US Education System

[Deathpig]

I'm not saying do away with all the math course, I'm saying once you get past the basics make them elective classes. There is no sense in making a guy that isn't going to use geometry take a geometry course. I agree with you regarding basic home finance. Science, not so much. When I was in high school we had to have 4 science credits. Typically one was a general science class that was an introduction to the various other courses. I also took two years of physics and a year of biology. I"m still trying to figure out why I had to take biology, other than they didn't offer another physics course and I didn't want to take chemistry. Hell in college I had to take biology and chemistry along with my 3 physics courses. I never use biology or chemistry. Why did I have to take it? Make kids in high school take an introduction class that introduces them to the different sciences, and then only require them to take one other science course of their choosing rather than three more. If they want to take more great. If we did that the ones that are actually going to use it would actually learn more and the ones that aren't could learn something else that they might use.

 

I went to high school nearly 20 years ago, so take this with a grain of salt, but my memory of the weird course requirements had to do with general college requirements for admission and it seemed like the high schools basically modeled their course offerings to match those. Hence, you had every student forced to take biology, chemistry, physics, and things like trigonometry and pre-calculus. I remember that if you had a college major in mind, you could alter your high school coursework a bit (I wanted to major in English, so I only had to take up to Algebra 2, but had more English classes instead). I have no idea how much this has changed in the last two decades, though.

[rocknrobn26]

One more time as I have stated these facts more times than I can remember:

All of these facts are about Illinois and Illinois only, as I have nothing to go by for other states:

Tenure:

Tenure is part of IL law.

Typically tenure takes 4 years.

It does not guarantee a job (if one's position is eliminated there is recourse, but then it gets complicated...more than I choose to type).

It does guarantee due process (The LAW was written to protect against capricious admin behavior), that is PROVE YOUR CASE! But no more.

If an admin wants to fire someone, YES he/she has hoops to jump thru, and sadly most admins won't do it. Too much hassle? Not sure, but don't blame the Union for doing their job. Blame the admins for NOT doing their job. Bottom line... firing a teacher w/ tenure is not hard...cross the 'T's' and dot the 'I's', that's all. Read above. I have been on the firing side many times. No regrets.

Unions are there to defend the tenure law. Due Process. Nothing more or less!

 

Unions:

In IL ALL SCHOOLS ARE REQUIRED BY LAW TO HAVE A BARGAINING AGENT! Be that a union or just a group delegated by the school by popular vote to represent them. Therefore all schools have a contract per say by State Law Mandate. Go ahead and quibble about the unions forcing the law, I wasn't there. It's possible, but the State (IMHO)didn't want to deal w/ each individual to contract a salary. Of course Unions make it easier, but it is NOT REQUIRED. Bargaining agent is the key word. A move that I believe is prudent. That's why all ( I think) schools to my knowledge have a salary schedule.

There is a Fair Share Option wherein a member can opt out of the Union, get a reduction of dues, but can't vote, but are protected in every other way a full share member is protected.

 

Everything above is a fact(s). Except for the lone bolded part.

There is probably more that I could add, but too many of you would rather bash than read. Fine, whatever.

 

Just read my facts. If you bash me, it's prolly cause you didn't READ THE FACTS!

If you can "refudiate" (Sarah's words) anything, let me know.

Just state facts...not opinion.

[millerx]

I agreed with many points that have been made hear, but I thought I'd interject one other point that hinders our educational system today. The lack of authority that has been slowly taken away from the educators in our schools. They are (many times) no longer respected by the students and can not discipline or provide direction for fear of administrative repercussions.

 

Many people blame that it is the parents lack involvement that is causing the decline of the U.S. school system. However, I suggest that, in part because of our hyper politically correct society, we have demonized those simply doing what was needed only to protect the students feelings. Sometimes a kid needs a kick in the butt (not necessarily literally) but our society has become a bunch of pansies. The kids know that the teacher has little to no course of action when "called out" for doing something wrong. They will simply ignore a teacher because of this and because they know they can get the teacher in trouble.

 

I'm not saying that the lack of parent involvement isn't part of the problem... it is. But some of it is too much parent involvement. Let the teachers and the schools do their jobs and stay out of there way unless it is absolutely necessary. Follow the KISS acronym (keep it simple stupid). Keep in contact with your kids teachers, talk to your kids every day about how there day was, follow up with them on what weakness they have and supplement those weaknesses. Anyway, that is just IMHO.

[1rosado1]

The problem isnt the money or teachers. It is the children, ofcourse not all of them but a good majority of them. Look at what the government has done, they lowered the passing grade for kids which means that kids can slack just a little bit more if they want and still pass. It is insane to blame the teachers they are doing their jobs but if kids dont want to learn, what can they do? Lets not forget about the parents (the main part in a child's development) that have to know their place. The worst thing ever established is home schooling, it absolutely destroys kids no social ability at all. People have to stop saying put money into education, it all matters on the kid and what he/she wants to do. The government sucks, education apparently sucks and kids are getting worse by the year, money isnt our problem it is "SOCIETY'.

[Kid Cid]

One more time as I have stated these facts more times than I can remember:

All of these facts are about Illinois and Illinois only, as I have nothing to go by for other states:

Tenure:

Tenure is part of IL law.

Typically tenure takes 4 years.

It does not guarantee a job (if one's position is eliminated there is recourse, but then it gets complicated...more than I choose to type).

It does guarantee due process (The LAW was written to protect against capricious admin behavior), that is PROVE YOUR CASE! But no more.

If an admin wants to fire someone, YES he/she has hoops to jump thru, and sadly most admins won't do it. Too much hassle? Not sure, but don't blame the Union for doing their job. Blame the admins for NOT doing their job. Bottom line... firing a teacher w/ tenure is not hard...cross the 'T's' and dot the 'I's', that's all. Read above. I have been on the firing side many times. No regrets.

Unions are there to defend the tenure law. Due Process. Nothing more or less!

 

Unions:

In IL ALL SCHOOLS ARE REQUIRED BY LAW TO HAVE A BARGAINING AGENT! Be that a union or just a group delegated by the school by popular vote to represent them. Therefore all schools have a contract per say by State Law Mandate. Go ahead and quibble about the unions forcing the law, I wasn't there. It's possible, but the State (IMHO)didn't want to deal w/ each individual to contract a salary. Of course Unions make it easier, but it is NOT REQUIRED. Bargaining agent is the key word. A move that I believe is prudent. That's why all ( I think) schools to my knowledge have a salary schedule.

There is a Fair Share Option wherein a member can opt out of the Union, get a reduction of dues, but can't vote, but are protected in every other way a full share member is protected.

 

Everything above is a fact(s). Except for the lone bolded part.

There is probably more that I could add, but too many of you would rather bash than read. Fine, whatever.

 

Just read my facts. If you bash me, it's prolly cause you didn't READ THE FACTS!

If you can "refudiate" (Sarah's words) anything, let me know.

Just state facts...not opinion.

So are you saying that if certified by the State of Illinois, a group of teachers could hire Drew Rosenhaus to represent them?

[rocknrobn26]

So are you saying that if certified by the State of Illinois, a group of teachers could hire Drew Rosenhaus to represent them?

 

I think so as long as a majority agree or the negotiating team has the power to select one. The BOE has the same right.

[Big Country]

The problem isnt the money or teachers. It is the children, ofcourse not all of them but a good majority of them. Look at what the government has done, they lowered the passing grade for kids which means that kids can slack just a little bit more if they want and still pass. It is insane to blame the teachers they are doing their jobs but if kids dont want to learn, what can they do? Lets not forget about the parents (the main part in a child's development) that have to know their place. The worst thing ever established is home schooling, it absolutely destroys kids no social ability at all. People have to stop saying put money into education, it all matters on the kid and what he/she wants to do. The government sucks, education apparently sucks and kids are getting worse by the year, money isnt our problem it is "SOCIETY'.

 

 

Disagree. Homeschooling still comes down to the parents and how/what they teach. We have some close friends that have chosen to home school. Their daughter, who just turned 6, is one of the brightest children of that age that I have met. She is well socialized, and that is a direct result of active parents that have included her in activities such as playgroups with Mom's Club, activities/field trips for other home schooled children, etc.

 

As with anything, there is no absolute, it comes down to how it is implemented. Home schooling works if the parent puts the work into it to be both teacher and parent. Public school works if the parent and teacher put the work into it. Private school works if the parent and teacher put the work into it. The key is ingraining children at a young age the importance of education, showing them that you care and want them to succeed and that it is important. Without that kind of role model, any child could fail.

[SEC=UGA]

Disagree. Homeschooling still comes down to the parents and how/what they teach. We have some close friends that have chosen to home school. Their daughter, who just turned 6, is one of the brightest children of that age that I have met. She is well socialized, and that is a direct result of active parents that have included her in activities such as playgroups with Mom's Club, activities/field trips for other home schooled children, etc.

 

As with anything, there is no absolute, it comes down to how it is implemented. Home schooling works if the parent puts the work into it to be both teacher and parent. Public school works if the parent and teacher put the work into it. Private school works if the parent and teacher put the work into it. The key is ingraining children at a young age the importance of education, showing them that you care and want them to succeed and that it is important. Without that kind of role model, any child could fail.

 

You are much wiser than you have let on.

[Big Country]

You are much wiser than you have let on.

 

 

I had a Will Ferrel blackout moment ala Old School.

[redrumjuice]

This is how we should treat all unions.

 

All gov't unions should be disbanded immediately and the employees fired.

[The Holy Roller]

Bold bits correct. I'd add constantly changing educational (so-called) systems to the list i.e. lack of rigor

 

And I've long since ceased to believe that throwing yet more money at it is going to solve anything.

 

This. Especially the more money. Hogwash. I think we could do away with the Dept. of Education and all the bureaucratic b.s. at the national and state levels and watch the quality of education improve.

 

Just saw on the local (St. Louis) news that a district in the St. Louis area recently had to let 50 teaching positons go and then spent $400K on a fence surrounding the high school? Really? That's what the bureaucracy thinks will make for a better educated kid in that district?

[Ursa Majoris]

This. Especially the more money. Hogwash. I think we could do away with the Dept. of Education and all the bureaucratic b.s. at the national and state levels and watch the quality of education improve.

 

Just saw on the local (St. Louis) news that a district in the St. Louis area recently had to let 50 teaching positons go and then spent $400K on a fence surrounding the high school? Really? That's what the bureaucracy thinks will make for a better educated kid in that district?

The next district over from me just asked for a property tax hike to pay for increasing the size of the parking lot. How about forcing the little $hits to use the bus, cutting traffic AND costs?

[Clubfoothead]

My daughter goes to the neighborhood public elementary school. It's a great school.