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Speaking of the baseball HOF


Puddy
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Reading the other thread about Kirby, Rice and Mattingly got me thinking about Alan Trammel. I've listened to some arguments on local radio for and against. I'm actually undecided, unless the decision is based on comparing him to peers from his era who made it.

 

I did a quick search and found an argument I pretty much agree with. I have copied it below from a site called (showerthoughts.blogspot.com) - in case the plagiarism police are around.

 

 

 

Why Isn't Alan Trammel In the Hall of Fame?

 

When I turned eight, the only thing I wanted for my birthday was an Alan Trammel jersey. Later that year, when my family spent a day at Tigers Spring Training in Lakeland, FL the only autograph I wanted was Alan Trammel's. When I played Little League Baseball, I asked my coaches to ignore the hard and fast rule that lefties can't play shortstop because I wanted to be like Alan Trammel. So I ask this with the slightest bias, but someone please explain to me why Alan Trammel is not in the National Baseball Hall of Fame?

 

Robin Yount is in, Ozzie Smith is in. In fact both these yahoos made it in on the first ballot, which is supposed to be reserved for the most deserving of all hall of famers. Trammel critics point out that he had a career batting average of .285 with only 185 HR's and less than 2,500 hits. All valid criticisms, but let us not forget that Alan Trammel was a SHORTSTOP. Until freaks like Alex Rodriguez came along shortstops were required to play defense and any little bit of offense they supplied was considered a bonus. Tram won a gold glove as the best defensive SS in the American League four times... Robin Yount never did. "But Robin could hit," says you. True Robin hit better than Tram... his 162 game average was .285 with 14 HR and 80 RBI, that's pretty fine for a SS. Tram's 162 game average was .285 with 13 HR and 71 RBI, not too shabby either. Let's not forget either that Robin never played another game at SS after 1984 when he hurt his knees. Most of the rest of his career was spent in the much less demanding Centerfield. Tram moved around the field later in his career, but still played SS more than any other position every year of his career.

 

Now Ozzie, this gets me really riled up. Was Ozzie Smith the best defensive SS ever? Yeah probably. Ozzie's fielding percentage was an astounding .978. Meaning 97.8% of the time the ball was hit to him he made the play. That is remarkable. Tram's fielding percentage at SS was a much more pedestrian .977. Can you believe that ***? Me neither. I'm stupefied. So Ozzie must have been quite a batsman to be a first ballot hall of famer right? Not so at all, the SOB was a career .262 hitter... over 20 points below Tram. His 162 game average was a .262 BA, 2 HR, and 50 RBI.

 

Ozzie Smith and Robin Yount were both primarily SS, contemporaries of Alan Trammel and first ballot hall of famers. Yesterday, Alan Trammel recieved 13.8% of the vote for the Hall of Fame. You need 75% to be inducted. This is a tragedy, and baseball should be ashamed.

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I'd also agree with most of that article, and with the statement that Trammell should get into the Hall. He's yet another borderline guy, but he was a shortstop which means you have to view his offensive numbers in a different light than most. He was a great defensive shortstop (a 4 time gold-glover), a six time All-Star, and a World Series MVP.

 

Ozzie Smith is in primarily for his defense as he is considered the greatest defensive shortstop of all-time...fielding percentage aside, I know Trammell never had the range that Ozzie did. Robin Yount made it because he was a better hiter than Trammell, he won a couple of MVP awards, and he also made it to the "magical" 3,000 hit plateau.

 

I do think that Trammell will get inducted eventually, but it's not a sure thing. I also think if he does get in, it would be a crying shame for Whitaker not to go in as well. They're borderline guys, but they also played middle infield positions in a different era...their offensive numbers certainly don't blow you away, but in their primes, in my opinion, they were both easily among the finest offensive and defensive players at their positions. I say put 'em both in.

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Yount had 3000 hits, that makes him an automatic. Ozzie not only had an incredible fielding percentage (the standard that says he made the "easy" plays), but he was an acrobat, and made more absolutely incredible palys than any other base ball played I've ever seen. He was on the highlights almost every day.

 

While Trammel was a very exceptional shortstop, he fits neither of the criteria that Yount and Smith have, as mentioned above.

 

A friend of mine and I have discussed this.... we would like to see an addition to Cooperstown. A seperate "hall", for players like Rizzuto, Trammel, Hernandez... players whose accomplishments deserve recognition, but fall short of what I think should be a very exclusive club, the HOF. Cal Ripken ..... should he be in or out? He broke an unbreakable record, but is he an HOF'er? Yes, but only because he had 3000 hits. Otherwise, he's a lot like Trammel. Outstanding career.

 

Smith gets in because not only was he the best defensive SS of all time, he is probably the best defensive BASEBALL player of all time. That seperates him. No, i dont think Trammel should be in the hall.... but players like him DO deserve some place of recognition. Just not in the same room with Babe Ruth, George Sisler, Hank Aaron, Cy Young, etc.

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Cal Ripken ..... should he be in or out? He broke an unbreakable record, but is he an HOF'er? Yes, but only because he had 3000 hits.

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I don't know about all that...let's not forget that the guy also holds the record for most HRs by a shorstop, and other than A-Rod, I don't think anyone else is even close. He also has over 1600 RBIs and over 1600 runs scored...neither are anything to sneeze at. Oh yeah, he also played in 19 STRAIGHT all-star games, and won 2 MVP awards. I think you're not giving Ripken nearly enough credit.

 

As far as the idea for the Hall, it's not a bad one, I just don't think that baseball would ever try to do something like that. As it stands, the one thing that has historically separated the best of the best from the other moderately greats is a first ballot induction...that's what made me post the Kirby thread in the beginning, not that I'm so offended that he made it in, I just don't see how he's a first ballot guy...I guess I underestimated the sympathy factor though.

Edited by Skrappy1
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Yea, I did sell Ripken short, I pulled a name out of the hat, without enough thought. Getting into the hall is more a popularity contest with the baseball writers. Unfortunate, but true. They liked Kirby. They dont like Eddie Murray. Yes, and they felt sorry for Kirby because he was going blind.

 

I also agree that Cooperstown would never be smart enough to have a "Hall of Honor" or something like that. The first ballot thing has become a way of measuring a ballplayers' greatness. And, based on his career, no way should Kirby have been a first ballot entry, agreed.

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Yea, I did sell Ripken short,

 

 

Way short. Ripken's hands down one of the greatest players to ever pick up a glove or a bat.

 

Getting into the hall is more a popularity contest with the baseball writers. Unfortunate, but true. They liked Kirby. They dont like Eddie Murray.

 

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The why is Eddie Murray a 1st ballot HOFer?

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Way short. Ripken's hands down one of the greatest players to ever pick up a glove or a bat.

The why is Eddie Murray a 1st ballot HOFer?

 

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I admitted that what I said about Ripken was an off the top of my head mistake.... but to say he is one of the greatest players ever? Can't agree with that. He did not dominate his era. In many ways he was great, but not one of the greatest of all time, in my opinion.

 

Eddie Murray? Did I say anything about him being a first ballot guy, one way or the other? No, I was pointing out that he was not popular with the writers. But. since you bring it up....

*Only switch hitter besides Rose to get to the 3000 hit mark.

*One of three players to hit 500 HR's and 3000 hits. Mays and Aaron are the other two.

*Perhaps the best hitter ever, with the bases loaded. .399 BA, 19 grand slams

 

Stats: over 1900 RBI's, 1600 runs, 500 HR's, 3000 hits

 

The only reason he never won the MVP is because he would not talk to the baseball writers. I think he is a first ballot guy, especially if Kirby Puckett is.

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I admitted that what I said about Ripken was an off the top of my head mistake.... but to say he is one of the greatest players ever? Can't agree with that. He did not dominate his era. In many ways he was great, but not one of the greatest of all time, in my opinion.

 

 

Ripken is the best shortstop to play the game in the last 70 years (present players excluded). That makes him one of the greatest ever by definition. He revolutionized the way shortstops play the game. Ask Alex Rodriguez.

 

Eddie Murray? Did I say anything about him being a first ballot guy, one way or the other? No, I was pointing out that he was not popular with the writers. But. since you bring it up....

 

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My guess is you don't pay much attention to baseball.

 

Eddie Murray was elected to the HOF on his 1st ballot two years ago.

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No, it's that you have difficulty with reading comprehension when reading my posts, or you just like to argue with me. You asked why Eddie Murray is a 1st round ballot hall of famer. I answered. I never said one way or the other if he was indeed a first ballot entry. I DID compare his popularity with the writers to how popular Kirby was with them.

 

I would not agrue the point, as to whether or not Ripken was the best SS in baseball for 70 years.... but I don't think because he was a SS, a position dominated by defense, not offense, as a strategy for all that time makes him one of the "greatest to ever pick up a glove". And with that, I leave you to find someone else to argue with.

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No, it's that you have difficulty with reading comprehension when reading my posts, or you just like to argue with me.

 

 

I grant you that we had a little tete-a-tete last week on a completely different topic, but you've made a couple ridiculous statements in this thread.

 

You asked why Eddie Murray is a 1st round ballot hall of famer. I answered. I never said one way or the other if he was indeed a first ballot entry. I DID compare his popularity with the writers to how popular Kirby was with them.

 

 

Actually, here's what you said:

 

Getting into the hall is more a popularity contest with the baseball writers. Unfortunate, but true. They liked Kirby. They dont like Eddie Murray.

 

 

Dude, you question Cal Ripken's credentials to get into the Hall, then use Eddie Murray as an example of HOF voting bias. I'm just questioning what you're even talking about because those examples are ludicrus.

 

And I'm in no way an Oriole fan.

Edited by godtomsatan
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Robin Yount is in, Ozzie Smith is in. In fact both these yahoos...

 

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The dude sorta lost me right about here. "Yahoos"? No disrespect to Tram, who had a fine career, but I'd say both those guys are pretty tough to assail.

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The dude sorta lost me right about here. "Yahoos"? No disrespect to Tram, who had a fine career, but I'd say both those guys are pretty tough to assail.

 

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Yeah the guy should have showed more respect, but he was obviously biased toward Trammel. I do think the overall argument is valid however, and compared to those two peers of his, Trammel should have gotten more votes than he did, if they are first ballot guys.

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The dude sorta lost me right about here. "Yahoos"? No disrespect to Tram, who had a fine career, but I'd say both those guys are pretty tough to assail.

 

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Trammell's penalty, IMO, is that he hung around too long. He was a platoon player for the final 5 seasons he played, only getting more than 400 AB once.

 

His peak from about 83 to 88 or so is phenomenal. I'd call Trammell a great player, but I don't think he's a HOFer.

 

What a great roster that 84 Tigers club had. Lou Whitaker, Alan Trammell, Howard Johnson in the infield. Larry Herndon, Chet Lemon, Kirk Gibson in the outfield, with Darrell Evans the DH. Probably the best individual team between the Big Red Machine and the Toronto juggernaut of the early 90s.

 

No HOFers though, except for Sparky Anderson, unless Jack Morris gets in.

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I grant you that we had a little tete-a-tete last week on a completely different topic, but you've made a couple ridiculous statements in this thread.

Actually, here's what you said:

Dude, you question Cal Ripken's credentials to get into the Hall, then use Eddie Murray as an example of HOF voting bias. I'm just questioning what you're even talking about because those examples are ludicrus.

 

And I'm in no way an Oriole fan.

 

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Puckett got 82% of the vote on his first ballot. Murray got 85% on his. Puckett should not have been a first ballot entry, while Murray should have gotten more like 95% on the first ballot. Does that clear it up for you? They like Kirby, they don't like Eddie.

 

I did not question Ripken's credentials for getting into the hall. He is a first round inductee for sure. 3000 hits makes it automatic, add the iron man steak in, and he's in, a no brainer. It's also true that he holds the record for HR's for a SS, career. Having said all that,when compared to Trammel and Yount's numbers as a short stop, year by year, he does not blow them away. While Ripken did win two gold gloves, it was based more on his fielding percentages, which were outstanding. He always made a play on a ball he could get to, but.... he lacked the range that most SS's should have, IMHO. His first of two AL MVP's, the one in '83 should have gone to Murray, another time he lost votes due to his unpopularity with the writers.

 

His lifetime BA is .276. Not bad, but not what I would call deserving of being called one of the best who ever picked up a glove. He couldn't steal bases either. I do think Ripken is over rated. Most SS's like him get converted to other positions because thier defense isnt good enough. In his case, although his hands were as steady an anyones, he lacked the range most teams want out of the position. Remember the battle they had with him when they tried to move him to third, where he probably should have been in the first place?

 

Teams still like to move players like Ripken away from short. Guys like Jeter and ARod are unique, they do have the range you want defensively in that position.

 

I did not question his credentials at all. The point I made was that without the 3000 hits and breaking Lou's streak, the seperation between him and other SS's is not so great. He is still the best offensive SS however, so before you jump on my hiney for that... so.... just to make this PERFECTLY clear.... yes, I think Ripken is absoulutely a first round entry into the hall, and should be. But, he was not one of the greatest of all time.

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Beverly Hills Cop clinched it for him.  :D

 

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Please pardon the idiocy ... :D

 

Back to the topic at hand ... Tram -- he was a verrrrry good player and had a verrrrrrrry good career. I'd reserve the hall for the spectacular or the dominant. Ozzie had the range and the incredible plays -- to me, he's just barely a Hall of Famer, just barely as "spectacular", as his weak bat almost drags him out in my mind. Robin Yount? Liked him a lot a player, but wouldn't have put him in the hall of fame. All star? Yep. Repeatedly. Not quite enough. He strikes me as similar to Tramm, though Yount got 3,000 hits and that's kind of magical -- or was then. Tramm? He was verrrrrry good. An all star for quite a while. Just not spectacular or dominant. In MY book, which has no vote, that would keep me from voting for him.

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Robin Yount?  Liked him a lot a player, but wouldn't have put him in the hall of fame.  All star?  Yep.  Repeatedly.  Not quite enough.  He strikes me as similar to Tramm, though Yount got 3,000 hits and that's kind of magical -- or was then.  Tramm?  He was verrrrrry good.  An all star for quite a while.  Just not spectacular or dominant.  In MY book, which has no vote, that would keep me from voting for him.

 

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Yount won 2 MVPs - at short and in center. Pretty impressive right there. Also got all 3000 of his hits as a position player, didn't DH (not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that - I have no problem with Murray and Paul Molitor getting in).

 

As for 3000 hits, I think that number still holds "magic"; 500 home runs has been somewhat devalued, but certainly may regain its cachet if home run totals (and players) shrink due to the new steroid policy.

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The why is Eddie Murray a 1st ballot HOFer?

 

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Beverly Hills Cop clinched it for him.  :D

 

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Not a terrible joke Donutron.

 

How about this one. He is one of the most prolific kickers in NFL history, of course he's a first ballot guy. :D

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What a dysfunctional organization baseball is.  They can't find a single player to put into the HOF this year?

 

Tony Oliva should be in.

 

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They actually put two players in...Wade Boggs and Ryne Sandberg. It was the Veteran's Committee that failed to induct anyone this year.

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Oliva.... he was a great ball player. He never won an MVP, and that hurts him, but what hurts him even more is that he was playing during the age of the pitchers. Stats were down, HR's, BA's, you name it, all the batting numbers were down. I remember Yaz winning the batting title with an average right around .300, .298 was it? I was a big Oliva fan, considering I was a kid from NY.

 

Still, he ended with a .304 lifetime BA. If they had lowered the mound and tightened the strike zone sooner, he might have made it, but playing in an era when the best pitchers in baseball had ERA's under 2.00, it's unlikely he ever gets in.

 

I've got one for you. Gil Hodges. Ten years in a row in the top ten HR list, seven years in a row of over 100 RBI's. Only a .278 lifetime BA though. Tack on the fact he managed the Mets to a WS win over Baltimore in '69. Awesome glove at first, several GG's. Do you think he should be in?

Edited by Rovers
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