muck Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 (edited) $1-2 no limit cash game. Pots in excess of $100 are common. Biggest pot in the five or so hours I had been playing was for about $500. We'd probably had two or three of that size in the five hrs I played. My tablemates probably view me as a being a bit better than the average of the other guys at the table (not the best, not the worst) and as a guy who likes to see cheap flops and will get out of the way when I don't have anything worth playing. Two hands to discuss: ..................................................... Hand 1: We've been playing for about 2hrs. A seat opens up and a new guy sits down with lots of chips. He promptly loses half of them on some real crazy plays. He has won only one hand (the hand immediately prior to the hand below) with pocket kings. He is the worst player at the table and everyone but him knows it. So, here's the hand... Six limpers. Crappy player is in position. Pot is at $12. I have a J 10 offsuit and will be the next to last to act. Flop comes J 8 3 rainbow. Crappy player leads out with $50. Fold. Fold. Fold. I call. Guy to my left calls (he is a good player). Guy to his left calls (he is also a good player). The other two guys are at least as good as I am, probably better. Everyone knows the crappy guy is a crappy player. I'm not liking the two other callers and figure one has two pair, an over pair or trips. Pot has $212 in it. Turn comes a 6 rainbow ... no flush options ... Crappy player leads out with $50 again. I fold figuring that one of the two other players must have something to have called the $50 from the previous round of betting. Next guy over folds. I'm a little surprised. The crappy player gets called by the last guy to act after he thinks about it for a while. Pot is now at $312. River comes 4. Crappy player leads out with $100 and gets called after quite a bit of thinking. Pot is $512. Crappy player turns over A K rainbow. The other guy called him down with a pair of threes. The crappy player was gone about five hands later... The guy to my left that folded on the turn says he had a straight draw he was working on (i.e., he had a 9 10). So, I folded the winning hand on the turn. The guy who won said that if I or the other guy had called on the turn, that he would have folded in a heartbeat. I lost out on a $500 pot, but don't really see any other way I could have played it...except possibly raising the $50 bet on the flop and trying to take it down then and there (or at least getting the crappy player to commit more of his chips chasing a dream). Thoughts? ..................................................... Hand #2: Table is full, five of us have been sitting together for about 5hrs. The crappy player from before is long gone. Four are pretty new to the table and I don't have much of a read on any of them except one guy seems very tight and one guy commented that he wanted to go home as he pushed his final $60 on the table in some pre-flop action a few hands prior (where he subsequently sucked out a straight on the river to triple up). I had lost about $100 on that hand... Six limpers total. I'm in mid position with a Q and 6 of hearts. Pot is $12. I'm sitting on about $175. Other stack sizes range from $100 to $400 or so. Three of the limpers are relatively new to the table. Flop comes K hearts, 8 hearts and 4 clubs. I'm drawing to the nut flush. Action comes (i) check, (ii) $10, (iii) call, (iv) I bump it to $20 to try to get rid of other bettors but not so much as to tell the world I'm on a flush draw, (v) fold, (vi) call the $20 ... coming back around ... (i) fold, (ii) call and (iii) fold. Down to three players. The caller who is the first to act has about $200 and has been at the table with me for about five hours (he's pretty tight). I figure he's on mid pair or flush draw. The guy behind me has almost exactly what I have in his stack and I don't really have much of a read on him, other than he is the guy who rivered the straight to stay alive a few hands prior. Pot is now $82. Turn comes 10 clubs. Now two flush draw opportunities. Hearts and clubs. Action comes: (i) check, (ii) I fire out $30, (iii) call ... (i) fold (apparently he missed his flush or decided his middle pair wasn't good). Its down to me and the 'rivered straight' guy. I do not have a read on him, other than I think he may want to just go home -- its about 4am. Pot is about $140. River comes Q clubs. Club flush is a possibility... I'm first to act and while I only have a pair of queens, I bet $30 hoping that he thinks that either (i) I made a club flush after having with something like the 8 and ? clubs for a middle pair on the flop, (ii) I have two pair, or (iii) trips. Or, he's been chasing a heart flush and missed. Or has a lower pair. He raises to $60. I go all in for the $30 to cover his raise, plus another $75. He thinks about it for some time and eventually calls. He takes the pot with a pair of kings (jack kicker). He tells me he was afraid that his jack wasn't good (that we both had a pair of kings). My thoughts are that I should have pushed all in on the river forcing him to either fold or call a $135 bet. But, other than that, I'm not sure how I could have played this any differently. This can be a weakness of mine in cash games ... not betting enough as the pot grows to really put pressure on the other players... What do the poker sages around here think about how I could have played it differently? Edited August 3, 2008 by muck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bring Back Pat!!! Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 1st hand- you need to raise that flop with top pair, try to end the hand right there. 2nd hand- don't play Q6 from middle position. Can't really comment on the play because you shouldn't have been involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted August 3, 2008 Author Share Posted August 3, 2008 Hand 1 = I was trying to suck chips from the crappy player and didn't expect either of the two guys behind me to call. When they did, I wanted out. Hand 2 = Cheap flop ... $2 to see more cards was a good play most of the night ... lots of 'friendly flops' at the game (not sure why) ... earlier in the night, I was letting a lot of hands like this go into the muck (Q 7 suited, etc) only to have flopped two pair or flush draw opportunities where it would have only cost me $2 to get the flop ... so, after having missed several of those, and these 'friendly flops' continuing to come, I tried to play quite a few when I had "straight possibilities" (even if they weren't suited or actual connectors, like J 9, etc), "suited hole cards" or at least one face card. Again, if I hadn't flopped two more hearts, I would have been out of the hand quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted August 3, 2008 Author Share Posted August 3, 2008 You do understand that you confused the other player in your #2 scenario, yeah? I think I know how, but please 'splain in case I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 Hand 1 - What are stack sizes? Most likely i lay down here. You have top pair, medium kicker. You are facing a bet that is 4 times the size of the pot with two solid players left to act behind you. You say crappy player is in position but then say he leads out. This is contradictory unless you left out the table, including yourself, checking the flop to him before he leads out. I will assume you meant that he is out of position. From your description, your top pair is likely ahead of this guys range, but if you only call, and get callers behind you, as is what happened, they likely have better hands than you and they are also in position on you. If you raise here, then IMO you can only get called if they have a better hand than you. Neither a very good prospect and all options leading you to a very difficult scenario. This is where stack size is important. If you have a short stack, say under $150 at this point, then I may well just shove over the top on the flop, but anything bigger than that and I probably just lay the hand down knowing that I am likely to find a much better scenario to get my money in. Hand 2 - Fold it preflop. Doesn't matter if it is 2 bucks, you are in bad position with a weak holding. Contrary to what you say, you are not drawing to the nut flush as any heart draw with the ace is drawing to a better flush than you. As played, I don;t think a raise on the flop is warranted. You want the extra callers as you are on a draw and want to be getting the correct odds to not only draw, but also get paid off when you do hit. The only other way I could see playig this is to raise more than the min raise, say to about 35 total. If you get two callers, this puts about $125 in the pot with you having $140 left, basically a pot sized bet to shove with on the turn if you hit or to semi-bluff with making it look like you are blocking draws from coming against a made hand. Regarding your comments about folding these types of hands only to see them hit is results oriented thinking, and it is that which gets many players into trouble. A garbage hand is a garbage hand. Now, if you were on the button with the Q6 and there were 4 or 5 limpers in front of you then I have no problem coming along, but from out of position, just toss it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted August 4, 2008 Author Share Posted August 4, 2008 Hand 1 = You are correct. Crappy player was out of position. The two good players behind me had much larger stacks than I (I was at about $250, the guy immediately to my left was at about $350 and the guy to his left was over $500). Hand 2 = good point ... avoid 'results oriented thinking' ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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