Yukon Cornelius Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Hey I am hoping he makes it another term because that means WI is out of this hole. sconny had a surplus when he walked in..... edit to add ... he may be gone after his first year. Russ may have a new job Edited March 12, 2011 by Yukon Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) So instead of continuing to make that same SHAM WOW!ty deals that will screw over our children in the future, we may as well stop the madness now. Yah sconny kids , with an Arkansas education, should have a bright future. edit to add.... if you look into the history of the sconny budget you will see that there just about always has been a deficit to start out and some how, with bargaining / cuts it has been worked out. The only difference this time was tax cuts for corporations off the top and then no negotiations. Edited March 12, 2011 by Yukon Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 sconny had a surplus when he walked in..... Wasn't that proven false by politifact.com? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 sconny had a surplus when he walked in..... Again, that myth has been debunked but continue to believe the lefty talking points even though they are ripe with falsehoods. your post = FAIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Wasn't that proven false by politifact.com? You have to remember the "left" as a whole pretty much aren't interested in the truth on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Again, that myth has been debunked but continue to believe the lefty talking points even though they are ripe with falsehoods. your post = FAIL. Actually he DID have a surplus when he walked in . . but that surplus was artifically created by one-offs and pushing back other expenses to this year. It is partially true, but Walker was facing a deficit almost immediately after he took office. Not a large one this year at all . . but a deficit nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Wasn't that proven false by politifact.com? ill go check it out but have not read anything that says otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Actually he DID have a surplus when he walked in . . but that surplus was artifically created by one-offs and pushing back other expenses to this year. It is partially true, but Walker was facing a deficit almost immediately after he took office. Not a large one this year at all . . but a deficit nonetheless. Like i said they do just about every year.... this one is know different exept the party of the right want to take out unions and they are starting in sconny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 ill go check it out but have not read anything that says otherwise. Here is what I found.... http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements...ave-budget-sur/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Chuck Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I'll take my turn to vent. What makes me mad as hell is that good educators are being forced out of what they love to do. To stay on now would be financial suicide. Many of them stand to lose $25,000 in retirement compensation. To hire all new, young teachers, regardless of enthusiasm, will not improve our schools. Cheapen them up, yes, but not make them necessarily educationally or functionally better. There is a learning curve for new teachers. I was one of them 14 years ago. It takes them a while to get into the swing. It is those of us in the trenches and "a SUPPORTIVE administration" that makes the difference in bringing a new young group of teachers along to take our place. Again, I know this because I was one of them. Guys like Charlie Sykes and Mark Belling insist that this budget plan will not change anything and that people will come to accept the "new" Wisconsin. Let me be the first to tell you what has already changed since Walker signed the bill. Walker shorted education so badly that teacher give backs are in no means going to save the fates of many teachers and programs. The Mukwonago school district has announced that 50 teachers are retiring early. They are looking at replacing maybe 20. How is this good for education in Wisconsin? The East Troy district has given pink slips to 18 teachers that will not be replaced. How is that good for education in Wisconsin? My kids who were very excited to start at dad's school next year will have to wait another year because we are going to have to cut 4K. How is that good for education in Wisconsin? My district is facing a 10% reduction in our budget and will eliminate 12 out of 135 full-time positions. How is that good for education in Wisconsin? Teachers in my district are going to have $450 per month net pay reductions because not only will we have to give up the ghost for Walker's budget, but we are going to have to pay for the new roof that is needed on one of the elementary schools in my district. By barring referendums, Walker put basic building improvements on the backs of teachers and programs. A few of the teachers in my district are married to teachers so their households stand to lose twice that. These are only facts from a few of the districts that I am familiar with, but I'm fairly certain it will play out around the state. I know a couple 4-6 year vets who are excellent educators with master's degrees who are absolutely SOL now that they have received pink slips. No public district in Wisconsin is going to hire a teacher with a Master's because everyone is strapped. They are going to have to suck in up and head to the private schools and take that $27,000 and $1200 health insurance stipend. As far as private school pension goes, well you're on your own with that one. That kind of compensation should go a long ways to paying off that $350 per month student loan, car loan, mortgage payment, food and heat. Not to mention insurance for your family. Yeah Sykes, that kind of thing isn't going to change daily life much. But the real kick in the nuts is that Walker actually expanded the voucher program. He and his cronies will tell you how vouchers will save the poor Milwaukee student by allowing him or her the chance to go a private school. Private schools CHOOSE who they educate. Milwaukee Marquette is not going to welcome, with open arms, some C/D student with ADHD and a parent in prison from the inter-city unless he can run a 4.5 40. Vouchers help lily-white kids parents from Lake Drive to shave 6000 some odd dollars off the $14,000 per year Milwaukee Marquette tuition. How is any of this going to improve education in Wisconsin? Someone answer me that? Smaller rural districts in Wisconsin will fail. I wonder how that is going to sit with parents who have to drive 30 minutes plus to pick up their kids from basketball practice with gas prices what they are. One final thought. Once on these boards I thought I heard someone ask why teachers need a Master's degree? Well one theory is that a Master's makes a better teacher. I know that my Master's has improved my game. That being said, up until this point, in every public school district in Wisconsin, a Master's was a sure fire way to get an increase in pay. If those were the ground rules wouldn't you take advantage for your family? Well so much for that. The $450 per month I'm giving up just erased the modest windfall I earned from two years of night school and then some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I'll take my turn to vent. What makes me mad as hell is that good educators are being forced out of what they love to do. To stay on now would be financial suicide. Many of them stand to lose $25,000 in retirement compensation. To hire all new, young teachers, regardless of enthusiasm, will not improve our schools. Cheapen them up, yes, but not make them necessarily educationally or functionally better. There is a learning curve for new teachers. I was one of them 14 years ago. It takes them a while to get into the swing. It is those of us in the trenches and "a SUPPORTIVE administration" that makes the difference in bringing a new young group of teachers along to take our place. Again, I know this because I was one of them. Guys like Charlie Sykes and Mark Belling insist that this budget plan will not change anything and that people will come to accept the "new" Wisconsin. Let me be the first to tell you what has already changed since Walker signed the bill. Walker shorted education so badly that teacher give backs are in no means going to save the fates of many teachers and programs. The Mukwonago school district has announced that 50 teachers are retiring early. They are looking at replacing maybe 20. How is this good for education in Wisconsin? The East Troy district has given pink slips to 18 teachers that will not be replaced. How is that good for education in Wisconsin? My kids who were very excited to start at dad's school next year will have to wait another year because we are going to have to cut 4K. How is that good for education in Wisconsin? My district is facing a 10% reduction in our budget and will eliminate 12 out of 135 full-time positions. How is that good for education in Wisconsin? Teachers in my district are going to have $450 per month net pay reductions because not only will we have to give up the ghost for Walker's budget, but we are going to have to pay for the new roof that is needed on one of the elementary schools in my district. By barring referendums, Walker put basic building improvements on the backs of teachers and programs. A few of the teachers in my district are married to teachers so their households stand to lose twice that. These are only facts from a few of the districts that I am familiar with, but I'm fairly certain it will play out around the state. I know a couple 4-6 year vets who are excellent educators with master's degrees who are absolutely SOL now that they have received pink slips. No public district in Wisconsin is going to hire a teacher with a Master's because everyone is strapped. They are going to have to suck in up and head to the private schools and take that $27,000 and $1200 health insurance stipend. As far as private school pension goes, well you're on your own with that one. That kind of compensation should go a long ways to paying off that $350 per month student loan, car loan, mortgage payment, food and heat. Not to mention insurance for your family. Yeah Sykes, that kind of thing isn't going to change daily life much. But the real kick in the nuts is that Walker actually expanded the voucher program. He and his cronies will tell you how vouchers will save the poor Milwaukee student by allowing him or her the chance to go a private school. Private schools CHOOSE who they educate. Milwaukee Marquette is not going to welcome, with open arms, some C/D student with ADHD and a parent in prison from the inter-city unless he can run a 4.5 40. Vouchers help lily-white kids parents from Lake Drive to shave 6000 some odd dollars off the $14,000 per year Milwaukee Marquette tuition. How is any of this going to improve education in Wisconsin? Someone answer me that? Smaller rural districts in Wisconsin will fail. I wonder how that is going to sit with parents who have to drive 30 minutes plus to pick up their kids from basketball practice with gas prices what they are. One final thought. Once on these boards I thought I heard someone ask why teachers need a Master's degree? Well one theory is that a Master's makes a better teacher. I know that my Master's has improved my game. That being said, up until this point, in every public school district in Wisconsin, a Master's was a sure fire way to get an increase in pay. If those were the ground rules wouldn't you take advantage for your family? Well so much for that. The $450 per month I'm giving up just erased the modest windfall I earned from two years of night school and then some. Ground Chuck I am sorry this has effected you so personally. It is easy for everyone to talk of white tower idealistic concepts without having any personal skin in the game. I was raised in Wisconsin and had the benefit of great schools. To when I had my first year in college, it was almost a downgrade from my senior year in high school. I credit the fantastic teachers I have had for that advantage. Thank you for what you do. Teaching (as we have seen) is a profession that never gets the credit it deserves. Unfortunately now teaching will not attract such great candidates anymore. Now teaching will be seen as a dead end job, with little to no chance at making a viable career for someone that has any other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Chuck Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Thank you for the thanks BP. It is very appreciated right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 yeah, because this accurately depicts the experience of the 85% (or whatever the current number is) of american workers who AREN'T in a union. you're coming into this thread with quite the flourish of harebrained propaganda. Question - WHY do the 85% have those benefits? Because of past union actions. Once unions are dead and gone, how many CEOs and boards are going to continue to do these things because they're nice guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Question - WHY do the 85% have those benefits? Because of past union actions. Once unions are dead and gone, how many CEOs and boards are going to continue to do these things because they're nice guys? because they're nice guys? probably zero. however, the ones who will do these things because want employees who are worth a damn? probably a pretty high number. 85% have those benefits because they are productive enough to warrant it. why do you hate the idea of people voluntarily engaging in mutually beneficial transactions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) because they're nice guys? probably zero. however, the ones who will do these things because want employees who are worth a damn? probably a pretty high number. 85% have those benefits because they are productive enough to warrant it. why do you hate the idea of people voluntarily engaging in mutually beneficial transactions? I love the idea of people engaging in mutually beneficial transactions. But given the choices of "we can both come out pretty far ahead in this," "I can come out WAY ahead and the other guy can stay even," or "I can make gazillions of dollars if we do this AND I screw the other guy," you don't have to read much history to see that in the past 30 yrs the mindset of a CEO is to choose (3) with (2) as the worst outcome he'll accept. Edited March 13, 2011 by Chavez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 According to the pro-union crowd here, unions also gave us fire, the wheel and sliced bread as well. So we should just fork everything over to them and be herded like sheep. Nah, but unions gave us the 40 hr workweek, the weekend, and paid sick/vacation. I don't know about you, but I kinda like all those innovations. You guys are like the Front for the People of Judea in Life of Brian - "what have the Romans ever done for us?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I'll take my turn to vent. What makes me mad as hell is that good educators are being forced out of what they love to do. To stay on now would be financial suicide. Many of them stand to lose $25,000 in retirement compensation. To hire all new, young teachers, regardless of enthusiasm, will not improve our schools. Cheapen them up, yes, but not make them necessarily educationally or functionally better. There is a learning curve for new teachers. I was one of them 14 years ago. It takes them a while to get into the swing. It is those of us in the trenches and "a SUPPORTIVE administration" that makes the difference in bringing a new young group of teachers along to take our place. Again, I know this because I was one of them. Guys like Charlie Sykes and Mark Belling insist that this budget plan will not change anything and that people will come to accept the "new" Wisconsin. Let me be the first to tell you what has already changed since Walker signed the bill. Walker shorted education so badly that teacher give backs are in no means going to save the fates of many teachers and programs. The Mukwonago school district has announced that 50 teachers are retiring early. They are looking at replacing maybe 20. How is this good for education in Wisconsin? The East Troy district has given pink slips to 18 teachers that will not be replaced. How is that good for education in Wisconsin? My kids who were very excited to start at dad's school next year will have to wait another year because we are going to have to cut 4K. How is that good for education in Wisconsin? My district is facing a 10% reduction in our budget and will eliminate 12 out of 135 full-time positions. How is that good for education in Wisconsin? Teachers in my district are going to have $450 per month net pay reductions because not only will we have to give up the ghost for Walker's budget, but we are going to have to pay for the new roof that is needed on one of the elementary schools in my district. By barring referendums, Walker put basic building improvements on the backs of teachers and programs. A few of the teachers in my district are married to teachers so their households stand to lose twice that. These are only facts from a few of the districts that I am familiar with, but I'm fairly certain it will play out around the state. I know a couple 4-6 year vets who are excellent educators with master's degrees who are absolutely SOL now that they have received pink slips. No public district in Wisconsin is going to hire a teacher with a Master's because everyone is strapped. They are going to have to suck in up and head to the private schools and take that $27,000 and $1200 health insurance stipend. As far as private school pension goes, well you're on your own with that one. That kind of compensation should go a long ways to paying off that $350 per month student loan, car loan, mortgage payment, food and heat. Not to mention insurance for your family. Yeah Sykes, that kind of thing isn't going to change daily life much. But the real kick in the nuts is that Walker actually expanded the voucher program. He and his cronies will tell you how vouchers will save the poor Milwaukee student by allowing him or her the chance to go a private school. Private schools CHOOSE who they educate. Milwaukee Marquette is not going to welcome, with open arms, some C/D student with ADHD and a parent in prison from the inter-city unless he can run a 4.5 40. Vouchers help lily-white kids parents from Lake Drive to shave 6000 some odd dollars off the $14,000 per year Milwaukee Marquette tuition. How is any of this going to improve education in Wisconsin? Someone answer me that? Smaller rural districts in Wisconsin will fail. I wonder how that is going to sit with parents who have to drive 30 minutes plus to pick up their kids from basketball practice with gas prices what they are. One final thought. Once on these boards I thought I heard someone ask why teachers need a Master's degree? Well one theory is that a Master's makes a better teacher. I know that my Master's has improved my game. That being said, up until this point, in every public school district in Wisconsin, a Master's was a sure fire way to get an increase in pay. If those were the ground rules wouldn't you take advantage for your family? Well so much for that. The $450 per month I'm giving up just erased the modest windfall I earned from two years of night school and then some. Interesting post. Thanks for sharing - reading something that is "real" is much more interesting than the other stuff out here like - Walker will be selling assets for pennies or we are becoming Mississippi or Unions invented everything that is wonderful in life. I do have some questions though.... Why are people retiring now? What is causing them to all of the sudden decide to retire? I can't believe it is the pension and insurance contribution - they would still be money ahead by staying on the job - what has sparked these people to all of the sudden decide to retire? Your district may be facing a 10% reduction but why does this mean that it all has to come from head reduction? Do none of the "tools" that walker has now given your district help to offset that? Maybe it does not cover the whole 10% but maybe some of it - If you do have to let people go I would hope that those decisions are done with the students in mind and it is not based on seniority and should not be based on highest salaries either. Why is East Troy already handing out pink slips? What all of the sudden happened? They must have already been hurting financially so if the Walker bill did not pass would they just have kicked the can down the road or increased taxes? If teachers have Masters degrees they should be more qualified than other teachers and would then get hired over someone who does not have a masters degree - they may not automatically get a higher rate of pay but why should they? When we hire people we get resumes from people with masters degrees and from people without - we know what we will pay someone and hire the best person for the job - that may be the person with the degree and it may not be. Why would it be different for teachers? I struggle with the voucher thing - I do like the fact that it enables kids to get out of say MPS where they be held back on learning because of other kids that slow down the process but yea I could see where if enough get out then you are left with crap and those kids left will probably suffer. But I also put a good amount of the blame on the parents for that one - like you said if a parent is in prison they are probably stuck at MPS but why have a kid who may have crap parents in prison contribute to slowing down the education of other kids. An example would be when I first got out of college I took some Excel classes - there were say 20 poeple in the class and always had one or two who had no idea what they were doing and it slowed the entire class down - they may have picked the wrong class but it had a direct effect on the other 19 people and we did not get our money's worth. Well just some questions that popped into my head when I read your post and I think it blows when anyone loses employment but we are in a rough time all around the USA and people in public and private are hurting to stay employed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Interesting post. Thanks for sharing - reading something that is "real" is much more interesting than the other stuff out here like - Walker will be selling assets for pennies or we are becoming Mississippi or Unions invented everything that is wonderful in life. You have never adequately said why this provision of selling off state assets with zero oversight is beneficial. Yet your harping on "its all about the budget" doesnt support that provision at all. Your Walker-tinted glasses are quite obvious . . . I do have some questions though.... Why are people retiring now? What is causing them to all of the sudden decide to retire? I can't believe it is the pension and insurance contribution - they would still be money ahead by staying on the job - what has sparked these people to all of the sudden decide to retire? Perhaps because after eliminating collective bargaining rights, Wlaker plans to gut education in next years budget? They are staying ahead of the curve? Your district may be facing a 10% reduction but why does this mean that it all has to come from head reduction? Do none of the "tools" that walker has now given your district help to offset that? Maybe it does not cover the whole 10% but maybe some of it - If you do have to let people go I would hope that those decisions are done with the students in mind and it is not based on seniority and should not be based on highest salaries either. If by "tools" you mean unfettered ability to cut people left and right while keeping administrators pay intact, then wow . . . what greeeeat tools! All this does is give increasing levels of control to adminstrators, who BTW, are the most highly paid people in the school system. I recommend you look at the post TimC had on this where it stated the large salaries that administrators are making . . . which hasnt changed . . but obviously the teachers are the problem. I am sad for the youth of Wisconsin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I am sad for the youth of Wisconsin. About the selling of the assets - I have in previous posts showed an example where it may make sense in some circumstances to not sell to the highest bidder. Do you seriously think that every business that sells always sells to the highest bidder? Absolutely not. Also nothing has been sold and if he does sell to a lower bidder for reason that makes sense for the state then I am with you 100% he should be lambasted but until then it a wasted point. I think you just enjoy arguing so you keep bringing this up - nothing has been sold and maybe he sells to the highest bidder then what a waste of breath. Staying of the curve? they don't know what that curve is yet so prematurely retiring is just stupid - if the only reason is to stay ahead of an unknown that is pretty irresponsible. The tools are not to just cut people and yes now the power is in the admin hands. You are a manager are you not? Would you ever give away the power to hire/fire who you want? I doubt it. I also assume you are paid more than the people you "administer" what is wrong with that? Now are there too many administrators out there? Probably and should some of these go instead of some teachers probably and i would hope that would be taken into consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathpig Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Nah, but unions gave us the 40 hr workweek, the weekend, and paid sick/vacation. Which union was that? The earliest I see 40 hour workweek and weekends is somewhere around 1916, intiially promoted by George F. Johnson (business owner, not union leader) and more famously adapted by Henry Ford (business owner, not union leader). As for the main topic, this whole issue is so fubar'd I don't know where to start. I haven't done the research (I'm willing to have it thrown at me!), but I'm going to assume that you would not find a high correlation to high salaries of public school teachers and successful education. So the answer to improving education isn't 'throw more money at teachers'. How you rate 'successful education' is a minefield, because if you tie money to that then teachers are going to teach only what is necessary for their students to pass whatever test rates 'successful education' (and, of course, this opens the can of worms as to what *should* be the goal of education). Part of the problem is that core curriculums should probably be updated a bit for the modern world-- home finances, computer skills, etc. should be far, far more common than they are. But the single biggest problem for teachers is that they're maybe 50% of puzzle when it comes to a student's education, but they eat 100% of the blame when the student fails. No one seems eager to point this out, and so we continue our nation's fine modern tradition of burying the concept of self-responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 But the single biggest problem for teachers is that they're maybe 50% of puzzle when it comes to a student's education, but they eat 100% of the blame when the student fails. No one seems eager to point this out, and so we continue our nation's fine modern tradition of burying the concept of self-responsibility. Excellent point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 But the single biggest problem for teachers is that they're maybe 50% of puzzle when it comes to a student's education, but they eat 100% of the blame when the student fails. No one seems eager to point this out, and so we continue our nation's fine modern tradition of burying the concept of self-responsibility. Maybe less than 50%, as you need parents who instill (or at least attempt to) the value of education in their kids, and kids who are willing to follow through on what their parents show them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 But the single biggest problem for teachers is that they're maybe 50% of puzzle when it comes to a student's education, but they eat 100% of the blame when the student fails. No one seems eager to point this out, and so we continue our nation's fine modern tradition of burying the concept of self-responsibility. not sure they get 100% of the blame I would put the majority of the blame on parents and very little on the teachers. Crap if possible I would say in some instances the blame is 110% on the parents and the teachers save the kids from being as bad as what could be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) But the single biggest problem for teachers is that they're maybe 50% of puzzle when it comes to a student's education, but they eat 100% of the blame when the student fails. No one seems eager to point this out, and so we continue our nation's fine modern tradition of burying the concept of self-responsibility. This. Some of us have banged on about it ad nauseam but it is worth saying over and over - the success of a student's education is almost all in the hands of the student's parents and the student themselves. The habit of throwing more money at education realizes a decreasing level of success. We are well past the sweet spot on the exponential curve of returns vs money, IMO. That said, you wouldn't get me to do a teacher's job for double their wage. Edited March 13, 2011 by Ursa Majoris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 This. Some of us have banged on about it ad nauseam but it is worth saying over and over - the success of a student's education is almost all in the hands of the student's parents and the student themselves. The habit of throwing more money at education realizes a decreasing level of success. We are well past the sweet spot on the exponential curve of returns vs money, IMO. That said, you wouldn't get me to do a teacher's job for double their wage. I am not sure agree - I may have missed it but I don't see many people blaming teachers for the bad education kids are getting. I am thinking most people out there think teachers do a good job and are respected. Most of the arguments I am seeing don't revolve around teachers being the blame for poor education. I am not really disagreeing with what Ursa is saying I am disagreeing with the word this where he is agreeing to the post that teachers get most of the blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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