Clubfoothead Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 So you think that the threat of having to pay 10 or 30 grand or so in legal fees is going to bring a corporation/insurance company to the table? I'm not sure what your experiences are, but where I come from: 1) no insurance company pays anything to make a case "go away;" 2) no insurance company settles a case quickly or early in the litigation; 3) not many lawyers will take a case expecting an insurance company to pay a small amount to make the case "go away;" 4) frivolous lawsuits are extremely rare; and 5) almost every tort case is a "tweener" to some extent A loser pays rule will effect legitmate claims moreso than so called frivolous claims. Are you going to take a 20% chance to have to remortgage your house or spend your nest egg to pursue a lawsuit on behalf of an injured family member? There is no real way to determine this, but I bet that for evry 'frivolous" case in which a plaintiff gets a significant jury verdict, there are at least 100 cases in which a deserving plaintiff gets nothing from the jury. The thing is, those cases don't make the papers. Slow down, we are still trying to calculate how much California owes OJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 mcdonald's was "punished" in this case for serving coffee at 180-190 degrees fahrenheit. the national coffee association recommends coffee be brewed at 195-205 and drunk immediately, or, if it can't be served immediately, should be maintained at 180-185 degrees. Does the national coffee association also recommend passing that freshly brewed boiling coffee into a moving vehicle in a paper cup? I bet they don't. That would be plain silly. Because it's just common sense that the optimal consumption temperature for coffee might have to be modified for safety depending on whether you're in a cafe with a scone and a clay mug, or if you're in a moving '82 Datsun with a paper cup . Damn, your argument made so much sense until it was applied to reality. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 By the way, this case is a loser. Most courses and scorecards have a disclaimer about "you are responsible for your ball". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Does the national coffee association also recommend passing that freshly brewed boiling coffee into a moving vehicle in a paper cup? I bet they don't. That would be plain silly. Because it's just common sense that the optimal consumption temperature for coffee might have to be modified for safety depending on whether you're in a cafe with a scone and a clay mug, or if you're in a moving '82 Datsun with a paper cup . Damn, your argument made so much sense until it was applied to reality. . mcdonald's still serves its coffee at between 176 and 194 degrees. starbucks drivethroughs, wendy's, dunkin donuts and burger king all serve their coffee at the same or higher temperatures. you see, this is because coffee tastes like ass if it's not hot enough to burn you, and they won't sell any otherwise. is that real enough for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 is that real enough for you? It's totally real Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 mcdonald's still serves its coffee at between 176 and 194 degrees. starbucks drivethroughs, wendy's, dunkin donuts and burger king all serve their coffee at the same or higher temperatures. you see, this is because coffee tastes like ass if it's not hot enough to burn you, and they won't sell any otherwise. is that real enough for you? What's you hot water heater set at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 mcdonald's still serves its coffee at between 176 and 194 degrees. starbucks drivethroughs, wendy's, dunkin donuts and burger king all serve their coffee at the same or higher temperatures. you see, this is because coffee tastes like ass if it's not hot enough to burn you, and they won't sell any otherwise. is that real enough for you? Alright, you got me to do it. I actually looked it up and found out that you're lying. Congrats for making me put effort into it. You link gives a brewing and holding temperature, not a serving or drinking temperature. Recommended serving temp for coffee: 155 to 175. McDonalds old serving temp: 180-190 Passing something that is 30 degrees too hot and enough to give 3rd degree burns through a car window in a paper cup is a poor idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Alright, you got me to do it. I actually looked it up and found out that you're lying. Congrats for making me put effort into it. You link gives a brewing and holding temperature, not a serving or drinking temperature. Recommended serving temp for coffee: 155 to 175. McDonalds old serving temp: 180-190 Passing something that is 30 degrees too hot and enough to give 3rd degree burns through a car window in a paper cup is a poor idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fingfootball Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) The bottom line is that coffee is hot, and everybody knows coffee is hot. And it is ridiculous that someone gets paid $640,000 because they bought hot coffee and spilled it in their lap. Edited February 6, 2009 by fingfootball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 its never your fault. ever!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 The bottom line is that coffee is hot, and everybody knows coffee is hot. And it is ridiculous that someone gets paid $640,000 because they bought hot coffee and spilled it in their lap. Unless that one case is the culmination of years of ignoring warnings, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fingfootball Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Unless that one case is the culmination of years of ignoring warnings, of course. Is that the message we want to pass on to our kids? I would rather pass on to have some common sense, coffee is hot, you might slip and fall on a wet floor, if you give your suit to a dry cleaner they might lose it. These lawsuits are basically telling us and our kids that if you have an accident at a profitable bussiness that you win the lottery. For myself and my family, we will earn what we have off of merit and not sympathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Is that the message we want to pass on to our kids? I would rather pass on to have some common sense, coffee is hot, you might slip and fall on a wet floor, if you give your suit to a dry cleaner they might lose it. These lawsuits are basically telling us and our kids that if you have an accident at a profitable bussiness that you win the lottery. For myself and my family, we will earn what we have off of merit and not sympathy. yep....too many people looking for the easy way. thats why we are in this mess. no accountability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Alright, you got me to do it. I actually looked it up and found out that you're lying. Congrats for making me put effort into it. You link gives a brewing and holding temperature, not a serving or drinking temperature. Recommended serving temp for coffee: 155 to 175. McDonalds old serving temp: 180-190 Passing something that is 30 degrees too hot and enough to give 3rd degree burns through a car window in a paper cup is a poor idea. recommended by who? I wouldn't even dispute that coffee is best drunk at 155-175, that is probably about right, but you do realize that reason they recommend "holding" it at 180-190 is that by pouring, adding cream, stirring, holding in a styrofoam cup, etc. cools it down? that is why different temperatures are recommended for brewing, holding, and drinking. this seems pretty obvious but apparently you need it explained to you. again, despite numerous idiotic lawsuits like this against all of them, mcdonalds, starbucks, BK, dunkin donuts and everyone else still keeps their coffee at about the same temperature. hot enough to burn you if you pour it into your lap. because coffee tastes like ass if it starts out colder, because 23,999,999 out of 24,000,000 consumers have no problem with that whatsoever, and most of those left probably aren't shameless enough to sue somebody if they do burn themselves. most courts have thrown out these idiotic lawsuits. here are a couple appelate opinions quoted on wikipedia, one frm the UK where none of these suits have gone anywhere, and one from the 7th circuit: "If this submission be right, McDonald’s should not have served drinks at any temperature which would have caused a bad scalding injury. The evidence is that tea or coffee served at a temperature of 65 C will cause a deep thickness burn if it is in contact with the skin for just two seconds. Thus, if McDonald’s were going to avoid the risk of injury by a deep thickness burn they would have had to have served tea and coffee at between 55 C and 60 C. But tea ought to be brewed with boiling water if it is to give its best flavour and coffee ought to be brewed at between 85 C and 95 C. Further, people generally like to allow a hot drink to cool to the temperature they prefer. Accordingly, I have no doubt that tea and coffee served at between 55 C and 60 C would not have been acceptable to McDonald’s customers. Indeed, on the evidence, I find that the public want to be able to buy tea and coffee served hot, that is to say at a temperature of at least 65 C, even though they know (as I think they must be taken to do for the purposes of answering issues (1) and (2)) that there is a risk of a scalding injury if the drink is spilled." . The smell (and therefore the taste) of coffee depends heavily on the oils containing aromatic compounds that are dissolved out of the beans during the brewing process. Brewing temperature should be close to 200 °F [93 °C] to dissolve them effectively, but without causing the premature breakdown of these delicate molecules. Coffee smells and tastes best when these aromatic compounds evaporate from the surface of the coffee as it is being drunk. Compounds vital to flavor have boiling points in the range of 150–160 °F [66–71 °C], and the beverage therefore tastes best when it is this hot and the aromatics vaporize as it is being drunk. For coffee to be 150 °F when imbibed, it must be hotter in the pot. Pouring a liquid increases its surface area and cools it; more heat is lost by contact with the cooler container; if the consumer adds cream and sugar (plus a metal spoon to stir them) the liquid's temperature falls again. If the consumer carries the container out for later consumption, the beverage cools still further. but there are enough people willing to sue over anything, enough scumbag lawyers to push the case, and enough idiots like you on some juries and defending it in the public arena, that they still keep trying and, occasionally, succeeding at labelling companies as "negligent" for allowing them to purchase a hot beverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShiznit Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I am also wondering where I can find these supposed federal regulations regarding the temperature at which coffee should be served shiznit referred to. edit: wva beat me to it Link the case...read it....and you shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShiznit Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Is that the message we want to pass on to our kids? I would rather pass on to have some common sense, coffee is hot, you might slip and fall on a wet floor, if you give your suit to a dry cleaner they might lose it. These lawsuits are basically telling us and our kids that if you have an accident at a profitable bussiness that you win the lottery. For myself and my family, we will earn what we have off of merit and not sympathy. Read John Grisham's new book...see how you feel after one of your family gets the wrong end of the profit shaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Read John Grisham's new book...see how you feel after one of your family gets the wrong end of the profit shaft. i dont think he is saying all cases are bogus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Link the case...read it....and you shall see. there aren't any federal regulations, dumbass. if you want to try and prove otherwise, YOU find the link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShiznit Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 recommended by who? I wouldn't even dispute that coffee is best drunk at 155-175, that is probably about right, but you do realize that reason they recommend "holding" it at 180-190 is that by pouring, adding cream, stirring, holding in a styrofoam cup, etc. cools it down? that is why different temperatures are recommended for brewing, holding, and drinking. this seems pretty obvious but apparently you need it explained to you. again, despite numerous idiotic lawsuits like this against all of them, mcdonalds, starbucks, BK, dunkin donuts and everyone else still keeps their coffee at about the same temperature. hot enough to burn you if you pour it into your lap. because coffee tastes like ass if it starts out colder, because 23,999,999 out of 24,000,000 consumers have no problem with that whatsoever, and most of those left probably aren't shameless enough to sue somebody if they do burn themselves. most courts have thrown out these idiotic lawsuits. here are a couple appelate opinions quoted on wikipedia, one frm the UK where none of these suits have gone anywhere, and one from the 7th circuit: . but there are enough people willing to sue over anything, enough scumbag lawyers to push the case, and enough idiots like you on some juries and defending it in the public arena, that they still keep trying and, occasionally, succeeding at labelling companies as "negligent" for allowing them to purchase a hot beverage. Here is the problem....if you are going to knowingly serve a product that could cause third degree burns out a drive through window....you must anticipate that some people DO NOT have cup holders....people are inherently ignorant of risks...and it is the responsibility of manufacturers and business to protect their clients from said risk. Now, whatever agency governs fast food inspections is the one who sets what is or is not a proper serving temp for the coffee....I remember that from one of my law classes in college when we read the appellate decision on this case. The repeatedly warned McD's that if this coffee accidentally spilled...it would cause third degree burns...they ignored the warning and got burned. Now, wouldn't it be prudent to make sure the cup you put such hot crap in wouldn't fail and protect your customers? There are lots of things McD's could have done to prevent this. Example: Why do lawn mower manufacturers have the side discharge safety on all lawnmowers...because it is their responsibility to prevent injury from the use of their product...without the shield...there would be untold number of projectile injuries....and they should be liable. Really...this is rather simple stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShiznit Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 there aren't any federal regulations, dumbass. if you want to try and prove otherwise, YOU find the link. You are the one who questioned it and then quoted juan valdez as a rebuttal....good thing you only keep the computers running cause you are a complete friggin moron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) Here is the problem....if you are going to knowingly serve a product that could cause third degree burns out a drive through window....you must anticipate that some people DO NOT have cup holders....people are inherently ignorant of risks...and it is the responsibility of manufacturers and business to protect their clients from said risk. Now, whatever agency governs fast food inspections is the one who sets what is or is not a proper serving temp for the coffee....I remember that from one of my law classes in college when we read the appellate decision on this case. The repeatedly warned McD's that if this coffee accidentally spilled...it would cause third degree burns...they ignored the warning and got burned. Now, wouldn't it be prudent to make sure the cup you put such hot crap in wouldn't fail and protect your customers? There are lots of things McD's could have done to prevent this. Example: Why do lawn mower manufacturers have the side discharge safety on all lawnmowers...because it is their responsibility to prevent injury from the use of their product...without the shield...there would be untold number of projectile injuries....and they should be liable. Really...this is rather simple stuff. but we know these risks!!! we know coffee is friggin hot. we know a lawn mower is dangerous. i was laughing today riding the el into work. there was a sign on the platform instructing commuters to make sure they hold their child's hand while waiting for a train. do we really need this sign??!? no, but somebody would sue if their kid got hurt and they werent told to hold their hand(which they should be doing in the first place!!!). its crap. now if a company is at fault, by all means, sue da fruck outta them. Edited February 6, 2009 by dmarc117 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShiznit Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 If i remember right, the local health department....the people who regulate restaurant food safety and what not is the agency that was repeatedly warning McD's about the temperature. So, again...read the case....research the facts...find your own answer if you don't trust my memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Here is the problem....if you are going to knowingly serve a product that could cause third degree burns out a drive through window....you must anticipate that some people DO NOT have cup holders....people are inherently ignorant of risks...and it is the responsibility of manufacturers and business to protect their clients from said risk. Now, whatever agency governs fast food inspections is the one who sets what is or is not a proper serving temp for the coffee....I remember that from one of my law classes in college when we read the appellate decision on this case. The repeatedly warned McD's that if this coffee accidentally spilled...it would cause third degree burns...they ignored the warning and got burned. Now, wouldn't it be prudent to make sure the cup you put such hot crap in wouldn't fail and protect your customers? she, stella, took the friggin lid off while holding the cup between her legs. and she spilled it on herself. I don't know how you blame the cup for that. I'll wait for the link on the regulations and warnings from whatever federal agency of coffee imbibers you are imagining. of course, I won't hold my breath, since I suspect, as usual, you are pulling this completely out of your ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fingfootball Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 If i remember right, the local health department....the people who regulate restaurant food safety and what not is the agency that was repeatedly warning McD's about the temperature. So, again...read the case....research the facts...find your own answer if you don't trust my memory. I owned a bar/resturant for a long time and the health inspector never checked the temp on coffee. Even if there is a regulation on beverage tempatures then fine or close the resturant in violation for not meeting health code. You cant protect ignorant/dumb people from themselves all the time. And being ignorant/dumb should entitle you to nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 If i remember right, the local health department....the people who regulate restaurant food safety and what not is the agency that was repeatedly warning McD's about the temperature. So, again...read the case....research the facts...find your own answer if you don't trust my memory. Since you've already been demonstrated to completely pull stuff outta thin air, why would we trust anything you say? Hey Az, go spend the next three hours looking for nonexistent "facts" that fecal blemish knows are out there! Then, go prove to me how we bombed the japanese AFTER they'd surrendered! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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