

 

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Are you really going to bring the Colts into this thread too? Not surprising, since you cannot defend the Janikowkski pick, you try to change the subject. Nice try. Did you forget that I said:

 

What a stinky draft!  Not to mention the guys who underperformed: Rob Morris, Chris Hovan, Anthony Becht,  and IMO Chris Samuels.

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Oh, and I can readily admit that Morris was a bad choice for the Colts.  The Colts needed a middle linebacker badly.  Morris was the best available.  Unfortunately, he'd never actually played the position at BYU.  He didn't even know what "4-3" or "3-4" meant when he came to the Colts.  They just dropped him in the middle of the field and said, "Get the ballcarrier"  in college.  He has been a starter after tearing up his knee his rookie year.  He has been in the top 3 in tackles for the Colts every year.  And he sucks.  Just because he's stuck with the team doesn't mean he was a good pick.  Imagine, the Colts could have drafted Keith Bullock.

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But, if we must compare the Raiders selections to the Colts:

1996

Colts: Marvin Harrison (19th pick) 845 rec. 11185 yards 98 TD (still a Colt)

Raiders: Rickey Dudley (9) 221 rec. 3024 yards 33 TD (only 5 yrs. with OAK; now in TB)

1997

Colts: Tarik Glenn (19) starter since rookie year, Pro Bowl (still a Colt)

Raiders: Darrell Russell 229 tackles 28.5 sacks (only 5 yrs. with OAK; out of NFL)

1998

Colts: Peyton Manning (1) 2464-3880 216 TD 2-time MVP (still a Colt)

Raiders:Charles Woodson (4) 426 tackles 16 INT's (still with OAK, but may be too expensive now) and Mo Collins (23) off-and-on starter (no longer with the team)

1999

Colts: Edgerrin James (4) 7720 yards 51 TD 2-time NFL rushing champ (still a Colt)

Raiders: Matt Stinchcomb (18) off-and-on starter (5 years with OAK; now in TB)

2000

Colts: Rob Morris (28) 387 tackles 7 sacks 4-year starter (unrestricted free agent)

Raiders: Sebastian Janikowski (17) 118-146 FG's (still with OAK)

2001

Colts: Reggie Wayne (30) 221 rec 3109 yards 23 TD (still with Colts)

Raiders: Derrick Gibson (28) 149 tackles and 3 INT (still with OAK; did not play in 2004)

2002

Colts: Dwight Freeney (11) 106 tackles 40 sacks Pro Bowl (still a Colt)

Raiders:Phillip Buchanon (17) 122 tackles 11 INT (still with OAK) and Napolean Harris (23) 249 tackles 2.5 sacks (rumored to be traded)

2003

Colts: Dallas Clark (24) 54 rec. 763 yards 6 TD (still a Colt)

Raiders:  Nnamdi Asomugha (31) 73 tackles 0 INT 0 (still with OAK) and Tyler Brayton (32) 106 tackles 5 sacks (still with OAK)

2004

Colts: Bob Sanders (44-second round selection) 34 tackles 1 def TD (still a Colt)

Raiders: Robert Gallery (2) 15 starts (still with OAK)

 

Yeah, the Raiders have done so much better with their selections.  Now I see why you think Janikowski was a good pick!  The Raiders make some pretty terrible choices, so a kicker that is still with the team must seem like a steal! Rob Morris may have been a "bad" pick, but he tore his patellar tendon his rookie year. What are the Raiders first-rounder's excuses for sucking?

 

I mean who doesn't need a guy who can get you 7 sacks......over 5 years.   There aren't too many linebackers that you can find that can get you 2 forced fumbles in 5 years.  That kind of impact player can't be found in free agency, you have to draft production like that............

 

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Sounds like Napolean Harris is right on track to equal Morris numbers.

 

Harris: (in three years) 249 tackles 2.5 sacks 3 forced fumbles

Morris: (in five years) 387 tackeles 7 sacks 2 forced fumbles

 

And Morris missed most of his rookie year with that knee injury, I guess you have to draft production like Napoleon Harris'...................

Edited by CaptainHook
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Isn't that what looking back at a draft 5 years later is all about?  GM's around the league poo-poo the "grades" given to teams the day after the draft.  They say, "Wait for 5 years, and then judge this draft.".

 

Well, at the time almost everyone thought that taking Janikowski at 1.17 was a big reach, and a bad choice.  5 years later, Janikowski is not the unbelievable kicker people thought he could be.  Plus, you can see who the Raiders passed on to take him.  And phenom, you know it was more than Alexander and Pennington.  Isn't that what professional scouting is all about?  Figuring out who the best players will be?  The Raiders blew it.

 

I think the vote speaks for itself.

 

 

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Yeah you can but most people understand that it's a lot easier to make the right call 5 years later. All you're pointing out is shoulda, woulda and coulda which is pretty much worthless.

 

 

That vote may be one sided but the only teams that can say they have drafted better are the ones that made it to the Super Bowl and won. Which would be the Ravens, Patriots and Bucanneers. In those 5 years why haven't any others 2000 draft pick made them into a Super Bowl winner. In fact the best pick of that draft would have been Jamal Lewis since he was the big addition to their offense.

 

 

Even Chad Pennington and Alexander looking back over their careers. Did the Jets become a powerhouse team with Chad? No. Is Seattle one of the best teams in the league with Alexander? No. Both of them have flaws.

 

Chad is a little injury prone and I doubt if he would have lead the Raiders to the Super Bowl like Rich Gannon did. Not that Pennington wouldn't be nice to have but I don't think he would have helped the team win then.

 

Shaun Alexander can't even help the Seahawks win one playoff game. What makes you say that adding either one of these players (or any other player in the draft) would have made the Raiders a Super Bowl winner? Because that's the only thing missing. Would any other draft pick have made more of a difference. And you can't say that, you can voice your opinion and you could project but you can't gurantee.

 

What your problem is is that you only look at the pick in black and white. It was a kicker picked in the first round and you disagree with that, period. Janikowski didn't distinguish himself as the best kicker of all time or in the NFL so it was a wasted pick.

 

What you don't understand is the Raiders filled a big weakness. It wasn't about getting the best player available. Janikowski IMO didn't have to be the best kicker of all time he just needed to make 85% of his FG and kick the ball far on kickoff's and the Raiders would be winners.

 

He did that so I'm happy with the pick. Maybe if the Colts would start filling some of their weaknesses instead of overloading on their stregnths they would be able to go to a Super Bowl too.

 

 

You think Lawyer Milloy is an impact player?  Hmmmm.

 

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And you don't?

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Yeah you can but most people understand that it's a lot easier to make the right call 5 years later.  All you're pointing out is shoulda, woulda and coulda which is pretty much worthless.

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Isn't that the point of looking back to evaluate a draft?

 

That vote may be one sided but the only teams that can say they have drafted better are the ones that made it to the Super Bowl and won.  Which would be the Ravens, Patriots and Bucanneers.

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That's ludicrous. Many teams can say they drafted better than the Raiders. Especially since the Raiders didn't win the SB.

 

Shaun Alexander can't even help the Seahawks win one playoff game.  What makes you say that adding either one of these players (or any other player in the draft) would have made the Raiders a Super Bowl winner?  Because that's the only thing missing.  Would any other draft pick have made more of a difference.  And you can't say that, you can voice your opinion and you could project but you can't gurantee. 

 

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But you can't guarantee that the Raiders WOULDN'T have been better if they'd drafted somebody else. Maybe they win that SB. . .

 

What your problem is is that you only look at the pick in black and white.  It was a kicker picked in the first round and you disagree with that, period.  Janikowski didn't distinguish himself as the best kicker of all time or in the NFL so it was a wasted pick.

 

What you don't understand is the Raiders filled a big weakness.  It wasn't about getting the best player available.  Janikowski IMO didn't have to be the best kicker of all time he just needed to make 85% of his FG and kick the ball far on kickoff's and the Raiders would be winners.

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I do understand that the Raiders kicking was terrible. But Janikowski wasn't even all that great his rookie year (22-32). Couldn't the Raiders have picked up a free agent kicker, or even drafted Edinger, and gotten similiar or possibly better performance? And then that first rounder would be freed up to take a player that can make a bigger difference in a game. Maybe a running back so that the Raiders didn't have to use RBBC. Maybe some help on defense to stop Tom Brady and the Pats in the snow. Maybe an offensive lineman that could have helped offset the loss of Barrett Robbins in the Super Bowl. I just think the reward of doing it that way was greater than just drafting a kicker.

 

 

Maybe if the Colts would start filling some of their weaknesses instead of overloading on their stregnths they would be able to go to a Super Bowl too. 

And you don't?

 

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Really, the Colts have nothing to do with this. It is sad that you continue to bring them up to bolster your argument. It shows you don't have much to stand on.

Edited by CaptainHook
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We're going to see how valuable a kicker is this offseason, with Vinatieri being the franchise tag in NE.

 

Is it possible someone forfeits first round picks to sign him away from NE?

 

If so, would that be considered a waste of a first round pick? I'd trade away a first rounder to land the most clutch performer at his position, kicker or not.

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