wiegie Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Heaven and Nature By ROSS DOUTHAT Published: December 20, 2009 It’s fitting that James Cameron’s “Avatar” arrived in theaters at Christmastime. Like the holiday season itself, the science fiction epic is a crass embodiment of capitalistic excess wrapped around a deeply felt religious message. It’s at once the blockbuster to end all blockbusters, and the Gospel According to James. But not the Christian Gospel. Instead, “Avatar” is Cameron’s long apologia for pantheism — a faith that equates God with Nature, and calls humanity into religious communion with the natural world. In Cameron’s sci-fi universe, this communion is embodied by the blue-skinned, enviably slender Na’Vi, an alien race whose idyllic existence on the planet Pandora is threatened by rapacious human invaders. The Na’Vi are saved by the movie’s hero, a turncoat Marine, but they’re also saved by their faith in Eywa, the “All Mother,” described variously as a network of energy and the sum total of every living thing. If this narrative arc sounds familiar, that’s because pantheism has been Hollywood’s religion of choice for a generation now. It’s the truth that Kevin Costner discovered when he went dancing with wolves. It’s the metaphysic woven through Disney cartoons like “The Lion King” and “Pocahontas.” And it’s the dogma of George Lucas’s Jedi, whose mystical Force “surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together.” Hollywood keeps returning to these themes because millions of Americans respond favorably to them. From Deepak Chopra to Eckhart Tolle, the “religion and inspiration” section in your local bookstore is crowded with titles pushing a pantheistic message. A recent Pew Forum report on how Americans mix and match theology found that many self-professed Christians hold beliefs about the “spiritual energy” of trees and mountains that would fit right in among the indigo-tinted Na’Vi. As usual, Alexis de Tocqueville saw it coming. The American belief in the essential unity of all mankind, Tocqueville wrote in the 1830s, leads us to collapse distinctions at every level of creation. “Not content with the discovery that there is nothing in the world but a creation and a Creator,” he suggested, democratic man “seeks to expand and simplify his conception by including God and the universe in one great whole.” Today there are other forces that expand pantheism’s American appeal. We pine for what we’ve left behind, and divinizing the natural world is an obvious way to express unease about our hyper-technological society. The threat of global warming, meanwhile, has lent the cult of Nature qualities that every successful religion needs — a crusading spirit, a rigorous set of ‘thou shalt nots,” and a piping-hot apocalypse. At the same time, pantheism opens a path to numinous experience for people uncomfortable with the literal-mindedness of the monotheistic religions — with their miracle-working deities and holy books, their virgin births and resurrected bodies. As the Polish philosopher Leszek Kolakowski noted, attributing divinity to the natural world helps “bring God closer to human experience,” while “depriving him of recognizable personal traits.” For anyone who pines for transcendence but recoils at the idea of a demanding Almighty who interferes in human affairs, this is an ideal combination. Indeed, it represents a form of religion that even atheists can support. Richard Dawkins has called pantheism “a sexed-up atheism.” (He means that as a compliment.) Sam Harris concluded his polemic “The End of Faith” by rhapsodizing about the mystical experiences available from immersion in “the roiling mystery of the world.” Citing Albert Einstein’s expression of religious awe at the “beauty and sublimity” of the universe, Dawkins allows, “In this sense I too am religious.” The question is whether Nature actually deserves a religious response. Traditional theism has to wrestle with the problem of evil: if God is good, why does he allow suffering and death? But Nature is suffering and death. Its harmonies require violence. Its “circle of life” is really a cycle of mortality. And the human societies that hew closest to the natural order aren’t the shining Edens of James Cameron’s fond imaginings. They’re places where existence tends to be nasty, brutish and short. Religion exists, in part, precisely because humans aren’t at home amid these cruel rhythms. We stand half inside the natural world and half outside it. We’re beasts with self-consciousness, predators with ethics, mortal creatures who yearn for immortality. This is an agonized position, and if there’s no escape upward — or no God to take on flesh and come among us, as the Christmas story has it — a deeply tragic one. Pantheism offers a different sort of solution: a downward exit, an abandonment of our tragic self-consciousness, a re-merger with the natural world our ancestors half-escaped millennia ago. But except as dust and ashes, Nature cannot take us back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Interesting indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qdaddyo Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I tend to lean to the left in my politics, but I never miss Ross Douthat's column. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 The question is whether Nature actually deserves a religious response. Traditional theism has to wrestle with the problem of evil: if God is good, why does he allow suffering and death? This is a question that is extremely common , probably one that has led many to doubt the existence of God ( if this is what they choose as belief ) and one that might be the most difficult to answer I am sure there are various answers and I am sure we have discussed this previously in many a Huddle Thread ...as a Believer , my answer is one that many others may also share and its two fold : 1. Man commited sin in the Garden of Eden . Simply put we are marked with Sin which also equates to suffering and hardship 2. Earth is not the end game . There was never a promise that life on earth would be perfect and that there would be no suffering . Rather the words in NT resonate that the end game is Heaven where there is in fact no suffering , no pain ...only peace and Joy . Heaven is the finish line . That in reality we are Heavenly spirits trapped in human bodies and not the other way around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 2. Earth is not the end game . There was never a promise that life on earth would be perfect and that there would be no suffering . Does that mean that Pandora is heaven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I'm not sure how interesting the article was. It reeks of an article written by a Christian who is trying to convince readers that God is an almighty being. The author basically claims the pantheist view is incorrect or flawed (even relating the view as a form of atheism) and he does this by inferring the pantheist views are a result of Hollywood and media brainwashing. On the flip side, one could argue that stricter religions, christianity for instance, were created by powerful men to control the masses. One could even argue that the thought of a 'demanding almighty' (as said by the author) contradicts the concept of God (all knowing, all loving). Personally, being raised in a Catholic grade school but not practicing since 8th grade, I don't affiliate with any religion as an adult. But I think it's awfully short-sighted and human (in a primitive way) to view God as a demanding being in need of recognition, which is the author's depiction. I definitely identify more with the idea that God is an energy that we are all a part of, which includes but is not limited to, nature, the universe, energy, emotions, conciousness etc... I certainly didn't derive that feeling of what God means to me from watching Disney movies or watching television shows. And as much as the author claims pantheists have been essentially brainwashed into this view, I know for sure that Christianity has been shoved down my throat far more frequent than any other religious theories. To each his own I guess. Any person claiming to 'know' what/who God is, only verifies their own ignorance on the subject. Whatever God feels to you (or doesn't) is the only thing that matters. It doesn't have to be right, wrong or indifferent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 The author basically claims the pantheist view is incorrect or flawed (even relating the view as a form of atheism) and he does this by inferring the pantheist views are a result of Hollywood and media brainwashing. The atheism / pantheism piece was actually a quote from Richard Dawkins, a well-known atheist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 The atheism / pantheism piece was actually a quote from Richard Dawkins, a well-known atheist. Right, but the author is using that to support his own view that pantheism is bad/incorrect/wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I love how Hollywood is blamed for all the worlds woes. Hey, we don't force you to watch the movies we make. Ridiculously narrow minded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 what is true is a seemingly universal need for a spiritual side to our lives. be it through religion, pantheism, big budget movies, or whatever else, we humans seem to have an innate need to strive beyond this life, to something that has more significance or purpose or meaning. in a world where one could say that only the strong survives, we applaud sacrifice, grace, and humility. is it programmed in us to be this way? have we evolved to be this way? nobody really knows. maybe we just want so bad for there to be something, anything, beyond the banalities of life, something where nature isn't as cruel as it can be things actually happen for a reason. i used to be a supreme realist and shunned all this talk, but as i age and hopefully wisen, i've found that opening up a part of your heart to possibilities that seem altogether unreal brings a level of richness to life that i've never experienced before ... and what's so wrong with that? i don't care how it's expressed ... either at church or at the movies or at home when my son gives me a hug ... what truly matters is something that can't be seen or touched, but it's as real as we are alive ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 what is true is a seemingly universal need for a spiritual side to our lives. be it through religion, pantheism, big budget movies, or whatever else, we humans seem to have an innate need to strive beyond this life, to something that has more significance or purpose or meaning. in a world where one could say that only the strong survives, we applaud sacrifice, grace, and humility. is it programmed in us to be this way? have we evolved to be this way? nobody really knows. maybe we just want so bad for there to be something, anything, beyond the banalities of life, something where nature isn't as cruel as it can be things actually happen for a reason. i used to be a supreme realist and shunned all this talk, but as i age and hopefully wisen, i've found that opening up a part of your heart to possibilities that seem altogether unreal brings a level of richness to life that i've never experienced before ... and what's so wrong with that? i don't care how it's expressed ... either at church or at the movies or at home when my son gives me a hug ... what truly matters is something that can't be seen or touched, but it's as real as we are alive ... agreed. the problem i have is when people start making real decisions based on this 'possible' afterness. doing on not doing something based on what might happen in an afterlife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 I love how Hollywood is blamed for all the worlds woes. Hey, we don't force you to watch the movies we make. Ridiculously narrow minded. Did you actually read the article I posted? It isn't blaming Hollywood for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Did you actually read the article I posted? It isn't blaming Hollywood for anything. Sorry bro...should have quoted Brentastic's post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 Sorry bro...should have quoted Brentastic's post. Well, Brent was wrong too. The author is saying that the reason Hollywood has such story lines is that there is a demand for them. In other words, Hollywood is following society, not brainwashing it. In any case, Hollywood really has nothing to do with the author's main idea: Religion exists, in part, precisely because humans aren’t at home amid these cruel rhythms. We stand half inside the natural world and half outside it. We’re beasts with self-consciousness, predators with ethics, mortal creatures who yearn for immortality. This is an agonized position, and if there’s no escape upward — or no God to take on flesh and come among us, as the Christmas story has it — a deeply tragic one. Pantheism offers a different sort of solution: a downward exit, an abandonment of our tragic self-consciousness, a re-merger with the natural world our ancestors half-escaped millennia ago. But except as dust and ashes, Nature cannot take us back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 (edited) agreed. the problem i have is when people start making real decisions based on this 'possible' afterness. doing on not doing something based on what might happen in an afterlife. Problem ? quite the opposite Making decisions based on possibility to be with our Maker and achieve eternal life in his Kingdom is the basis on Faith and Most if not all religions how in the world could this be a problem ? especially since the criteria for eternal life is based a great deal of living a good , selfless life based on kindness , respect ,compassion, humility and Love ...if you are making decisions in life with this as your criteria and goal , how in the world is it a problem ?? wouldn't you think the world would be a better place ...i can tell you it would be Edited December 24, 2009 by isleseeya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Problem ? quite the opposite Making decisions based on possibility to be with our Maker and achieve eternal life in his Kingdom is the basis on Faith and Most if not all religions how in the world could this be a problem ? especially since the criteria for eternal life is based a great deal of living a good , selfless life based on kindness , respect ,compassion, humility and Love ...if you are making decisions in life with this as your criteria and goal , how in the world is it a problem ?? wouldn't you think the world would be a better place ...i can tell you it would be Well you left out a few qualifiers but yah christians have a lock on selflessness, kindness, respect and love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 Well, Brent was wrong too. The author is saying that the reason Hollywood has such story lines is that there is a demand for them. In other words, Hollywood is following society, not brainwashing it. In any case, Hollywood really has nothing to do with the author's main idea: You're right, I did mis-interpret what role Hollywood plays in pantheism (according to the author). It doesn't change the main point of my post. I don't agree with this author's view at all nor do I believe he supports his position adequately. He kinda comes off as a dushe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Well, Brent was wrong too. The author is saying that the reason Hollywood has such story lines is that there is a demand for them. In other words, Hollywood is following society, not brainwashing it. In any case, Hollywood really has nothing to do with the author's main idea: Yeah, that's what I got too. The author was saying, in effect, that art was imitating life in these instances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I'm not sure how interesting the article was. It reeks of an article written by a Christian who is trying to convince readers that God is an almighty being. The author basically claims the pantheist view is incorrect or flawed (even relating the view as a form of atheism) and he does this by inferring the pantheist views are a result of Hollywood and media brainwashing. On the flip side, one could argue that stricter religions, christianity for instance, were created by powerful men to control the masses. One could even argue that the thought of a 'demanding almighty' (as said by the author) contradicts the concept of God (all knowing, all loving). Personally, being raised in a Catholic grade school but not practicing since 8th grade, I don't affiliate with any religion as an adult. But I think it's awfully short-sighted and human (in a primitive way) to view God as a demanding being in need of recognition, which is the author's depiction. I definitely identify more with the idea that God is an energy that we are all a part of, which includes but is not limited to, nature, the universe, energy, emotions, conciousness etc... I certainly didn't derive that feeling of what God means to me from watching Disney movies or watching television shows. And as much as the author claims pantheists have been essentially brainwashed into this view, I know for sure that Christianity has been shoved down my throat far more frequent than any other religious theories. To each his own I guess. Any person claiming to 'know' what/who God is, only verifies their own ignorance on the subject. Whatever God feels to you (or doesn't) is the only thing that matters. It doesn't have to be right, wrong or indifferent. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 what is true is a seemingly universal need for a spiritual side to our lives. be it through religion, pantheism, big budget movies, or whatever else, we humans seem to have an innate need to strive beyond this life, to something that has more significance or purpose or meaning. in a world where one could say that only the strong survives, we applaud sacrifice, grace, and humility. is it programmed in us to be this way? have we evolved to be this way? nobody really knows. maybe we just want so bad for there to be something, anything, beyond the banalities of life, something where nature isn't as cruel as it can be things actually happen for a reason. i used to be a supreme realist and shunned all this talk, but as i age and hopefully wisen, i've found that opening up a part of your heart to possibilities that seem altogether unreal brings a level of richness to life that i've never experienced before ... and what's so wrong with that? i don't care how it's expressed ... either at church or at the movies or at home when my son gives me a hug ... what truly matters is something that can't be seen or touched, but it's as real as we are alive ... I believe the ego plays a big part in us needing to know the answer and we use it almost as sort of a defense mechanism... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I believe the ego plays a big part in us needing to know the answer and we use it almost as sort of a defense mechanism... people are scared that they only have say 75 years..... its called Vanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share Posted December 29, 2009 people are scared that they only have say 75 years..... its called Vanity. I think it's called "the horror of the possibility that your whole life is really quite pointless" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Well you left out a few qualifiers but yah christians have a lock on selflessness, kindness, respect and love. Not sure if anyone has a lock on it but that should be the goal in how a person tries to live life imho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 (edited) I'm not sure how interesting the article was. It reeks of an article written by a Christian who is trying to convince readers that God is an almighty being. The author basically claims the pantheist view is incorrect or flawed (even relating the view as a form of atheism) and he does this by inferring the pantheist views are a result of Hollywood and media brainwashing. On the flip side, one could argue that stricter religions, christianity for instance, were created by powerful men to control the masses. One could even argue that the thought of a 'demanding almighty' (as said by the author) contradicts the concept of God (all knowing, all loving). Personally, being raised in a Catholic grade school but not practicing since 8th grade, I don't affiliate with any religion as an adult. But I think it's awfully short-sighted and human (in a primitive way) to view God as a demanding being in need of recognition, which is the author's depiction. I definitely identify more with the idea that God is an energy that we are all a part of, which includes but is not limited to, nature, the universe, energy, emotions, conciousness etc... I certainly didn't derive that feeling of what God means to me from watching Disney movies or watching television shows. And as much as the author claims pantheists have been essentially brainwashed into this view, I know for sure that Christianity has been shoved down my throat far more frequent than any other religious theories. To each his own I guess. Any person claiming to 'know' what/who God is, only verifies their own ignorance on the subject. Whatever God feels to you (or doesn't) is the only thing that matters. It doesn't have to be right, wrong or indifferent. Are you talking about Catholicism or Christianity ? there is a huge difference Catholicism is controlling and demanding ...Rituals , sacraments , no meat on fridays , etc ...almost none of which is indicated in the Bible ( New Testament ) ...Clearly a great deal of man made laws ( the canon laws ) and rules added for which even the Catholic Church can admit Christianity in its purest sense is not controlling and is based on what is indicated in New Testatments ...a guide to living , a guide to relationship with the Lord , and at its core is Grace which by definition lifts any a burden / weight of guilt that we tend to carry Edited December 29, 2009 by isleseeya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 I think it's called "the horror of the possibility that your whole life is really quite pointless" Bingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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