Here we ga again

[McBoog]

Get a life.

 

 

How's that F350 ridin' these days?

[detlef]

I agree 100%, but that should go for all dogs not just pits. No person should own a pit if they are not fully aware & capable to handle it when/if it gets out of hand. But the truth is most of the people who own them aren't & they think the dog is "just a big baby" until the dogs aggressive nature comes out. What's worse is there is no way to regulate or "ban" these dogs. There will never be any kind of enforceable regulation on these dogs & even if there was then you would have to include other dogs as well. The only thing that can be done is to make owners responsible for their dogs.

I think this is the fairest way to handle it. I'm as outspoken as the next guy about the dangers of Pits and laugh at those who make strawman arguments about how they're no worse than the next breed, etc. I recall a particular comment the last time we went around in response to a story about a pit that was treated lovingly by its family to the extent that they let it sleep on the bed that snapped one day and mangled one of the kids. The response? That they shouldn't have let the dog on the bed because that made the dog confused about its place in the family. I guess I don't have enough faith in my fellow man to think that they're going to do everything 100% the right way with a dog like this so I'm more than a bit concerned that even among those Pits who are not trained to fight, that there's one or two that might be a bit "confused".

 

Of course, in much the same manner that I've softened on gun control, I have to soften on this. Mind you, I do realize that the guns don't kill people, people kill people makes way more sense than the dog equivalent.

 

I do firmly believe that pit owners fall into three categories. A-holes who want a fighting dog. Idiots who have no idea the degree to which they're endangering their families and neighbors, and a tiny, tiny, tiny group who are doing things 100% the right way and have managed to truly turn this dog into a safe and lovable creature. Unfortunately, my guess is that there's a bunch of people who think they fit into group 3 who are actually in group 2.

 

So, if you punish the hell. I mean really, really punish the hell out of owners if their dog attacks, this might change things.

IIRC, in most states a dog gets one bite before being considered a dangerous animal. After it's bitten someone once, you are liable for the damages. My assertion would be that perhaps pits should be considered dangerous period - without the first bite. I don't really know, though, since I'm a big live and let live person. I know I wouldn't ever have one.

With regard to this, the problem with any breed specific laws is that they're impossible to enforce. I think what you need to do is treat it like theft where the punishment varies with the degree of damage. If your dog bites someone but its no biggie, then you're punished to a degree. If your dog really f's someone up, you're in jail. Sure, sucks for you, but not nearly as much as some kid with his ass cheek grafted to his face.

Edited December 23, 2008 by detlef

[westvirginia]

I think this is the fairest way to handle it. I'm as outspoken as the next guy about the dangers of Pits and laugh at those who make strawman arguments about how they're no worse than the next breed, etc. I recall a particular comment the last time we went around in response to a story about a pit that was treated lovingly by its family to the extent that they let it sleep on the bed that snapped one day and mangled one of the kids. The response? That they shouldn't have let the dog on the bed because that made the dog confused about its place in the family. I guess I don't have enough faith in my fellow man to think that they're going to do everything 100% the right way with a dog like this so I'm more than a bit concerned that even among those Pits who are not trained to fight, that there's one or two that might be a bit "confused".

 

Of course, in much the same manner that I've softened on gun control, I have to soften on this. Mind you, I do realize that the guns don't kill people, people kill people makes way more sense than the dog equivalent.

 

I do firmly believe that pit owners fall into three categories. A-holes who want a fighting dog. Idiots who have no idea the degree to which they're endangering their families and neighbors, and a tiny, tiny, tiny group who are doing things 100% the right way and have managed to truly turn this dog into a safe and lovable creature. Unfortunately, my guess is that there's a bunch of people who think they fit into group 3 who are actually in group 2.

 

So, if you punish the hell. I mean really, really punish the hell out of owners if their dog attacks, this might change things.

 

With regard to this, the problem with any breed specific laws is that they're impossible to enforce. I think what you need to do is treat it like theft where the punishment varies with the degree of damage. If your dog bites someone but its no biggie, then you're punished to a degree. If your dog really f's someone up, you're in jail. Sure, sucks for you, but not nearly as much as some kid with his ass cheek grafted to his face.

 

Very well said - all around.

[gbpfan1231]

I think this is the fairest way to handle it. I'm as outspoken as the next guy about the dangers of Pits and laugh at those who make strawman arguments about how they're no worse than the next breed, etc. I recall a particular comment the last time we went around in response to a story about a pit that was treated lovingly by its family to the extent that they let it sleep on the bed that snapped one day and mangled one of the kids. The response? That they shouldn't have let the dog on the bed because that made the dog confused about its place in the family. I guess I don't have enough faith in my fellow man to think that they're going to do everything 100% the right way with a dog like this so I'm more than a bit concerned that even among those Pits who are not trained to fight, that there's one or two that might be a bit "confused".

 

Of course, in much the same manner that I've softened on gun control, I have to soften on this. Mind you, I do realize that the guns don't kill people, people kill people makes way more sense than the dog equivalent.

 

I do firmly believe that pit owners fall into three categories. A-holes who want a fighting dog. Idiots who have no idea the degree to which they're endangering their families and neighbors, and a tiny, tiny, tiny group who are doing things 100% the right way and have managed to truly turn this dog into a safe and lovable creature. Unfortunately, my guess is that there's a bunch of people who think they fit into group 3 who are actually in group 2.

 

So, if you punish the hell. I mean really, really punish the hell out of owners if their dog attacks, this might change things.

 

With regard to this, the problem with any breed specific laws is that they're impossible to enforce. I think what you need to do is treat it like theft where the punishment varies with the degree of damage. If your dog bites someone but its no biggie, then you're punished to a degree. If your dog really f's someone up, you're in jail. Sure, sucks for you, but not nearly as much as some kid with his ass cheek grafted to his face.

Very well said.

 

One thing I don't understand is when a breed of dog is so dangerous and requires 100% perfect training or the circumstances are dangerous - why have this breed? What does a Pit Bull give you that a different breed does not? Some dogs are great for hunting and I see why you would want that specific breed for that specific purpose. What does a Pit Bull have that you can't get in a different breed where the worst case scenario isn't nearly as dangerous?

[detlef]

Very well said.

 

One thing I don't understand is when a breed of dog is so dangerous and requires 100% perfect training or the circumstances are dangerous - why have this breed? What does a Pit Bull give you that a different breed does not? Some dogs are great for hunting and I see why you would want that specific breed for that specific purpose. What does a Pit Bull have that you can't get in a different breed where the worst case scenario isn't nearly as dangerous?

If you're asking "why have that breed" in respect to "why would a person choose to own that breed", then your guess is as good as mine. I can't imagine having a life so easy that I would voluntarily take on the task of training something so predisposed to violence or, at very least, so dangerously powerful should it turn to violence even if it were no more predisposed, to be docile and friendly. Seems like a ton of work when there are breeds more inclined to meet you halfway.

[gbpfan1231]

If you're asking "why have that breed" in respect to "why would a person choose to own that breed", then your guess is as good as mine. I can't imagine having a life so easy that I would voluntarily take on the task of training something so predisposed to violence or, at very least, so dangerously powerful should it turn to violence even if it were no more predisposed, to be docile and friendly. Seems like a ton of work when there are breeds more inclined to meet you halfway.

That is exactly what I am thinking. I am not a dog expert and maybe there are traits in Pit Bulls that don't exist in other dogs but I can't think of any.

[McBoog]

That is exactly what I am thinking. I am not a dog expert and maybe there are traits in Pit Bulls that don't exist in other dogs but I can't think of any.

 

They are ugly, have little work dog use and are not particularly bright. Most people own them because of the reputation. They don't know what they are getting into and are incapable of living up to the responsibility. If you want an ugly dog, the Boxer, Bulldog (ultra stooopid but very loving) and the dog de bourdeax (spelling is off, but it is a french dog that was used in the movie Turner & Hooch . All are cool dogs that are "family safe".

 

How often do you see a Pit in a hospital as a therapy dog or used as a guide dog? You don't because they are crap with strangers and too stupid to keep their blind owner from getting run over by a truck. Me. Give me a Visla or a Golden Retriever any day. Both are bright, smart, loving family dogs that have good field use and are superior with children and the elderly. They only time they get twitchy is when someone messes with their "peeps".

[Perchoutofwater]

If you want an ugly dog, the Boxer, Bulldog (ultra stooopid but very loving) and the dog de bourdeax (spelling is off, but it is a french dog that was used in the movie Turner & Hooch . All are cool dogs that are "family safe".

 

Boxers are great looking dogs, and contrary to what you believe they are not stoopid, they are hyper if not given enough attention, but very intelligent. I have two of them. A 4 year old female and a 8 month old male. The female is one of the best behaved dogs you have ever seen with a $hit your pants bark when anyone gets near my kids or my front door. The 8 month old male is hyper will jump on anyone that comes in the back yard and is about to go away for training for a few weeks, so he will act like the female. The female usually sleeps with my oldest daughter.

 

Boxers are friendly, lively companions that are popular as family dogs.Their suspicion of strangers, alertness, agility, and strength make them formidable guard dogs. They sometimes appear at dog agility or obedience trials and flyball events. These strong and intelligent animals have also been used as service dogs, guide dogs for the blind, therapy dogs, police dogs in K9 units, and occasionally herding cattle or sheep. The versatility of Boxers was recognized early on by the military, which has used them as valuable messenger dogs, pack carriers, and attack and guard dogs in times of war. - Wikpedia

[Azazello1313]

Statistics by breed. As one would expect Pit Bulls lead the list by a large margin followed by Rottwielers, and German Shepards, with German Shepards being responsible for 1/3 of the Deaths of Pit Bulls. Check out page 3.

 

yup. and there are probably many times more german shepards out there than pit bulls, and they are considered to be a very protective, potentially aggressive breed themselves. there is always some risk with all dogs. that risk is inordinately higher with a breed still bred predominantly for fighting, maiming and killing. I am sure good training can go some measure toward reducing that risk. but even then the risk is still way, way higher than it is with any other breed. I'd be all for banning them except in cases where they have papers going back several generations through reputable breeders. and even then, anyone who lets them around their kids is exhibiting a level of recklessness that should be criminal IMO.

[McBoog]

Boxers are great looking dogs, and contrary to what you believe they are not stoopid , they are hyper if not given enough attention, but very intelligent. I have two of them. A 4 year old female and a 8 month old male. The female is one of the best behaved dogs you have ever seen with a $hit your pants bark when anyone gets near my kids or my front door. The 8 month old male is hyper will jump on anyone that comes in the back yard and is about to go away for training for a few weeks, so he will act like the female. The female usually sleeps with my oldest daughter.

 

Boxers are friendly, lively companions that are popular as family dogs.Their suspicion of strangers, alertness, agility, and strength make them formidable guard dogs. They sometimes appear at dog agility or obedience trials and flyball events. These strong and intelligent animals have also been used as service dogs, guide dogs for the blind, therapy dogs, police dogs in K9 units, and occasionally herding cattle or sheep. The versatility of Boxers was recognized early on by the military, which has used them as valuable messenger dogs, pack carriers, and attack and guard dogs in times of war. - Wikpedia

 

Dude. Ummmm. Panties in a twist! I love Boxers and called Bulldogs stoooopid (not stupid). Boxers are one of my favorite breeds and when I say "ugly", I mean the saggy face, big jowl, slobber factories. I too think they are a handsome animal and they are VERY athletic and loyal. As a kid, I used to go over to a neighbors house and play with theirs every day before we moved away and could get a dog of our own (a Vizsla, my Gramps used to breed and train them). Leaving him behind was the hardest part about moving as I recall.

 

Bulldogs are fearless to a fault, but a little slow on the uptake. A friend of mine has had them his whole life. They too are great, lovable and loyal pets. One of his, "Rocko", was sitting in the entryway of his house when we took off for about six hours. When we came back, he was sitting in THE EXACT SAME SPOT IN THE EXACT SAME POSITION, staring at the door. When we walked in, he sighed and then laid down with a low, almost whispering rrrwoof! A crack up of an animal, but have that lovable "ugly" to them as well. Oh, and they fart.. A LOT. Rocko could clear a house in a blizzard.

 

Both the Boxer and the Bulldog, as well as the Dogue de Bordeaux are members of the Mastiff group. I will admit that my encounters with these very cool dogs is limited. But, the few that I have known are quirky, and almost "natural comedians". Very fun animals when controlled properly. They are a BIG dog, and if not controlled, they are not so much dangerous as they are "brutish". Stout, strong and fun loving, they can get carried away while playing and could accidentally hurt someone because of their power and exuberance. Inside they are carpet bumps and not very active. They have a funny way of following the indoor action with their eyes as opposed to turning their heads to look at things. The effect in itself is comical. Once you get them outside and moving, watch out, high energy and a load to deal with. This would be a great dog for a family that has their kids at or past the 10 YO plus age.

 

The American Pit Bull Terrier is actually a member of the Mastiff family as well. Breeding and history of the different Mastiffs is important to take into account for their modern day position in human society. In general, I am a pretty big fan of most Mastiff breeds. It takes generations of limited and careful selective breeding to change the disposition of a breed. Since that has not occurred with the Pit, as a family safe dog, it is a good 75 to 100 years behind the curve in terms of being a dog, IMHO, worthy of a place in regular dog ownership. I will NOT let my children near these animals and will not go to a home that has them, unless they are locked away. I have personally seen these animals go sideways too many times to risk myself, family or friends. I have sadly had to kill three of these dogs because their dipsh!t owners were unable to control them while we were issuing search or arrest warrants. Despite my dislike for the breed, I do have compassion for the individual animal and these are "scars" I will carry with me forever.

 

As has been mentioned above, other than the reputation of the Pit, I have no idea why anyone would want one. There are so many breeds, even within the Mastiff family (see above), that gives the same general look but are much safer and adaptive to human family needs.

 

I mention the Golden and the Vizsla above because of their superior behavior and protectiveness of children and their versatility as a work dog in the field and for companion work. My twins could pull on the coat and ears, poke the eys and climb all over Chester (The "Boog" part of my screen name McBoog", a Golden Retriever) and smile and kiss and love the attention. NEVER did it cross my mind he would EVER hurt them. But, let a stranger get too close without being acknowledged by me first in a friendly way and it was best to take a wide berth around him (and the kids). Goldens also LOVE the water and seem happiest when they are swimming. Some dogs get stinky if you bath them or get them wet too often. Goldens are the opposite. They need the water. Chester would actually "play" (at least try to, even going under water) with the seals in San Diego when I would take him to the beach. The seals would just tease him, but I think they were "playing" back.

 

The Vizsla is a little known breed, but you won't find a better field and family dog in the same package, They were bred by the Hungarian Royalty to specifically babysit their children and work as both pointer and retriever in the field. I grew up with these dogs and have not had one in my adult life only because my wife prefers the Goldens. My boyhood companion was a Vizsla named Brock. Even my dad had to make sure Brock was not around if he had to discipline me. Dad raised his hand to give me "the mighty swat" once, and Brock bared his teeth at my dad, basically warning him that I was his child, not my father's. Needless to say, I always felt VERY safe when Brock was with me, even when I got lost in the woods for a day and had to spend the night under a tree. He was a great pillow! We (more like he) found the way home the next morning. Dad was not pleased, but let it slide for probably many reasons. These dogs take to children and stick with them like magnets. Also tolerant and loving, I would trust my children around ANY Vizsla in a heartbeat. Brock used to kill any snake that got within hearing distance of me in the woods of the Appalachian Mountains around Big Run, PA (near Punxsutawney). These are very energetic dogs with a lot of stamina and need exercise DAILY. If you cannot commit to this, they will drive you nuts and are not a good fit for you. Another great dog for kids, especially if you have room for them to all run and roam free together. As with all gun dogs (including the Golden) make sure you "gun train" them early. Once they hit about 6 to 8 months, it is hard to get any dog used to gunfire if they have not been exposed early.

 

Merry Christmas Everyone!