detlef Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Why is it that any reasonable person can understand something is absolutely lame but the people in charge of making rules on this subject are incapable? Coaches have been complaining for some time about guys drawing charges right under the rim. Rightly so, because it's freaking bush-league. Standing with your hands protecting your nads right under the rim is not playing D, it's trying to draw a BS call. The NBA understands this, and now, it appears, so does the NCAA. Well sort of. Seems as if they're adopting the same "no-charge" zone but are stopping short of actually painting the line under the rim and simply allowing the officials to make a judgment call on whether a guy is in the zone. What the hell? Dudes, you're right there, right on the verge of actually doing something that makes sense and, at the last second, you go and screw it up! Why not do away with the key? Just let the officials decide if a guy has been standing too close to the rim for 3 seconds and make the call. Why not have guys stand some arbitrary distance from the rim on a FT and hope they don't get the call? It's just so freaking lame. Is it a small thing. Absolutely. But apparently the NCAA agrees that it should not be a charge if a dude is under the rim. So why sabotage the rule by making it more of a judgment call than it has to be? It's as if the refs are so starved for attention or power that they want to be able to wing it or they envy baseball umps for the fact that they get to establish their own strike zone. Effing idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 At least it's progress. Plus, I don't know... I actually think the rule might be better enforced if there is no semi-circle there for the players and refs to worry about. The whole point of the rule is so that players can't step in front of an offensive player, who is about to make a layup, and draw an offensive foul, when they were really in no position to stop the player from scoring otherwise. In the NBA (with the semi-circle), you see players do that exact thing all the time... they just are able to slide slightly outside of the line, which supposedly makes it OK. To me, that's lame... I think I'd rather see the refs make a judgment call, and call it against the defender any time that defender steps in front of a player who is making their final step/move to the hoop. It's different than the free-throw line, or three-point line... this rule has more to do with the circumstances than it does the distance from the hoop. We're talking about people who understand the game of basketball here... no need for a line, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 At least it's progress. Plus, I don't know... I actually think the rule might be better enforced if there is no semi-circle there for the players and refs to worry about. The whole point of the rule is so that players can't step in front of an offensive player, who is about to make a layup, and draw an offensive foul, when they were really in no position to stop the player from scoring otherwise. In the NBA (with the semi-circle), you see players do that exact thing all the time... they just are able to slide slightly outside of the line, which supposedly makes it OK. To me, that's lame... I think I'd rather see the refs make a judgment call, and call it against the defender any time that defender steps in front of a player who is making their final step/move to the hoop. It's different than the free-throw line, or three-point line... this rule has more to do with the circumstances than it does the distance from the hoop. We're talking about people who understand the game of basketball here... no need for a line, IMO. That's actually a really great point. I hadn't thought of it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 At least it's progress. Plus, I don't know... I actually think the rule might be better enforced if there is no semi-circle there for the players and refs to worry about. The whole point of the rule is so that players can't step in front of an offensive player, who is about to make a layup, and draw an offensive foul, when they were really in no position to stop the player from scoring otherwise. In the NBA (with the semi-circle), you see players do that exact thing all the time... they just are able to slide slightly outside of the line, which supposedly makes it OK. To me, that's lame... I think I'd rather see the refs make a judgment call, and call it against the defender any time that defender steps in front of a player who is making their final step/move to the hoop. It's different than the free-throw line, or three-point line... this rule has more to do with the circumstances than it does the distance from the hoop. We're talking about people who understand the game of basketball here... no need for a line, IMO. I disagree - Det nailed it - they have the right idea adopting the NBA line and are trying to incorporate it, so why not put the line in?? ridiculous, how is not actually putting a line in any different than the old block/charge rule? answer- it isn't. Maybe refs will not call late and/or deep charges under the basket but it still is a judgement call. The NBA does a much better job at calling blocks/charges, I think the line is one reason. It isn't perfect, but it does give the refs a clear definition to try and take the judgement out of the equation AND it also serves as a nice deterrent to defenders taking charges under the basket. the block/charge call will always be a tough one, players sliding in late, feet still moving etc. - the line helps clarify this, and also is a safety issue to eliminate guys like Wojo and Paulis taking charges deep in the lane. another NCAA F up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 eliminate guys like Wojo and Paulis taking charges deep in the lane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 perfek illustration please forward that link directly to Megan Foxtards@ncaa.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) perfek illustration please forward that link directly to Megan Foxtards@ncaa.org Well, in fairness, that was not called a charge, so they actually got it right, even without the stripe. ETA: None the less, I could watch that clip about 20 times. Edited October 30, 2009 by detlef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Right... Because the NBA game is a so much better product than college hoops. If that's college hoops' biggest "F up", things are pretty good, IMO. I still maintain that this particular rule has very little to do with whether or not there is a line in place. Redefine/change the rule... that's all the NCAA needs to do. It sounds like they've done that, which should address what is really a pretty minor issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share Posted October 31, 2009 Right... Because the NBA game is a so much better product than college hoops. Given my locale, it's obvious where I come out on this argument. For whatever reason, I stopped watching the NBA a while ago and just don't have the time to include another sport to follow now. However, I've heard far too many people who's opinion I trust insist that the NBA is a much better product. Some have said that College hoops vs the NBA is like women's hoops vs men's. Whether or not this is certainly true, it seems at least safe to say it's not a foregone conclusion that college hoops is a better product. At least the games themselves. The rivalries and all that are another thing entirely and perhaps the one and done format of the playoff makes March Madness more interesting than the pros. But none of those have anything to do with the actual game play itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Given my locale, it's obvious where I come out on this argument. For whatever reason, I stopped watching the NBA a while ago and just don't have the time to include another sport to follow now. However, I've heard far too many people who's opinion I trust insist that the NBA is a much better product. Some have said that College hoops vs the NBA is like women's hoops vs men's. Whether or not this is certainly true, it seems at least safe to say it's not a foregone conclusion that college hoops is a better product. At least the games themselves. The rivalries and all that are another thing entirely and perhaps the one and done format of the playoff makes March Madness more interesting than the pros. But none of those have anything to do with the actual game play itself. I don't know anybody (at least anybody who knows much about basketball) who says that the NBA is a better product. The people I do know who follow the NBA, and don't watch NCAA basketball, are your typical mainstream fans who never played the game, never coached the game, but follow the NBA because it's what they see being advertised... Lebron, Kobe, Howard, etc. I follow the NBA because I'm in three fantasy hoops leagues... If not for that, I think I would have lost interest in the NBA years ago. Talk to your average die-hard sports fans, and I would guess that maybe 30-40% of them follow the NBA relatively closely. Most fans that I know either watch it a lot, or not much at all. On the other hand, EVERYBODY watches March Madness, even sports fans who don't watch college hoops at all during the regular season. Clearly, there's something to be said for the excitement of the NCAA tournament, in comparison to the NBA playoffs. The last time we actually saw an NBA Finals that the general public was truly excited about was probably Lakers/Celtics in the late 80's. It's been for the most part, ever since. Sure, they're great athletes. That's not the point. The NBA has been watered down by expansion, and I just can't get very excited for regular-season games in which we never know which players are going to truly show up, which ones are going to sit due to a mystery injury (which probably means they were out too late the night before), and which ones are going to play, but not really put forth much of an effort. The NBA playoffs make things a little bit more interesting, but even those are a bore for the first round or two, usually. Sure, you have an occasional exception, like the Chicago/Boston series last year, but that's the exception, not the norm. Too many teams are in the league, and too many teams make the playoffs. Most importantly, the league is dominated by overpaid thugs, which just makes it less interesting than college to a true hoops fan. As far as the charge rule goes, I was just playing devil's advocate... It's really not an important enough issue to get into an argument about. I'm not surprised you brought it up, though... Duke probably took advantage of that rule (or lack of) more than any other team last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share Posted October 31, 2009 Most importantly, the league is dominated by overpaid thugs, which just makes it less interesting than college to a true hoops fan. And with that, you have just discredited your entire argument and identified yourself as someone who actually is not paying attention and bringing up something that hasn't been true for years. At lest in general. Again, the fact that March Madness is more exciting has nothing to do with the product on the floor and everything to do with, one bad game and you're gone. The Cinderellas would never make the sweet 16 or elite 8 if they had to wine series to get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 (edited) And with that, you have just discredited your entire argument and identified yourself as someone who actually is not paying attention and bringing up something that hasn't been true for years. At lest in general. Again, the fact that March Madness is more exciting has nothing to do with the product on the floor and everything to do with, one bad game and you're gone. The Cinderellas would never make the sweet 16 or elite 8 if they had to wine series to get there. How? And, what makes you think that hasn't been true in years? Delonte West would be a perfect example, from just a few weeks ago. College is a better product, and outside of the mainstream casual fans, most die-hards would agree. Granted, I don't think NBA players are any more overpaid than other pro athletes, and the thug "factor" or "ratio" probably isn't any greater in the NBA than it is in the NFL. It's a part of all pro sports... impossible to avoid, when you have kids making that much money, and in turn not making smart decisions. The difference is that, in the NFL, every game between contenders matters. When was the last time an NBA regular-season game mattered? They don't, period, and the players know that, which is what makes it a much less attractive/interesting product. Give me BYU/Utah or Indiana/Iowa over Memphis/Charlotte or OKC/Minnesota, any day. It's got nothing to do with the tourney... regular season is better than the NBA as well. Don't get me wrong, though... I love basketball, and have played and watched it all of my life. I'll watch the NBA if there's nothing else on... it's just not my preferred game of choice. If others disagree, that's perfectly fine. Given that you've already admitted that you don't follow the NBA, why the need to defend it? We're getting off-topic here... Getting back to the rule, I think line or not, the NCAA is addressing something that, although it is a minor issue, was one of the most obvious issues from last year. Like I said, it's progress for a sport that doesn't have a lot wrong with it... I can't complain with that. Edited October 31, 2009 by Gopher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share Posted October 31, 2009 How? And, what makes you think that hasn't been true in years? Delonte West would be a perfect example, from just a few weeks ago. College is a better product, and outside of the mainstream casual fans, most die-hards would agree. Granted, I don't think NBA players are any more overpaid than other pro athletes, and the thug "factor" or "ratio" probably isn't any greater in the NBA than it is in the NFL. It's a part of all pro sports... impossible to avoid, when you have kids making that much money, and in turn not making smart decisions. The difference is that, in the NFL, every game between contenders matters. When was the last time an NBA regular-season game mattered? They don't, period, and the players know that, which is what makes it a much less attractive/interesting product. Give me BYU/Utah or Indiana/Iowa over Memphis/Charlotte or OKC/Minnesota, any day. It's got nothing to do with the tourney... regular season is better than the NBA as well. Don't get me wrong, though... I love basketball, and have played and watched it all of my life. I'll watch the NBA if there's nothing else on... it's just not my preferred game of choice. If others disagree, that's perfectly fine. Given that you've already admitted that you don't follow the NBA, why the need to defend it? We're getting off-topic here... Getting back to the rule, I think line or not, the NCAA is addressing something that, although it is a minor issue, was one of the most obvious issues from last year. Like I said, it's progress for a sport that doesn't have a lot wrong with it... I can't complain with that. So, you say it's "dominated by over-paid thugs". I say that's an outdated generalization. And to prove me wrong you bring up one guy. Then, for effect, you drop the to imply how anyone who doesn't equate Delonte West being a thug with the league being overrun must be crazy. Why do I say this? Because I listen to far too many people talk about sports. People who don't have any vested interest in the NBA doing well reminding me to, rather than just bring up the same tired arguments, to actually look at what is going on. So I do. And when I do, I find that, in general, the quality of play is better now than it has been in a long time. That selfish ball hog guards are becoming more and more rare. That more and more often, when these guys open their mouths to speak, you find that they're actually reasonably well-spoken. I think Jordan actually wrecked the game. He inspired a generation of players who thought they could do what he could do but really couldn't. It set the league back a long way. But it appears to be back. But everyone has made up their mind. That kid Jennings who bailed on college to play in Europe for a year. People trashed him for that, assuming he was skipping school for all the wrong reasons. Turns out, he comes from a very strong family and his mom moved with him to Europe for the year. They just realized that he was good enough to play in the pros and he didn't need to make someone else money for a year when he could just make his own. I know, what a dick. Now he debuts with nearly a triple double and apparently drives a Ford freaking focus. There's another one of your NBA thugs. Livin' large with moms. You say that anyone who knows both agrees that college is better, but we're going to have to agree to disagree. Because, every time I hear one of the local radio guys who's a fan of the NBA (and you can't be a radio guy around here if you're also not up on college ball) argue with a guy who tries to make your argument, you can tell in about one second which guy really has no idea what he's saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 How? And, what makes you think that hasn't been true in years? Delonte West would be a perfect example, from just a few weeks ago. College is a better product, and outside of the mainstream casual fans, most die-hards would agree. Granted, I don't think NBA players are any more overpaid than other pro athletes, and the thug "factor" or "ratio" probably isn't any greater in the NBA than it is in the NFL. It's a part of all pro sports... impossible to avoid, when you have kids making that much money, and in turn not making smart decisions. The difference is that, in the NFL, every game between contenders matters. When was the last time an NBA regular-season game mattered? They don't, period, and the players know that, which is what makes it a much less attractive/interesting product. Give me BYU/Utah or Indiana/Iowa over Memphis/Charlotte or OKC/Minnesota, any day. It's got nothing to do with the tourney... regular season is better than the NBA as well. Don't get me wrong, though... I love basketball, and have played and watched it all of my life. I'll watch the NBA if there's nothing else on... it's just not my preferred game of choice. If others disagree, that's perfectly fine. Given that you've already admitted that you don't follow the NBA, why the need to defend it? We're getting off-topic here... Getting back to the rule, I think line or not, the NCAA is addressing something that, although it is a minor issue, was one of the most obvious issues from last year. Like I said, it's progress for a sport that doesn't have a lot wrong with it... I can't complain with that. first thing - I am hoops junkie - and I love the NBA and the college game, although my "love" for college is diminishing of late for a few reasons but mainly because the game is diluted and the quality of ball is not where it used to be, the best players jump directly to the NBA or play 1 year - IT IS KILLING the quality of ball in the NCAA - but I do still love it, but more bc I just really enjoy college sports. Gopher, I don't know where to start with your comments to be frank. It reminds of the outdated viewpoint I get from my dad and uncles........... Thugs? the NBA is a league of choir boys compared to the NFL - look it up. The NFL and NBA aren't even remotely close in terms of violent crimes committed. I really don't know where that stereotype comes from, and it is comical to me- is it the cornrows? tatts? I don't mean to jump on you personally I just get tired of the old school viewpoints and generalizations. I get so tired of this, bc you know what?? most of these young kids I am in contact with and play with including kids from the inner city are some of the nicest kids you ever want to meet. MUCH better kids in comparison to me and my punk assed cocky guys I grew up with. Delonte West is bipolar - did you know this? he stopped taking his meds and had guns on him, to my knowledge he committed no crime. I played high school and played a year of juco ball, and I have plenty of friends and buddies at my gym that did as well, a few coach at the AAU and high school level. You now what? while most of them follow and like college hoops, without question the vast majority LOVE the NBA a great deal more. So your comment on fans of the NBA not being knowledgeable or having played the game at a high level could not be further from the truth. Is the NBA season too long? sure, is there too much iso and pick and roll? probably- but the level of play is is freaking high, these are the best athletes on the planet IMO. There are so many minute details, ridiculous plays and overall strategy in a game that hardcore hoops fans can really dig. And the NBA playoffs have been fantastic the past few years. I will always love college hoops, but it is not because of the high level play, bc once the best high school kids started going the NBA- we lost that and it will never be the same. There were quite a few articles lately about how poor fundamentals and overall play has been in the NCAA, actually. anyway, all good - I know you love hoops! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 And the NBA playoffs have been fantastic the past few years. In your opinion, sure they have been. But, the sad fact is that most people don't watch, and couldn't even begin to guess who was in last year's Finals. Do you really think people were excited for LA-Orlando last year, or San Antonio-Detroit a couple of years before that? Give me a break. As far as everything else, no big deal... You have your opinion, I have mine. Neither is right or wrong. I'll continue to prefer NCAA, and you can have the NBA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Going back and re-reading most of this thread, I'd like to make one thing clear... As I said earlier, I'm not implying that the NFL doesn't have just as big of a problem as the NBA (or even bigger). I'll also admit that "thugs" was too strong of a word. I didn't mean to imply that I think that the NBA is filled with a bunch of criminals. What I DO think is a problem is putting that much money in front of what is basically a bunch of kids... The money that they are exposed to, combined with the season being so long, has an impact on the game. There is no doubt that they are the best basketball players on the planet, maybe even the best athletes, as a group. I'm not questioning that. All I am saying is that I have a really hard time watching regular-season NBA games because you never know what you're going to get. In other words, young players who make that much money aren't going to give 100% night in, and night out. When you have that much money, there are too many distractions for a young player to stay focused on an 82-game season. For that reason, as well as the rivalries and the superior post-season product (in my opinion), I MUCH prefer to watch NCAA over the NBA. Don't get me wrong... I'll probably try to go to a couple of NBA games this year because I love basketball. But, I go to those games with the expectation that I'm going to see a performance, rather than a hotly contested sporting event. There really is no such thing as a "must-win" game in the NBA regular season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprofessor Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) Great debate guys .... I too, would take a college hoop game over an NBA game any day. When I'm channel surfing, for the most part, I will bypass the NBA game unless it's close and it's in the 4th quarter. If it's a college game ... I'm staying. I used to be a huge NBA hoops fan but over the last 7-8 years my interest has gone away significantly. For me, the NBA started losing it's appeal when the referee's gave the "stars" all the calls. Almost every night you'll see the referee's dictate the game by giving the team that is behind in the 3rd and 4th quarter the majority of the calls to make the last 5-6 minutes of the game more appealing. The officiating in the NBA left a very bad taste in my mouth and I know it changed the way I looked at the league. II love college sports though, period. Nothing better than attending a great college game. The intensity of a rivalry, the atmosphere, etc. there's just something special about it. Edited November 5, 2009 by theprofessor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoawhoa Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 That's actually a really great point. I hadn't thought of it that way. either you are set as a defender or you charge...isnt that the way it is supposed to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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