On the union theme

[Ursa Majoris]

If you are going at the safety angle, then you can forget that to. The construction industry and it's clients have evolved. Now often times a companies experience modifier is as important if not more important than their price, at least at the commercial level. Companies can not afford to stay in business if they start having habitual "accidents", because their premiums will go up (which will affect their price) as well as their experience modifier going up (which will affect how clients view the company). Add to that that OSHA can now put the owner or CEO of repeat offenders in jail instead of just fining them, and the industry is really starting to clean up it's act. In addition to OSHA being able to cite the trade contractor who violated a regulation, they can also cite the General contractor as well, even if the general contractor's people are in compliance. This has cause most general contractors to be much more selective in choosing who they work with thus putting the trade contractors with bad safety records out of business. It is also causing more general contractors to hire more safety personnel to monitor the safety of their job sites.

Every word of this is true. Although me and Perch don't see eye to eye on most things, we're both in commercial construction. The emphasis on safety trumps everything.

[Coffeeman]

Soapbox time again:

 

In the for-profit sector, tying everyone's pay - and I mean everyone - more and more to the ultimate success of the company, measured as objectively as possible, (ie. EBITDA, not stock price,) is the only way to go. No long-term guarantees at all.

 

Lower salaries and higher performance bonuses overall, with some portion tied to the overall company profits and another portion tied to hitting department and personal goals, is the best deal. The higher the salaries and all-company bonus pools, the lower the motivation there is to making your personal mark on the company. In the ideal setup, everyone hangs together or they hang separately, as the old joke goes.

 

I'm in the insurance industry, and this is how ours is done now, after years of being too weighted toward salary and guaranteed bonuses, with little personal accountability. People now know they're competing (for growth in their personal income and promotional opps) both against people on the inside and our industry counterparts in general.

 

For government/non-profit sectors, its tied not to profits but some other objective goal, such as a weights for various things like number of students successfully placing in top colleges or full-time jobs, indexed for starting salaries secured. These would be reported fairly and accurately for all the schools in the district, state and national levels - and teachers and administrators rewarded accordingly. At least for high schools and/or colleges.

 

Forget test scores, unless you're talking about grade schools - they are a necessary evil until something else can be devised. The potential temptation for teacher and admin. to manipulate scores (without the proper basic teaching) needs to be addressed - otherwise the HS teachers will be facing an uphill battle when they receive the poorly prepared students that supposedly scored well.

 

That's it - the grade schools and Jr. HS would also be tied to the various HS's success - up the chain as it were - so that 'No child left behind' can have some REAL meaning! No student promotion to the next grade just to pump up a teacher's numbers - the overall is always put before the personal, but with some subjective/objective measures of your personal contritbution to the team's success.

 

The same can be done for other non-profit sectors, like the DMV (lowest local accident rate and insurance rates, anyone?) hospitals (lower mortality and 'bounce-back' rates,) police/fire (lower crime and severity of fire losses, ) etc., etc.

 

What do you think? Let's git er done, people. Of course its not easy, but maybe in a few decades (before I die?) we could see it begin to happen on a broad scale.

 

Anyone who runs for political office on this platform will have my vote, period.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Coffeeman

[Ursa Majoris]

In the for-profit sector, tying everyone's pay - and I mean everyone - more and more to the ultimate success of the company, measured as objectively as possible, (ie. EBITDA, not stock price,) is the only way to go. No long-term guarantees at all.

 

Lower salaries and higher performance bonuses overall, with some portion tied to the overall company profits and another portion tied to hitting department and personal goals, is the best deal. The higher the salaries and all-company bonus pools, the lower the motivation there is to making your personal mark on the company. In the ideal setup, everyone hangs together or they hang separately, as the old joke goes.

Wouldn't it be the case that if this was the norm, it would adversely affect the economy due to the lack of predictability of income? Just asking 'cos I'm not sure what the plusses and minuses of this whole thing are.

[Coffeeman]

Wouldn't it be the case that if this was the norm, it would adversely affect the economy due to the lack of predictability of income? Just asking 'cos I'm not sure what the plusses and minuses of this whole thing are.

Hopefully wiegie can chime in and bail me out here, but in layman's terms I believe tying it back to growth of the EBITDA (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) should be a good start. Because it ignores the use of most financial trickery after the basic earnings number to get to the bottom line 'net income' number - which is done all the time. Sarbanes-Oaxley should help here too.

 

Things like overpaying for an acquisition and charging too much to 'goodwill' can still impact it, I think, but like I said, its a start. And instead of income, a retailer, for instance, could use 'same store sales' to check true sales growth vs. growth due to new stores opening. (Starbucks would always look great with so many stores opening, but same store sales would help see the true picture.)

 

I'm not saying exactly how to do this, but its the overall concept that I'm championing here....

 

Edit to add: I just realized you may've been talking about the macro-economic impact, not the micro (i.e. one company). Whether you're talking about the macro or the micro, I assumed the overall pay by company and the economy would not change much, just the 'mix' of salary and bonuses.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Coffeeman

[Skippy]

I can tell you that the quality of work performed by non-union plumbers, pipefitters, and electricians is every bit as good if not better than their union counter-parts. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have their job. In addition to the quality being just as good, production is almost always better, because they are not always on break, and it doesn't take three people to operate a welding machine.

 

If you are going at the safety angle, then you can forget that to. The construction industry and it's clients have evolved. Now often times a companies experience modifier is as important if not more important than their price, at least at the commercial level. Companies can not afford to stay in business if they start having habitual "accidents", because their premiums will go up (which will affect their price) as well as their experience modifier going up (which will affect how clients view the company). Add to that that OSHA can now put the owner or CEO of repeat offenders in jail instead of just fining them, and the industry is really starting to clean up it's act. In addition to OSHA being able to cite the trade contractor who violated a regulation, they can also cite the General contractor as well, even if the general contractor's people are in compliance. This has cause most general contractors to be much more selective in choosing who they work with thus putting the trade contractors with bad safety records out of business. It is also causing more general contractors to hire more safety personnel to monitor the safety of their job sites.

This is painted with a very broad brush, Perch. I have some friends that are not union that are Plumbers. They are just as you suggest, very good, competent and work in a very safe way. They are lucky to work for a pretty top notch private company that is not union. I also know TONS of non union plumbers and fitters that are the exact opposite. The bottom line for the company is to push for the most in the shortest time. Often times I have seen a young kid down in a trench without any brace. Have you ever seen this? I have dug a 22 year old out of one that collapsed about 10 years ago. That is not the only kid that I have heard about a trench collapsing on. That 22 year old that I mentioned is now an organizer for the plumbers union. He had four years with the company when this accident happened and only then was his eyes opened. I know you are in the construction field but if you work with plumbers and fitters and can't tell a union job from a non union job then there is something special going on down in you neck of the woods. It normally takes me about five minutes to see that a job is not union by any number of safety violations that stick out like a sore thumb.

 

And for the record before everyone suggests what a great job OSHA does they had better understand that any state or local government employee will not ever see an OSHA rep on a job site. 19 years and I have never ever had one visit one of my job sites.

 

I am not going to get dragged down into these union threads because the majority of the non union people can not seem to understand that the organized are the reason that they have what they have. For a lot of people the threat of becoming organized is enough to keep a company in check. A company that is clean and is not out to screw any employee should never fear that employee being part of a union. If they fear that union then they are trying to circumvent simple work rules like an 8 hour work day, IMHO.

[Ursa Majoris]

And for the record before everyone suggests what a great job OSHA does they had better understand that any state or local government employee will not ever see an OSHA rep on a job site. 19 years and I have never ever had one visit one of my job sites.

 

I am not going to get dragged down into these union threads because the majority of the non union people can not seem to understand that the organized are the reason that they have what they have. For a lot of people the threat of becoming organized is enough to keep a company in check. A company that is clean and is not out to screw any employee should never fear that employee being part of a union. If they fear that union then they are trying to circumvent simple work rules like an 8 hour work day, IMHO.

Don't know what's going on over there in Ohio but OSHA is VERY active where we do our work, and that's nationwide. We have a world class safety record, fortunately.

 

Agree about the unions being (part of) the reason we are where we are. It's beyond question that without the ability to punch above one's weight by having the collective power of everyone working together to force companies to treat workers better, we'd still be in the Gilded Age.

 

Maybe that's what the new Barons really want.

[Skippy]

It is Pittsburgh Ursa and if you talk to anyone that works for local or state goverment you will find out that while OSHA might be live and well on any jobsite that I can spit at, they are not going to come to mine and never will. OSHA does not cover local and state goverment workers.

[rocknrobn26]

This is painted with a very broad brush, Perch. I have some friends that are not union that are Plumbers. They are just as you suggest, very good, competent and work in a very safe way. They are lucky to work for a pretty top notch private company that is not union. I also know TONS of non union plumbers and fitters that are the exact opposite. The bottom line for the company is to push for the most in the shortest time. Often times I have seen a young kid down in a trench without any brace. Have you ever seen this? I have dug a 22 year old out of one that collapsed about 10 years ago. That is not the only kid that I have heard about a trench collapsing on. That 22 year old that I mentioned is now an organizer for the plumbers union. He had four years with the company when this accident happened and only then was his eyes opened. I know you are in the construction field but if you work with plumbers and fitters and can't tell a union job from a non union job then there is something special going on down in you neck of the woods. It normally takes me about five minutes to see that a job is not union by any number of safety violations that stick out like a sore thumb.

 

And for the record before everyone suggests what a great job OSHA does they had better understand that any state or local government employee will not ever see an OSHA rep on a job site. 19 years and I have never ever had one visit one of my job sites.

 

I am not going to get dragged down into these union threads because the majority of the non union people can not seem to understand that the organized are the reason that they have what they have. For a lot of people the threat of becoming organized is enough to keep a company in check. A company that is clean and is not out to screw any employee should never fear that employee being part of a union. If they fear that union then they are trying to circumvent simple work rules like an 8 hour work day, IMHO.

 

Good one, Skip! Read below....

 

 

Don't know what's going on over there in Ohio but OSHA is VERY active where we do our work, and that's nationwide. We have a world class safety record, fortunately.

 

Agree about the unions being (part of) the reason we are where we are. It's beyond question that without the ability to punch above one's weight by having the collective power of everyone working together to force companies to treat workers better, we'd still be in the Gilded Age.

 

Maybe that's what the new Barons really want.

 

Absolutely!

OSHA does NOT cover/have enforcement over state/local entities. Yup, that's a fact! I was being sued years ago by a student for supposed "Safety Violations". No need for details (very long story), but this hunyuck found that out quickly. It was turned over to the Illinois Dept. of Labor or some state office. In so many words, this state office couldn't have cared less about the students safety, as they came in to check MY safety! We got a clean bill of health to the max, but it turns out a student has no gubment entity to turn to if the feel their safety is at issue!

[Ursa Majoris]

It is Pittsburgh Ursa and if you talk to anyone that works for local or state goverment you will find out that while OSHA might be live and well on any jobsite that I can spit at, they are not going to come to mine and never will. OSHA does not cover local and state goverment workers.

Didn't know that. Still, by way of an excuse, I'm in the IT Dept.

 

And I attended the ABWF School of Geography.

[Perchoutofwater]

This is painted with a very broad brush, Perch. I have some friends that are not union that are Plumbers. They are just as you suggest, very good, competent and work in a very safe way. They are lucky to work for a pretty top notch private company that is not union. I also know TONS of non union plumbers and fitters that are the exact opposite. The bottom line for the company is to push for the most in the shortest time. Often times I have seen a young kid down in a trench without any brace. Have you ever seen this? I have dug a 22 year old out of one that collapsed about 10 years ago. That is not the only kid that I have heard about a trench collapsing on. That 22 year old that I mentioned is now an organizer for the plumbers union. He had four years with the company when this accident happened and only then was his eyes opened. I know you are in the construction field but if you work with plumbers and fitters and can't tell a union job from a non union job then there is something special going on down in you neck of the woods. It normally takes me about five minutes to see that a job is not union by any number of safety violations that stick out like a sore thumb.

 

And for the record before everyone suggests what a great job OSHA does they had better understand that any state or local government employee will not ever see an OSHA rep on a job site. 19 years and I have never ever had one visit one of my job sites.

 

I used to see all kinds of things 20 years ago that are violations today. When I was a kid I would ride the ball of a crane up to the top of a 6 story building, or stand out on the fork of a sky track 30' above ground. Of course I had the sense to use a lanyard even when I was 13 or 14. We didn't think anything of it. I highly doubt that our family owned business was trying to place the on site production above my personal safety. Things change. You learn from your mistakes and the mistakes of others. Now around here all trenches deeper than 5' either have trench boxes in place, an engineered retention system, or are sloped back at a 45 provided that the soils are suitable to that.

 

We are by far the largest local contractor in our area (big fish in a little pond). Most of our projects are high profile for our area, and we usually get a surprise OSHA inspection at least twice a year. We've been in business about twice as long as OSHA has been around, and we have never received an OSHA citation. If an employee feels that we or any other contractor is asking them to do something that is unsafe all they have to do is call the 800 number to OSHA that is required by law to be posted on every job, and OSHA will be out there within an hour or two. In addition to this, if someone (read competitor) sees unsafe practices while driving past a job site they can call OSHA as well. All of these calls can be made anonymously.

 

We have worked with union and non-union trade contractors, and I will admit 20 years ago there was a big difference in the way safety was viewed by two. Today there isn't. The only difference today is that non-union trade contractors are cheaper and more productive. It has nothing to do with cutting corners with regard to safety, as we will not allow them to do such on our projects. It has every thing to do with not taking a break every hour, only having to have one guy working on a jack hammer, instead of one guy working on the hammer, one guy to handle the hoses, and one guy check the fluids of the compressor. Unions are inefficient, not because of their demands on safety, but on their demands on compartmentalizing everything, taking twice as many breaks, and their inability to get rid of under-performing members.

 

What you say may be true regarding people employed by state and local governments. I know that it it isn't true for private contractors working on state and local government projects. If you are saying that we need unions to keep the employees of state and local governments safe, then you might have a point, but I would counter that it would be more cost effective, and just as safe to get rid of the unions and to give OSHA jurisdiction over them.

 

Unions had there place back in the day. They probably did more for the safety of workers than anything. That being said, they have out lived their usefulness. Between OSHA and insurance companies, not to mention just personal morality, there is more than enough incentive to provide a safe work place in the construction industry. Unions were originally founded to provide a safe work environment, that has been accomplished, and now they have out lived their usefulness. I have worked with both union and non-union trade contractors on numerous occasions, and honestly there is no difference between the two in regards to safety, but there is a big difference in regards to production.