muck Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 ...capitalism... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 She is rebutting someone saying "laissez-faire capitalism is a failure" by saying "It's better than communism!" It's the same "If you don't think like me, you must be for the stupidest thing I can imagine" argument made famous by right-wing radio and H8Tank, and it's totally played out. She doesn't need to defend capitalism. She needs to defend the lack of regulation, and she does that poorly. The banking crisis of recent years can all be at least partially attributed to reduced regulation and oversight leading to banks taking on too much risk for short term gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 She doesn't need to defend capitalism. She needs to defend the lack of regulation, and she does that poorly. The banking crisis of recent years can all be at least partially attributed to reduced regulation and oversight leading to banks taking on too much risk for short term gain. If by "less regulation" you mean "regulators, congress and other governmental and quasi-governmental agencies not enforcing laws on the books already due to incompetence, ignorance, laziness and/or greed", then I agree with you. We have plenty of laws on the books; we juet need to streamline what is there and then ENFORCE them. The sheer complexity of the regulatory environment makes it difficult for the regulators to regulate and for the operators to operate. Congress has done a poor job of overseeing this important process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) Congress has done a poor job of overseeing this important process. Congress doesn't enforce laws. The Legislative branch writes the laws. The Judicial branch interprets the laws. The Executive branch enforces laws. Are you blaming Bush? Edited December 30, 2008 by AtomicCEO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 If by "less regulation" you mean "regulators, congress and other governmental and quasi-governmental agencies not enforcing laws on the books already due to incompetence, ignorance, laziness and/or greed", then I agree with you. We have plenty of laws on the books; we juet need to streamline what is there and then ENFORCE them. The sheer complexity of the regulatory environment makes it difficult for the regulators to regulate and for the operators to operate. Congress has done a poor job of overseeing this important process. Muck, I don't think you, as a professional finance person, have ever pointed a finger at the professional finance people who really are responsible for this fiasco. The analysts, the dealers, the derivative whizkids, the managers asleep at the wheel, the whole short-term, "next-quarter-is-all-that-matters" brigade - these are the people that committed the crimes, not the regulators, not the politicians, not the police and certainly not those of us that actually do productive work instead of making up artificial financial instruments. None of the above gave two chits about driving the whole economy off a cliff just as long as they got paid now. I reiterate, I would not regulate them, I would select one in every ten and publicly execute them in the street, pour encourager the other nine. It's the same with SOX. All that is ever heard is how onerous it is for business blah blah blah. That's because it was cobbled together by Congress as a direct result of yet another failure by business to regulate itself, leading to yet more ruin for little guys and riches for the guilty (the ones that aren't dead or in jail). If business could manage properly and auditors were actually auditing, SOX wouldn't be necessary. It's long past time the laissez-faire apologists got off their collective duff and admitted that the system flat out won't work without regulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Well, I haven't read the link, but I kinda want to beat up muck for using "pithy" in the thread title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackass Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Well, I haven't read the link, but I kinda want to beat up muck for using "pithy" in the thread title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Muck, I don't think you, as a professional finance person, have ever pointed a finger at the professional finance people who really are responsible for this fiasco. The analysts, the dealers, the derivative whizkids, the managers asleep at the wheel, the whole short-term, "next-quarter-is-all-that-matters" brigade... Eh, blaming Wall Street whiz kids for chasing profits of questionable legality is like getting mad at your cat for coughing up a hairball.* * - a $1 trillion hairball, at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 (edited) Muck, I don't think you, as a professional finance person, have ever pointed a finger at the professional finance people who really are responsible for this fiasco. The analysts, the dealers, the derivative whizkids, the managers asleep at the wheel, the whole short-term, "next-quarter-is-all-that-matters" brigade - these are the people that committed the crimes, not the regulators, not the politicians, not the police and certainly not those of us that actually do productive work instead of making up artificial financial instruments. None of the above gave two chits about driving the whole economy off a cliff just as long as they got paid now. I reiterate, I would not regulate them, I would select one in every ten and publicly execute them in the street, pour encourager the other nine. It's the same with SOX. All that is ever heard is how onerous it is for business blah blah blah. That's because it was cobbled together by Congress as a direct result of yet another failure by business to regulate itself, leading to yet more ruin for little guys and riches for the guilty (the ones that aren't dead or in jail). If business could manage properly and auditors were actually auditing, SOX wouldn't be necessary. It's long past time the laissez-faire apologists got off their collective duff and admitted that the system flat out won't work without regulation. Eh, blaming Wall Street whiz kids for chasing profits of questionable legality is like getting mad at your cat for coughing up a hairball.* * - a $1 trillion hairball, at that. Analogy (albeit not perfect): Regulator = guy on a boat Finance guy = shark in the water If the guy on the boat throws a bloody steak in the water (i.e., poorly conceived laws and ineffective regulations), who's fault is it if the shark eats the steak. ................. Now, as said above, I know that the analogy isn't perfect. People (even finance types) have brains and supposedly a moral compass. It would be great if they used them from time to time. I've never pointed a finger at the finance types and tried to excoriate them because they are not in control of setting the rules. If you want the game played a certain way, set the rules and then enforce them. If you make bad rules and/or do not make sure the rules that are in place are followed closely, it's much more difficult to empathize with calls of unfair play. Finance guys = guilty of a bunch of bad stuff, a big hunk of which was the result of the toxic mixture of poorly conceived regulation / legislation, ineffective regulators / legislators, creativity, intellect, no morals and greed Regulators / legislators = guilty of a bunch of bad stuff, a big hunk of which was the result of ignorance, arrogance, laziness, greed and power Most everyone else = screwed by the actions of others for things they had nearly no control over Edited December 31, 2008 by muck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 If you want the game played a certain way, set the rules and then enforce them. This statement makes me want to regulate finance back to the stone age. You're going to need to have 15 stages of government approval to sell a share of Google and it will take a year. Which is interesting considering the article you posted was in defense of deregulation. What is this thread about again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 People (even finance types) have brains and supposedly a moral compass. It would be great if they used them from time to time. Yes, wouldn't it. Decimation would cure that problem. I've never pointed a finger at the finance types and tried to excoriate them because they are not in control of setting the rules. If you want the game played a certain way, set the rules and then enforce them. If you make bad rules and/or do not make sure the rules that are in place are followed closely, it's much more difficult to empathize with calls of unfair play. Sure they are. There's a rule called common sense for a start. Lending money to people who were total locks to be unable to pay it back is just one breach of that rule. Another is not having a clue what your company has bought (derivatives). Most everyone else = screwed by the actions of others for things they had nearly no control over And there's the issue. If it's too much to ask that these people take a longer view than 3 months, then regulation is the only way to go. I'd start with bonuses being predicated only on a minimum of 3 years performance and stage bonuses so that the longer the high performance, the greater the bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 Lookit. I ain't the problem, here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Lookit. I ain't the problem, here. Never said you were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Lookit. I ain't the problem, here. Dammit Muck, why did you tank my 401K!!! If my retired mom has to move in with me, I am going to hunt you down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 The whole system is a cluster. I've tried to decipher what blame lies where and it seems to be a mixed bag. Government has fallen down on the job of regulation and inserted itself into areas that should have been left alone. We have not had a truly free market for a very long time. If not sure we'd be better off now if had had one all along. Businesses and individuals have plundered trillions. Now we have congress completely ignoring the people they're supposed to represent and and executive branch doing what it damn well pleases when congress doesn't do what it thinks it should. Meanwhile the president in waiting is formulating a plan to spend another trillion dollars we don't have. I'm just waiting for the illicit photos of Obama, Bush, Pelosi and various farm animals engaged in a tangled mass of idiot, feather and fur on the lap of the Lincoln Memorial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billay Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Christopher Cox has got to be on somebody payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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