Clubfoothead Posted November 13, 2002 Share Posted November 13, 2002 I am soooo sick of the crying around here about ARod. Is he the best player in baseball? I don't really care but the answer is probably yes. I say the writers got it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 He got the gold glove He got the silver slugger award He was voted the best by the baseball players themselves He was voted the best by the coaches He broke the record (his old one) for homeruns by a shortstop ... He led the league in homeruns He had fewer errors So how does he NOT deserve it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 18, 2002 Author Share Posted November 18, 2002 Grits and Shins:He got the gold glove He got the silver slugger award He was voted the best by the baseball players themselves He was voted the best by the coaches He broke the record (his old one) for homeruns by a shortstop ... He led the league in homeruns He had fewer errors So how does he NOT deserve it? 72-90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 Clubfoothead: 72-90 So what .... what does that have to do with determining a players value to their team? Does ARod pitch for the Rangers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 18, 2002 Author Share Posted November 18, 2002 Value to the team? What is the standard? They'd have been worse without him? The'd also have lost 3 more games without Hideki Irabu. He get your vote for AL Cy Young? wink He can't be the most valuable player in the American League unless finishing 31 games out and in last place in the West is considered something of value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 Most Valuable Player. Where does it say that the MVP is on a winning team? If the hands-down best short stop in the game and arguably the best player in the game is not "Most" valuable then I don't understand the definition. I don't even think Tejada is the MVP on his team ... I think Zito was more valuable to their team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 18, 2002 Author Share Posted November 18, 2002 Grits and Shins: I don't even think Tejada is the MVP on his team ... I think Zito was more valuable to their team. Whole different debate since pitchers get the Cy Young. Just going off of baseball memory (which hardly accurate) but has a pitcher ever won MVP. I agree ARod is the best player in basebal but what did he bring of value to his TEAM. Nothing but a bunch of individual awards and stats and 72 wins and 90 losses. If we were debating Soriano vs. Tejada fine, but I'm just saying the MVP can't be Rodriguez. What did all of ARod's individual accomplishments bring to the Rangers? A last place division finish so if that's the goal, then he's your MVP. I think there is a better argument that Soriano got srewed than Rodriguez. At least we both agree ARod's the best PLAYER in baseball, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 It would be hard to argue against ARod being the best player in the game right now. It is not ARod's fault the Rangers lost as many games as they did just as Tejada is not the reason the A's won all their games. ARod played his position and played it well ... he contributed more to his team than any other player did to their team ... it just wasn't enough to overcome bad pitching. That's not ARod's fault and does not diminish his accomplishments or his value. Should they have given the gold glove to somebody else because ARod earned on a losing team? Should they have given the silve slugger award to somebody else because he earned on a losing team? The Rangers scored a bunch of runs ... and ARod was a big part of that. ARod also did his part at short stop and only had 10 errors on the year. In addition he started all but a few games. What did Tejada do that made him more valuable to his team than ARod is to his team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 And BTW ... the A's didn't look significantly different with Giambi at short stop did they? How many short stops in the league could you have put in Tejada's place and the A's still make the playoffs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 18, 2002 Author Share Posted November 18, 2002 Grits and Shins[QB How many short stops in the league could you have put in Tejada's place and the A's still make the playoffs?[/QB] But you could have duct taped a mit to the left wing of a chicken and the Rangers would have still finished last in the division... I won't defend the person voted to be MVP, but I will defend the position that the MVP cannot be on a losing team. I'd bet ARod would have given up all the stats and had just an average year for an average shortstop if it would have meant making the playoffs. If Rodriguez would say yes to this question then he's not the MVP. Baseball is a team sport so to me, in order to even look at an individual player's stats, you have to consider how the team did 1st, even when talking about the MVP. Like I said before, you could get one of spain's chickens tape a glove to it's wing and put it out on the field and the Rangers would still suck. His play, even if it did elevate the play of those around him, did not elevate it enough. He's just not the MVP if your team does not make the post season, IMHO. You want to say Tejada should not have been MVP you might be right but that does not make the MVP Rodriguez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 You say baseball is a team sport ... so what should ARod done different to be a "better" team player? Hit less homeruns? Have more errors? Baseball is all about stats ... if the MVP is NOT quantified by stats then how do you decide who the MVP is? A popularity contest? Or does ARod simply make too much money to be the MVP? If ARod is indeed the best player in baseball how can he not me the most valuable? If ARod and Tejada played for teams that ended the year with the same exact record would you still have given the award to Tejada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 18, 2002 Author Share Posted November 18, 2002 Blitz, you have to look at what the team did first, then look at the individual's stats. Again, my only point here is that whatever it is you bring to the table, if your team does not make the post season you brought nothing valuable to the team. That's JMHO, but the folks who give out the award agree with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 18, 2002 Author Share Posted November 18, 2002 Grits and Shins: If ARod and Tejada played for teams that ended the year with the same exact record would you still have given the award to Tejada? Oh, and yes ARod would be the MVP. The first thing I look at is team record. If they both make the playoffs, then I look at individual stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 Clubfoothead:Blitz, you have to look at what the team did first, then look at the individual's stats. Again, my only point here is that whatever it is you bring to the table, if your team does not make the post season you brought nothing valuable to the team. That's JMHO, but the folks who give out the award agree with me. How does how the team did diminish the contribution of an individual player. If I hit a homerun in a game is it any less of a homerun when we lose versus when we win? Should we have disregarded McQuire when he broke the homerun record because he played for a losing team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Originally posted by Grits and Shins:How does how the team did diminish the contribution of an individual player. If I hit a homerun in a game is it any less of a homerun when we lose versus when we win? Should we have disregarded McQuire when he broke the homerun record because he played for a losing team? 1. The accomplishment is diminished when compared to the accomplishments of players playing for a winning team. 2. Yes, it is less of a home run because it did not contribute to a win. Compare a home run in the top of the 3rd to a home run that wins a game in the bottom of the 9th. I'll let you tell me which of those two is the more valuable home run. 3. No McGuire was going for an individual record, not an award. I say for this award, the team needs to have a winning record. This has been fun but we just won't be able to agree. I need to focus on improving the $hitty 2-6 I've gone in the last two weeks of the weekly Blitz than continue a debate that cannot be resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Clubfoothead: This has been fun but we just won't be able to agree. I need to focus on improving the $hitty 2-6 I've gone in the last two weeks of the weekly Blitz than continue a debate that cannot be resolved. In other words, you're wrong wink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh B Tool Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 ARod is the best shortstop in baseball, on a team with the worst pitching staff in baseball. He can't pitch Club therefore he, like Sammy and many before him don't get the votes from the scribes. If ARod were on the A's with their pitching staff he would've got every first place vote, hands down. Since he's on a last place team that has the likes of you and I pitching for them he's considered less valuable. For the life of me I don't know why in a team sport an eagle is thought of as a turkey just because 90% of the other players around him are hokies. That and the contract issue makes people think he should be able to pitch too wink Oh yeah, I think the last pitcher to win the Cy and MVP was Texas's own Rocket(though not with the Rangers :P ), but I could be wrong. Believe Koufax did it also and maybe Pedro?. Not sure on Pedro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 21, 2002 Author Share Posted November 21, 2002 Thanks Sha-KaKa, for two days I was able to leave this alone and let Blitz have the last word. eek! I just want to know, besides a bunch of awesome individual stats, what did he bring of VALUE to the Rangers because it certainly wasn't wins ? I can buy Soriano got screwed since he had one of the best seasons ever for a second baseman and it mattered. I don't mind the money ARod makes so that is not why I couldn't vote for him. I just think that since the ultimate goal is to win, no matter how good his personal stats are they didn't generate the desired end results: winning. BTW, in the AL Eckersley was the last pitcher to win the MVP in 1992. In the NL you have to go back all the way to 1968 when Bob Gibson won it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Where is it written that the only players to bring value to their teams are those players on winning teams? I suspect the Rangers have a greater negative impact if ARod is removed from the team than the A's feel if Tejada is removed from the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 21, 2002 Author Share Posted November 21, 2002 In little league, Blitz is right. This is the major leagues. What is the point of playing professional sports? To WIN. The Rangers didn't so no matter what any individual did on that team they should not be the MVP because they did not further the ultimate goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Clubfoothead:In little league, Blitz is right. This is the major leagues. What is the point of playing professional sports? To WIN. The Rangers didn't so no matter what any individual did on that team they should not be the MVP because they did not further the ultimate goal. So all stats from players on losing teams should be removed from the books then? Seems to me like the most valuable player to a team is the one that hurts the most when removed from the team. Take Tejada from the A's and it doesn't impact that team ... just like taking Giambi from that team had no impact. You can plug any short stop into that slot and get the same results. This is your most valuable guy? How do you measure a player's value to his team if it isn't by his individual stats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 21, 2002 Author Share Posted November 21, 2002 Grits and Shins: Clubfoothead:In little league, Blitz is right. This is the major leagues. What is the point of playing professional sports? To WIN. The Rangers didn't so no matter what any individual did on that team they should not be the MVP because they did not further the ultimate goal. So all stats from players on losing teams should be removed from the books then? Seems to me like the most valuable player to a team is the one that hurts the most when removed from the team. Take Tejada from the A's and it doesn't impact that team ... just like taking Giambi from that team had no impact. You can plug any short stop into that slot and get the same results. This is your most valuable guy? How do you measure a player's value to his team if it isn't by his individual stats?This is some tasty chum. The stats count even if you play for a $hitty team, jsut not for the league MVP award. Again, if you ask me Soriano is the MVP not Tejada. I already said ARod is the most valuable Ranger but not the most valuable player in the league because his skills did nothing to make the team a winner. You want me to say he's the MVP, then they need to make it to the post season. If he could get this bunch of spares to the playoffs then there would be no argument, he'd be the most valuable player in the league, until then he's just the best player in baseball on a team that sucks. Edit: you could replace ARod with Rick Burleson in the shape he is in today and they'd still finish last, in other words you remove ARod from the mix and the Rangers remain the worst team in the AL West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 And if you take Soriano or Tejada off their teams how do their teams do ... do they make the playoffs? If so then what did it matter? The MVP is an INDIVIDUAL award. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted November 21, 2002 Author Share Posted November 21, 2002 No, the MVP is awarded to an individual. How do you decide? That is what we are going back and forth about. I say you decide who is the most valuable based upon individual stats COMBINED with the team's record. You say it should be based on a player's individual stats alone. Just a difference of opinions on how you decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 So by your train of logic great players that never played on winning teams should not be voted into the Hall of Fame? Their individual stats meant nothing because they were all achieved while their team was losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.