SEC, your signature

[WaterMan]

Do you think he was mentioning all flags including the Confederate flag?

[SEC=UGA]

Do you think he was mentioning all flags including the Confederate flag?

 

Nah, he probably liked the moxie that the rebels showed while battling against the imperialistic and oppressive federal government.

 

In every wise struggle for human betterment one of the main objects, and often the only object, has been to achieve in large measure equality of opportunity. In the struggle for this great end, nations rise from barbarism to civilization, and through it people press forward from one stage of enlightenment to the next. One of the chief factors in progress is the destruction of special privilege. The essence of any struggle for healthy liberty has always been, and must always be, to take from some one man or class of men the right to enjoy power, or wealth, or position, or immunity, which has not been earned by service to his or their fellows. That is what you fought for in the Civil War, and that is what we strive for now.

[SEC=UGA]

On a more serious note... I really think what the quote shows is a movement of philosophy, a bastardization, if you will of the "Progressive" movement. If you look at much of what Roosevelt championed it involved progressive policies, though at times he was contradictory in some of his ideology, as most of us are. Roosevelt was a huge champion of unionization and "Trust Busting." He was a champion of the working man. He believed in unionization, but believed that each man should stand on his own merits, things which today are quite contradictory as unions in many cases coddle those who do not stand on their own merit and penalize those who work hard.

 

It is both foolish and wicked to teach the average man who is not well off that some wrong or injustice has been done him, and that he should hope for redress elsewhere than in his own industry, honesty, and intelligence.

 

It is essential that there should be organization of labor. This is an era of organization. Capital organizes and therefore labor must organize.

 

To specifically address my signature, I think one needs to look at immigration in the perspective of those who were more closely linked to times that saw large scale foreign immigration during the early years of our country and from one of the founders of the "Progressive" agenda. There was great concern during the time of Roosevelt that many Western Europeans were fleeing to the US as a safe zone but were refusing to assimilate into the American mold. It was necessary for him to espouse the ideology that this country is great because of the "American Ideal". The only way to maintain America as a beacon of power and economic opportunity was for immigrants to assimilate to the American Ideology, foregoing there culture and national identity, rather than America assimilating to their culture and ideology.

 

Progressives today take the exact opposite stance. Today, we must coddle ethnic and philosophical minorities. We must assimilate our American culture to conform to their ideology and their culture. Modern "Progressives" have turned the idea of America onto its head and that is what I'm trying to show.

Edited July 13, 2010 by SEC=UGA

[matt770]

On a more serious note... I really think what the quote shows is a movement of philosophy, a bastardization, if you will of the "Progressive" movement. If you look at much of what Roosevelt championed it involved progressive policies, though at times he was contradictory in some of his ideology, as most of us are. Roosevelt was a huge champion of unionization and "Trust Busting." He was a champion of the working man. He believed in unionization, but believed that each man should stand on his own merits, things which today are quite contradictory as unions in many cases coddle those who do not stand on their own merit and penalize those who work hard.

 

 

 

 

 

To specifically address my signature, I think one needs to look at immigration in the perspective of those who were more closely linked to times that saw large scale foreign immigration during the early years of our country and from one of the founders of the "Progressive" agenda. There was great concern during the time of Roosevelt that many Western Europeans were fleeing to the US as a safe zone but were refusing to assimilate into the American mold. It was necessary for him to espouse the ideology that this country is great because of the "American Ideal". The only way to maintain America as a beacon of power and economic opportunity was for immigrants to assimilate to the American Ideology, foregoing there culture and national identity, rather than America assimilating to their culture and ideology.

 

Progressives today take the exact opposite stance. Today, we must coddle ethnic and philosophical minorities. We must assimilate our American culture to conform to their ideology and their culture. Modern "Progressives" have turned the idea of America onto its head and that is what I'm trying to show.

 

You just swatted a gnat with a bazooka.

 

Don't get me wrong, it was fun to watch.

[westvirginia]

You just swatted a gnat with a bazooka.

 

Don't get me wrong, it was fun to watch.

 

Yeah, it's like wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty, but the pig likes it.

[WaterMan]

Nah, he probably liked the moxie that the rebels showed while battling against the imperialistic and oppressive federal government.

 

 

But he supported the Union.

 

Theodore Sr. was an active supporter of the Union during the Civil War. He was one of the Charter Members of the Union League Club, which was founded to promote the Northern cause. He has not been listed as such, probably because his wife was a loyal supporter of the Confederacy. It was perhaps because of her active support of the Confederate Army that Theodore Sr. hired a replacement to fulfill his draft obligation in the Army of the Potomac. During the war, he and two friends, William E. Dodge, Jr. and Theodore B. Bronson, drew up an Allotment System, which amounted to a soldier's payroll deduction program to support families back home. He then went to Washington, lobbied for, and won acceptance of this system, with the help of Abraham Lincoln himself. Theodore Sr. and Mr. Dodge were appointed Allotment Commissioners from NY State. At their own expense, the two men toured all NY divisions of the Army of the Potomac in the field to explain this program and sign interested men up, with a significant degree of success. In 1864, the Union League Club recruited money and food to send Thanksgiving Dinner to the entire Army of the Potomac. Theodore Sr. served as Treasurer for this generous outpouring of support for the troops. The elder Roosevelt meticulously listed every donation received in a Union League Report dated December 1864.

 

[SEC=UGA]

But he supported the Union.

 

 

 

 

Um, do you see the little unsure thingy at the bottom of the post? And, actually, your quote is from his dad. Yes, his dad was a big supporter of the Union as I'm pretty certain he would have been as well.

 

Now, if you want to continue this conversation based on the merits of my second, more serious, post, I welcome that. If you want to continue with the inane prattle about whether I think he felt the same way about people who supported the confederacy, it will be a lonely battle from here on out.

 

Finally, if you are implying that I somehow hold the Confederacy as highly as the USA, you're incorrect in that assumption. My loyalties rest supremely with the USA and I would hold no country or Confederation in as high of regard, nor would I contemplate supporting them in a battle against the USA.

Edited July 13, 2010 by SEC=UGA

[WaterMan]

Um, do you see the little unsure thingy at the bottom of the post? And, actually, your quote is from his dad. Yes, his dad was a big supporter of the Union as I'm pretty certain he would have been as well.

 

Yeah I went back and saw it was Sr. who was the big supporter. From this quote it seems he viewed blacks as men and probably wouldn't have supported the Confederates.

 

Quote regarding African Americans: "I have not been able to think out any solution of the terrible problem offered by the presence of the Negro on this continent, but of one thing I am sure, and that is that inasmuch as he is here and can neither be killed nor driven away, the only wise and honorable and Christian thing to do is to treat each black man and each white man strictly on his merits as a man, giving him no more and no less that he shows himself worthy to have."

 

Finally, if you are implying that I somehow hold the Confederacy as highly as the USA, you're incorrect in that assumption. My loyalties rest supremely with the USA and I would hold no country or Confederation in as high of regard, nor would I contemplate supporting them in a battle against the USA.

 

I'm not attacking you or anything. I'm just wondering if you think Theodore would have a problem with people who today fly the Confederate flag next to the US Flag. I know they do it here in South Carolina. It's almost as if that other flag was another country they support. And I know some of them do it out of respect for elders who fought against the United States, but going by Theodore's quote it is like they hold both at the same level as they fly them side by side. I think Theodore's question might be which country do they support? The US 100% or just 50%.