Big Score 1 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 weren't they a good running team before-hand?.... Mediocre would be the best description IMO. Dan Reeves last year, the Falcons had the NFL's 14th ranked rushing offense for yards & 8th for ypa. Mora Jr, when first assembling his new Coaching staff, lured Gibbs out of retirement in 2004 to Coach up the Atlanta O'line and the Falcons immediately became the NFL's #1 ranked rushing offense, for both yards & ypa. Same results in 2005 as well. NFL's #1 ranked rushing offense, for both yards & ypa. As I said, probably one of the worst examples you could've chosen for your argument, was using Alex Gibbs move to Atlanta. The example you provided, only proved the opposite of the point you were trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 2002 they were 4th with Michael Vick. 4.5 yard average. 2003 Falcons 14th 4.5 yard average. 2004 #1. 5.1 yard average. 2005 #1. 4.8 yd average. Of course Vick going down in Reeves' last year was a factor. Still they did improve under Gibbs. Wasn't he a consultant there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dogs Posted July 8, 2006 Author Share Posted July 8, 2006 I couldnt disagree with you more. Saunders in all circles is viewed as a much better cordinator than Alex Gibbs. Over the past few years, in my mind, Saunders and Kubiak were the elite Offensive cordinators. Al Saunders has been the mastermind behind the most prolific offense of the past 5-6 years. He will always have a runningback that puts up hugh numbers, a tight end that will catch some td's, and an offense that will put up the numbers. Honestly, If I had the number two pick, I'd take Portis over Alexander and Tomlinson. While I appreciate your input, there's no way I'd pass up Alexander or LT for Portis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 The example you provided, only proved the opposite of the point you were trying to make. explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 2002 they were 4th with Michael Vick. 4.5 yard average. 2003 Falcons 14th 4.5 yard average. 2004 #1. 5.1 yard average. 2005 #1. 4.8 yd average. Of course Vick going down in Reeves' last year was a factor. Still they did improve under Gibbs. Wasn't he a consultant there? true, but they were still a very good running team with at least 4.5 ypc.....that's likely better than maybe 2/3 of the NFL....maybe more... but going up from 4.5 to 5.1 is actually a pretty good improvement... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 explain? You said you think Saunders Coaching impact for the Skins is being overrrated and then used Alex Gibbs coming to Atlanta as an example for a Coaching change being overrated. Problem with using Gibbs as an example to show Coaching change as being overrated, is that Gibbs took an Atlanta running game that had ranked 14th in yards rushing & 8th in ypa and immediately had the Atlanta running game ranking 1st in yards & 1st in ypa, two years in a row. Bad example for showing a Coaching change as being overrated. In fact using Gibbs for your example, actually proved the opposite of the point you were trying to make. Comprende now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 You said you think Saunders Coaching impact for the Skins is being overrrated and then used Alex Gibbs coming to Atlanta as an example for a Coaching change being overrated. Problem with using Gibbs as an example to show Coaching change as being overrated, is that Gibbs took an Atlanta running game that had ranked 14th in yards rushing & 8th in ypa and immediately had the Atlanta running game ranking 1st in yards & 1st in ypa, two years in a row. Bad example for showing a Coaching change as being overrated. In fact using Gibbs for your example, actually proved the opposite of the point you were trying to make. Comprende now? wasn't Vick hurt the year they were 14th?.....and their defense was horrible that year as well... the following year, Vick was healthy and the defense somehow plays better when Vick is healthy...so this would allow them to run the ball more... simple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 wasn't Vick hurt the year they were 14th?.....and their defense was horrible that year as well... the following year, Vick was healthy and the defense somehow plays better when Vick is healthy...so this would allow them to run the ball more... simple So let me see if I've got this right. The Atlanta Falcons have never, ever, in the entire Franchise history, ranked #1 in both rushing yards & #1 in ypa. Doesn't matter who the QB is and doesn't matter if the QB is healthy or not. Micheal Vick, Crystral Chandelier, Jeff George, Chrissy Miller, Steve Bartkowski etc...etc...etc Doesn't matter who the Coaching staff is, Dan Reeves, June Jones, Marion Campbell, Dan Henning etc...etc...etc... Jim Mora Jr comes to town and lures Alex Gibbs out of retirement to Coach up the O'line and the Atlanta Falcons now have the NFL's #1 ranked team for both rushing yards & ypa two years in a row. Somehow, to you, this is a good example of a Coaching change being overrated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 So let me see if I've got this right. The Atlanta Falcons have never, ever, in the entire Franchise history, ranked #1 in both rushing yards & #1 in ypa. Doesn't matter who the QB is and doesn't matter if the QB is healthy or not. Micheal Vick, Crystral Chandelier, Jeff George, Chrissy Miller, Steve Bartkowski etc...etc...etc Doesn't matter who the Coaching staff is, Dan Reeves, June Jones, Marion Campbell, Dan Henning etc...etc...etc... Jim Mora Jr comes to town and lures Alex Gibbs out of retirement to Coach up the O'line and the Atlanta Falcons now have the NFL's #1 ranked team for both rushing yards & ypa two years in a row. Somehow, to you, this is a good example of a Coaching change being overrated nope...you're stretching what I am saying.... I think great teams start with great coaching... but...the Falcons running game was boosted at least a little by Vick running the ball more and him being out there... you can't compare the 2004/05 Falcons with the 2003 Falcons who had Doug Johnson (I think his name was Doug) at QB.....that's as asinine as you're trying to make my argument sound.... they have Dunn, Duckett and Vick who all earned a good amount of rushing yds.. *sigh*...here we go... 2003 Vick - 5 GP - 255 rush yds Dunn - 11 GP - 672 rush yds Duckett - 16 GP - 779 rush yds total - 170 yds (Dunn only played 11 games and Vick played 5....you're comparing apples and oranges here) 2004 Vick - 902 rush yds Dunn - 16 GP - 1106 rush yds Duckett - 509 rush yds total - 2517 yds 2005 Vick - 597 rush yds Dunn - 16 GP - 1416 rush yds Duckett - 380 rush yds total - 2393 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 nope...you're stretching what I am saying.... I think great teams start with great coaching... but...the Falcons running game was boosted at least a little by Vick running the ball more and him being out there... you can't compare the 2004/05 Falcons with the 2003 Falcons who had Doug Johnson (I think his name was Doug) at QB.....that's as asinine as you're trying to make my argument sound.... they have Dunn, Duckett and Vick who all earned a good amount of rushing yds.. *sigh*...here we go... 2003 Vick - 5 GP - 255 rush yds Dunn - 11 GP - 672 rush yds Duckett - 16 GP - 779 rush yds total - 170 yds (Dunn only played 11 games and Vick played 5....you're comparing apples and oranges here) 2004 Vick - 902 rush yds Dunn - 16 GP - 1106 rush yds Duckett - 509 rush yds total - 2517 yds 2005 Vick - 597 rush yds Dunn - 16 GP - 1416 rush yds Duckett - 380 rush yds total - 2393 I'm not stretching anything. During the entire history of the Falcons Franchise they had never ranked #1 in both rushing yards & ypa until Alex Gibbs became the O'line Coach. You want to throw out the 2003 season when Vick was injured? Fine, we'll do that. The 2002 season when Vick was not injured and was the starting QB for 15 games, the Falcons ranked 4th in yards & 9th in ypa. Even if your argument is that Alex Gibbs really made no difference, that the Falcons were going to have the #1 rushing offense for yards & ypa whether Gibbs was there, or not, it was still a bad example to use to help prove your point that Coaching changes are overrated. Now if the Falcons run game had regressed, then using Gibbs would've been a good example. But the Falcons did not regress under Gibbs. They've improved to being the best running team in the NFL & Dunn has enjoyed career years running behind the Gibbs O'line system. (Gibbs only Coached the Atlanta O'line his 1st year with the Falcons and has stayed on in a consulting role) However, if you wish to continue thinking that Alex Gibbs coming to Atlanta, is a good example of a Coaching change being overrated, that is of course, your prerogative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 I'm not stretching anything. During the entire history of the Falcons Franchise they had never ranked #1 in both rushing yards & ypa until Alex Gibbs became the O'line Coach. You want to throw out the 2003 season when Vick was injured? Fine, we'll do that. The 2002 season when Vick was not injured and was the starting QB for 15 games, the Falcons ranked 4th in yards & 9th in ypa. Even if your argument is that Alex Gibbs really made no difference, that the Falcons were going to have the #1 rushing offense for yards & ypa whether Gibbs was there, or not, it was still a bad example to use to help prove your point that Coaching changes are overrated. Now if the Falcons run game had regressed, then using Gibbs would've been a good example. But the Falcons did not regress under Gibbs. They've improved to being the best running team in the NFL & Dunn has enjoyed career years running behind the Gibbs O'line system. (Gibbs only Coached the Atlanta O'line his 1st year with the Falcons and has stayed on in a consulting role) However, if you wish to continue thinking that Alex Gibbs coming to Atlanta, is a good example of a Coaching change being overrated, that is of course, your prerogative. that was Vick's 1st season as a starter....he didn't do much for the entire 1st half of the season... I remember watching a sunday night game...Falcons vs bengals.... it was completely boring.... and before that....they only ever really had jamal Anderson who was effective for about 3 seasons and didn't have anyone else running the ball to inflate total offensive rushing yds.... they've never had this strong of a ground attack (including the QB).... I dunno...I am tired of arguing I think...either that or I got a hugh dump coming.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 they've never had this strong of a ground attack (including the QB).... You're right in that they've never had a rushing QB as good as Vick, but they've had far better RB's than the Dunn & Duckett combo. Ever heard of Gerald Riggs or William Andrews for example? They've also had some very run oriented Coaches like Marion Campbell & Dan Henning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 You're right in that they've never had a rushing QB as good as Vick, but they've had far better RB's than the Dunn & Duckett combo. Ever heard of Gerald Riggs or William Andrews for example? They've also had some very run oriented Coaches like Marion Campbell & Dan Henning. but Duckett/Dunn can account for nearly 2000 yds or more and Vick can account for well over 500.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 I think I am done....this is like arguing the chicken and the egg theory....we could probably go at this for days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 but Duckett/Dunn can account for nearly 2000 yds or more and Vick can account for well over 500.... So in 2002, when all were on the Falcons roster & healthy, why wasn't the running game as good as it is today? What was different in 2004 - 2005, to 2002? Answer = Alex Gibbs. No matter how you cut or what you say, the fact of the matter is, once Alex Gibbs began Coaching the Atlanta O'line and instituted his zone blocking scheme ala Denver Broncos, the Falcons had both the NFL's #1 ranking for rushing yards & #1 ranking for rushing ypa. Dunn has also enjoyed career years. Again and for the last time, Alex Gibbs was probably the worst example you could have used, when trying to make your point of Coaching changes being overrated. However, as I said before, if you wish to continue thinking Gibbs is a good example of a Coaching change being overrated, that's certainly your prerogative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 mhm...you're right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 mhm...you're right... No, No. You don't have to agree with me. Like I said, if you wish to continue thinking that Alex Gibbs' move from Denver to Atlanta is a good example of a Coaching change being overrated, that's certainly your prerogative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 No, No. You don't have to agree with me. Like I said, if you wish to continue thinking that Alex Gibbs' move from Denver to Atlanta is a good example of a Coaching change being overrated, that's certainly your prerogative. lol...your previous answer was better... you just rambled more nonsense... just let it go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 lol...your previous answer was better... you just rambled more nonsense... just let it go... Ownership of Avernus complete in this thread. Thank you for playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Ownership of Avernus complete in this thread. Thank you for playing. no wonder you are considered a momo in the tailgate.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 no wonder you are considered a momo in the tailgate.... While you are merely considered a momo everywhere. This was a sad display by you. Once owned, you tried to claim yer master who owned you was not using facts, when all he did was continually eviscerate yer non-fact based bs with factual analysis. I think anyone who pays any attention to yer postings regarding NFL analysis is a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 While you are merely considered a momo everywhere. This was a sad display by you. Once owned, you tried to claim yer master who owned you was not using facts, when all he did was continually eviscerate yer non-fact based bs with factual analysis. I think anyone who pays any attention to yer postings regarding NFL analysis is a fool. that's fine...I don't know why you're still crying...nobody's talking about the skins....or you for that matter.... shew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 No, No. You don't have to agree with me. Like I said, if you wish to continue thinking that Alex Gibbs' move from Denver to Atlanta is a good example of a Coaching change being overrated, that's certainly your prerogative. lol...your previous answer was better... you just rambled more nonsense... just let it go... How is me saying that you being entitled to your opinion, is rambling & nonsense? Unless of course, you're saying that's what your opinion is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 How is me saying that you being entitled to your opinion, is rambling & nonsense? Unless of course, you're saying that's what your opinion is! you're still whining?.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 you're still whining?.... If trying to understand what you were saying in your post that I quoted is whining, then yeah, I guess I'm whining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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