Duchess Jack Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 (edited) What would it take to abolish the UAW or at the very least start a car company w/o the UAW? In this day and age, what does the UAW think that the auto companies will do to their employees if the UAW wasn't there. And how come none of the candidates have focused on 'buy American' as one of the things we need to do. I'd like to see one of them set up a webpage with companies that can be ordered from that were strictly American. It would be neat if the site can record your purchases and the government could give a tax rebate to folk who focused on buying from American companies who make their products in America. Heck - I'd like to see some company set up that makes things not typically built in America (like game systems) in America - kinda like a supermarkets knockoff brands. Edited October 13, 2008 by Duchess Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Man, this oughtta be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millerx Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Man, this oughtta be good. do you mind if I grab the seat next to ya?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 do you mind if I grab the seat next to ya?? well, heck. Now I am even more curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 toyota Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 well, heck. Now I am even more curious. I'm just thinking it will disolve into another pro/anti-union flame-fest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millerx Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 (edited) I'm just thinking it will disolve into another pro/anti-union flame-fest. Sounds to me like you're calling everyone flamers! Is a flame-fest like a ghey orgy? Edited October 13, 2008 by millerx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Sounds to me like you're calling everyone flamers! Is a flame-fest like a ghey orgy? Uh, sure. Pics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 I'm just thinking it will disolve into another pro/anti-union flame-fest. I can see where unions are or have been useful, but the UAW reminds me of one of those fat guys who grow too large and lumbering to fit out their bedroom door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperCharger Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The UAW will go away when the last American auto-maker collapses. Which shouldn't be too much longer. Japanese car companies and cars are superior in everyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moneymakers Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The UAW will go away when the last American auto-maker collapses. Which shouldn't be too much longer. Japanese car companies and cars are superior in everyway. Chevy makes a good truck. Me thinks you are a terrorist anti american musluum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 toyota Yep. The Japanese car companies already run assembly plants here with non-union labor and from what I have heard, they treat their employees well. When you think about it, the only reason unions appeared in the first place was because employers were a bunch of twats, screwing people down as hard as they could. Modern employers on the whole do not fall into that trap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 Yep. The Japanese car companies already run assembly plants here with non-union labor and from what I have heard, they treat their employees well. When you think about it, the only reason unions appeared in the first place was because employers were a bunch of twats, screwing people down as hard as they could. Modern employers on the whole do not fall into that trap. Exactly, so the unions in this case have lived long past their usefulness and are the main thing standing between success and failure of American car companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperCharger Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Chevy makes a good truck. Me thinks you are a terrorist anti american musluum. Unions are socialist and unamerican. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Exactly, so the unions in this case have lived long past their usefulness and are the main thing standing between success and failure of American car companies. That is only the case if the employer is willing to treat the employees well. I have zero confidence that Chrysler, GM and Ford would do so with no union. That said, the practices introduced over the years by the union are clearly destructive. IMO, the best course of action would be to wind up the big three and let the market replace them....if it can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Unions are socialist and unamerican. They would never have existed without bad employers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Exactly, so the unions in this case have lived long past their usefulness and are the main thing standing between success and failure of American car companies. toyota has publicly stated that they wont put a plant in mi because of the unions. Unions are socialist and unamerican. +1 They would never have existed without bad employers. +11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 (edited) As I have said before, shop employees, yes the union, build the cars, but they don't design or market them. Over the years, more in the past but even recently, the Execs get the bonus's for putting out a product that is woefully inferior to foreign competition. Bonus??? For what??? Oh, then maybe the worker should be to blame for shoddy workmanship? Maybe, but quality standards are also at the exec level. I remember many years ago (~20???) some designer ordered millions if not billions of supposed SAE bolts from China, a country who at the time did not use international standards for this type of thing. Turned out these bolts had an excess of Boron that actually weakens the bolt but is cheap. All the bolts used had to be replaced and the inventory had to be purged. Cost savings=negative millions of $$$ instead of a savings. The UAW still serves a purpose. I won't deny that Subaru, Toyota, et. al. have been successful w/ non-union shops. I knew many laid off GM employees who got a shot at working at a Saturn plant, non-union, and were very happy. The UAW shares the blame of the US automakers demise, but I still believe and always will that the execs rode the wave of success w/ the union guy, but rode it long after disaster hit. The union worker did NOT have that option/advantage. YES.....I am a proud union worker! Those of you not in unions, believe it or not, yall benefit from unions indirectly. Safety, hourly wages, bene's, etc. are based off of union wages as a tool for appeasing workers in a non-union setting. Imagine a USA w/o unions. Is that what yall really want??? It would be chaos! Think that is BS, watch an obscure movie called "China Blue". Or at least watch/read "Grapes of Wrath". How about "The Jungle"? Last thoughts..... Unions are dieing! Sad actually as the average worker, union or not, has many things today that never would have had w/o unions. Today the average union membership is less than 1/3 of what it was in the 50's. Why....we lost manufacturing in this country. Losing the ability to manufacture is scarry. Unions changed this country for the better .No one can argue that. Whether they are still viable is arguable, but not in my mind, Unions = Unions validate a free economy. Most of our "GREAT" industrialists of the late 19th and early 20th century were not interested in making a great USA....they were profiteers! They just wanted to make $$$$! Nothing wrong with that, per say, but thanks to the unions for making them send some of their bucks back to the worker. Once again.......dig deep into your thoughts, for a moment. Reject your anti-union desires, and consider America today w/o ever having unions! Where would we be??? Edited October 13, 2008 by rocknrobn26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Yep. The Japanese car companies already run assembly plants here with non-union labor and from what I have heard, they treat their employees well. When you think about it, the only reason unions appeared in the first place was because employers were a bunch of twats, screwing people down as hard as they could. Modern employers on the whole do not fall into that trap. Holy crap! I agree with Ursa. As I have said before, shop employees, yes the union, build the cars, but they don't design or market them. Over the years, more in the past but even recently, the Execs get the bonus's for putting out a product that is woefully inferior to foreign competition. Bonus??? For what??? Oh, then maybe the worker should be to blame for shoddy workmanship? Maybe, but quality standards are also at the exec level. I remember many years ago (~20???) some designer ordered millions if not billions of supposed SAE bolts from China, a country who at the time did not use international standards for this type of thing. Turned out these bolts had an excess of Boron that actually weakens the bolt but is cheap. All the bolts used had to be replaced and the inventory had to be purged. Cost savings=negative millions of $$$ instead of a savings. The UAW still serves a purpose. I won't deny that Subaru, Toyota, et. al. have been successful w/ non-union shops. I knew many laid off GM employees who got a shot at working at a Saturn plant, non-union, and were very happy. The UAW shares the blame of the US automakers demise, but I still believe and always will that the execs rode the wave of success w/ the union guy, but rode it long after disaster hit. The union worker did NOT have that option/advantage. YES.....I am a proud union worker! Those of you not in unions, believe it or not, yall benefit from unions indirectly. Safety, hourly wages, bene's, etc. are based off of union wages as a tool for appeasing workers in a non-union setting. Imagine a USA w/o unions. Is that what yall really want??? It would be chaos! Think that is BS, watch an obscure movie called "China Blue". Or at least watch/read "Grapes of Wrath". How about "The Jungle"? Last thoughts..... Unions are dieing! Sad actually as the average worker, union or not, has many things today that never would have had w/o unions. Today the average union membership is less than 1/3 of what it was in the 50's. Why....we lost manufacturing in this country. Losing the ability to manufacture is scarry. Unions changed this country for the better .No one can argue that. Whether they are still viable is arguable, but not in my mind, Unions = Unions validate a free economy. Most of our "GREAT" industrialists of the late 19th and early 20th century were not interested in making a great USA....they were profiteers! They just wanted to make $$$$! Nothing wrong with that, per say, but thanks to the unions for making them send some of their bucks back to the worker. Once again.......dig deep into your thoughts, for a moment. Reject your anti-union desires, and consider America today w/o ever having unions! Where would we be??? Unions served their purpose at one time, but serve no valuable purpose now (in general - there may be a few specific instances where they are still needed). My limited exposure to unions in the warehousing and driving industries has been a very bad experience for both company management and the employees. It's been cheaper to pay out leases and move facilities to non-union areas than try to absorb the lack of productivity unions bring. Teaching unions are a hugh part of our current education problem. Unions limit accountability to the point that a teacher can not be fired unless they eat their students. I'm sure rocknrobn and his wife would be embarrassed by some of the specimens our kids call "teachers." When poor performing employees in any field can not be termed, the whole profession suffers because the bar gets lower and lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Holy crap! I agree with Ursa. Unions served their purpose at one time, but serve no valuable purpose now (in general - there may be a few specific instances where they are still needed). My limited exposure to unions in the warehousing and driving industries has been a very bad experience for both company management and the employees. It's been cheaper to pay out leases and move facilities to non-union areas than try to absorb the lack of productivity unions bring. Teaching unions are a hugh part of our current education problem. Unions limit accountability to the point that a teacher can not be fired unless they eat their students. I'm sure rocknrobn and his wife would be embarrassed by some of the specimens our kids call "teachers." When poor performing employees in any field can not be termed, the whole profession suffers because the bar gets lower and lower. I do not intend to make this a pissing match, but to put ALL union teachers in a bag and call it a problem is wrong! Unions do NOT limit accountability. They actually enforce it. I appreciate your comment about the wife and I being embarrassed, but I can truly say I have known 90% good teachers, 8% boarder line, and 2% Bad. Unions do NOT protect that 2%. They merely provide a venue for their legal rights. I can't measure or comment on your experience, but in my experience, we always held a high standard. The union just provided a venue for a teacher to get their "day in court", if you will. I have been a factor in several firings of teachers. I had no regrets. they were bad! We (union teachers) do a great job at weeding out the bad seeds. I take pride in that. I can site many cases of firing bad teachers. Can you support the lack there of?? If so, I'd love to hear the stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Holy crap! I agree with Ursa. The sky is falling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 As I have said before, shop employees, yes the union, build the cars, but they don't design or market them. Over the years, more in the past but even recently, the Execs get the bonus's for putting out a product that is woefully inferior to foreign competition. Bonus??? For what??? Oh, then maybe the worker should be to blame for shoddy workmanship? Maybe, but quality standards are also at the exec level. I remember many years ago (~20???) some designer ordered millions if not billions of supposed SAE bolts from China, a country who at the time did not use international standards for this type of thing. Turned out these bolts had an excess of Boron that actually weakens the bolt but is cheap. All the bolts used had to be replaced and the inventory had to be purged. Cost savings=negative millions of $$$ instead of a savings. The UAW still serves a purpose. I won't deny that Subaru, Toyota, et. al. have been successful w/ non-union shops. I knew many laid off GM employees who got a shot at working at a Saturn plant, non-union, and were very happy. The UAW shares the blame of the US automakers demise, but I still believe and always will that the execs rode the wave of success w/ the union guy, but rode it long after disaster hit. The union worker did NOT have that option/advantage. YES.....I am a proud union worker! Those of you not in unions, believe it or not, yall benefit from unions indirectly. Safety, hourly wages, bene's, etc. are based off of union wages as a tool for appeasing workers in a non-union setting. Imagine a USA w/o unions. Is that what yall really want??? It would be chaos! Think that is BS, watch an obscure movie called "China Blue". Or at least watch/read "Grapes of Wrath". How about "The Jungle"? Last thoughts..... Unions are dieing! Sad actually as the average worker, union or not, has many things today that never would have had w/o unions. Today the average union membership is less than 1/3 of what it was in the 50's. Why....we lost manufacturing in this country. Losing the ability to manufacture is scarry. Unions changed this country for the better .No one can argue that. Whether they are still viable is arguable, but not in my mind, Unions = Unions validate a free economy. Most of our "GREAT" industrialists of the late 19th and early 20th century were not interested in making a great USA....they were profiteers! They just wanted to make $$$$! Nothing wrong with that, per say, but thanks to the unions for making them send some of their bucks back to the worker. Once again.......dig deep into your thoughts, for a moment. Reject your anti-union desires, and consider America today w/o ever having unions! Where would we be??? Great post. Those who rant against unions should read history. Googling Mother Jones would be a good place to start. The government used to send soldiers to shoot unionized workers.......yet they stayed unionized. We all owe them a HUGH debt. All that said, I still say if employers behaved well there would never have been unions. Imbalance of benefit makes for conditions that give rise to people banding together - this is a natural consequence. If all are treated well, there is no need to band together in opposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Can you support the lack there of?? If so, I'd love to hear the stories. Unfortunately, I am personally aware of three cases with teachers. Two involved physical abuse (one sexual) and one my kid had for about a week until we discovered how unqualified she was to teach. I showed the principal an email she wrote to me - it was abusive, unprofessional and made Yuke seem like Whitman. He said he'd tried to fire her in the past, but the "union stepped in." Several of my kids' friends report that she calls the kids things like "little poopy." One of the other cases involved my high school chem teacher. He got one of my friends pregnant (she was doing it for the grade) - her parents went through the courts and proved the kid was his. He kept his job and still works in the district. My 8th grade English teacher physically beat a kid (sprained arm, bruised face) in front of the class because the kid mouthed off to him. The teacher did get suspended and didn't teach again (to my knowledge), but was given a promotion to the district office. I also had a math teacher in jr high that could not do math. She was nice enough, but should have been fired for incompetence nonetheless. I don't think all teachers are bad - not even close. My kids and I have had many wonderful teachers over the years. I do have a hugh problem with any organization that makes it difficult to fire people that desperately deserve it. The union we've had experience with at work was much the same. One guy was convicted of felony assault and we couldn't fire him in the interest of preventing a similar episode at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 (edited) Unfortunately, I am personally aware of three cases with teachers. Two involved physical abuse (one sexual) and one my kid had for about a week until we discovered how unqualified she was to teach. I showed the principal an email she wrote to me - it was abusive, unprofessional and made Yuke seem like Whitman. He said he'd tried to fire her in the past, but the "union stepped in." Several of my kids' friends report that she calls the kids things like "little poopy." No excuses, but this a criminal case. What happened there??? One of the other cases involved my high school chem teacher. He got one of my friends pregnant (she was doing it for the grade) - her parents went through the courts and proved the kid was his. He kept his job and still works in the district. Again a criminal case!!! Statutory rape at a minimum!! Where are the courts?? These are not union issues. My 8th grade English teacher physically beat a kid (sprained arm, bruised face) in front of the class because the kid mouthed off to him. The teacher did get suspended and didn't teach again (to my knowledge), but was given a promotion to the district office. If he was removed from the classroom then all is well and does not prove union protection. Quite the opposite. The board re-positioning him has nothing to do w/ union protection! I also had a math teacher in jr high that could not do math. She was nice enough, but should have been fired for incompetence nonetheless. I don't think all teachers are bad - not even close. My kids and I have had many wonderful teachers over the years. I do have a hugh problem with any organization that makes it difficult to fire people that desperately deserve it. The union we've had experience with at work was much the same. One guy was convicted of felony assault and we couldn't fire him in the interest of preventing a similar episode at work. With that last comment it seems as though you would like to circumvent "Due Process", a right all us deserve and are granted by the constitution. I don't think you want to do that....do you??? Edited October 14, 2008 by rocknrobn26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 ... Unions do NOT limit accountability. They actually enforce it. ... Sorry RR, but this is patently and demonstrably false. Unions, like politicians, have one concern - their membership and continuing power. What is the teacher's union's incentive to hold teachers accountable? The millwrights, IBEW, plumbers and pipefitters, sure. Those guys work for a union and if they're lousy then the union won't get calls for its members to work. UAW, teamsters, NEA - I ain't buying my friend. A couple links I found with a Yahoo! search: I don't know about the accuracy of the links, but I'm sure if these don't suit you some verifiable stuff can be found. Like JN said, and you agreed, the vast majority are (at the very least) competent. But the NEA has one and only job - protection of its members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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