Church rant

[Ursa Majoris]

Dude, my thoughts on religion are very similar to yours but the idea is to keep the conversation civil. If you don't the thread will get locked or deleted. If you can't keep it civil, please don't respond.

+1

[masterwing]

will the thread get locked if i say brett favre is a viking, get over it?

i doubt it.

 

this is a nice forum and im glad to be a part of it, communicating with other people across the world iis awesome...and i believe in its constructive power on civilization. we need to talk more it helps. and i have no intention of being anything other than civil.

 

i didnt bring it up, but ill talk all day to a beliver and tell them whay i dont. and listen to whay they do.

 

jesus IS DEAD. the earth is round. brett favre is a viking. and my new gale sayers jersey is awesome. get over it.

 

Please be offended if you choose to.

I hope your not.

[Chavez]

Well, THIS guy appears to have a lot to contribute.

[Azazello1313]

Cute and easy reply, and really a perfect illustration of why common decency is eroding from our society. Hey man, anything goes, we should all practice tolerance. God forbid you stand up for what's right anymore, don't want to be branded a judgmental bigot. Meanwhile all the institutions that built our society crumble down around us and people wonder why.

 

my point was that you don't know what's going on with them, what battles they are fighting. it may well be that they are perfectly aware of how their son is appearing and behaving, and that it is reflecting badly on them. in which case it might reflect a certain amount of desperation on their part to introduce something positive in his life. it's all speculation, of course, but that is the point -- we don't know.

 

there's nothing "cute and easy" about resisting the urge to snap judgment with regard to those who annoy us. this is a christian church though, isn't it?

[The Irish Doggy]

Reach out and talk to the family after Mass each time you see them. Welcoming, non-confrontational, and yet not-enabling the inappropriate/distracting conduct ... done in small doses spread over time ... Doesn't have to be much and you can frame it so Mom & Dad don't get defensive ...

 

After the next Mass you see them at, wander over to intersect them and say "Hey folks I'm Matt770. I'm glad you all could come as a family - it's nice to see young people here at Mass. When I was a kid, I'm not sure I appreciated how important family stuff was." Leave it at that. The next time you see them at Mass, wave to him before Mass and then chat again after. If the kid's been a distraction, add a part specific to his disruptive behavior from that particular week. Greet the parents warmly and then turn to the kid and say "You know, while you're here, though, I'd ask that you not tap your feet to your ipod music as it distracted me from the service. If you'd hold off from that for the 45 minutes, it would really help." The third week, maybe sit in the pew in front of them so you can turn and shake his hand at the greeting of peace -- or at least say "peace be with you" if he won't extend his hand. At the end of that 3rd Mass, follow up with another conversation -- one that's not about behavior. "Hey, good to see you again. Glad you could make it. How are things with you?" Then, from there, you've positioned yourself each time to chat after Mass -- and address the distractions only in the week they occur.

 

Take the time to listen if the kid speaks and look for something to build on in terms of common interests. Be prepared for a blank strare -- it's fine -- you're looking to build a relationship while setting some boundaries for the type of behavior you expect in your environment. Your role is not to replace the parents, but to provide some adult support. No need to go after his non-participation habits -- all you want to do is address the most aggregious of the distractions, the inappropriate stuff that wrecks Mass for somebody's gramma sitting nearby. Your role is not to berate the kid or force him to do anything -- you just lay out a welcome and gently but directly identify the minimum standards. In their lives, you become that crazy guy at Mass who always talks to them at -- while helping subtly shape his behavior so you can enjoy Mass.

 

A bit of adult leadership from parishoners like you might just open doors in the kid's life. The faster he learns that you don't get to like everything and no one can force you to believe anything, but it's expected that you will show a minimum level of respect for others, the better off he will be. Cliche time? Be the change you want to see in the world.

 

 

This is just so crazy it might work.

[Kid Cid]

will the thread get locked if i say brett favre is a viking, get over it?

i doubt it.

 

this is a nice forum and im glad to be a part of it, communicating with other people across the world iis awesome...and i believe in its constructive power on civilization. we need to talk more it helps. and i have no intention of being anything other than civil.

 

i didnt bring it up, but ill talk all day to a beliver and tell them whay i dont. and listen to whay they do.

 

jesus IS DEAD. the earth is round. brett favre is a viking. and my new gale sayers jersey is awesome. get over it.

 

Please be offended if you choose to.

I hope your not.

It's not my rules, it's the rules of the people that run this place. They have stated that politics and religion are not topics allowed for discussion here in the Tailgate. This isn't a topic about religion per se, it is a topic about the behavior of a person in a public setting. It just so happens that the location is a church. The topic will be allowed, but if you keep dragging confrontational religious statements into it, the powers that be here will shut it down. We've seen it too many times.

[Double Agent]

i didnt bring it up, but ill talk all day to a beliver and tell them whay i dont. and listen to whay they do.

 

Um...you did bring it up. A guy posted about a kid being disrespectful in church and how to handle it and you thread-jack and insult his beliefs.

[matt770]

my point was that you don't know what's going on with them, what battles they are fighting. it may well be that they are perfectly aware of how their son is appearing and behaving, and that it is reflecting badly on them. in which case it might reflect a certain amount of desperation on their part to introduce something positive in his life. it's all speculation, of course, but that is the point -- we don't know.

 

there's nothing "cute and easy" about resisting the urge to snap judgment with regard to those who annoy us. this is a christian church though, isn't it?

 

I guess the problem is that from a young age, it was drilled into my head that church is the house of God and respect must be shown at all times. On Sundays the nuns would yank us out of church if we were misbehaving in even the slightest way. Also my mom and grandparents instilled a lot of old-fashioned values into my head about how people should behave.

 

I knew this thread would make me see it from a different perspective, and I'm glad I started it. Maybe the parents are hoping one hour of light will shine on this kid per week, and even if he ignores it completely, somehow something good will sink in.

[matt770]

Im still wondering how anyone can belive the earth is 10,000 years old, dinasaurs didnt exist- the sun the sun!!!! its obviously over 10,000 years old!!!

 

people have been bombed burned alive molested and persecuted in every way if they are not christians......hundreds of years ago...presently....it never frickin ends with it.

 

church is for the weak, the ignorant and the brainwashed guilty types if you ask me.

 

NOTHING IS MORE EVIL THAN CHRISTAINITY BESIDES INDIVIDUAL CRazy nuts like hitler dahmer bushetc...have a nice day....................

 

And you're representing the educated and enlightened contingent?

[Chavez]

I guess the problem is that from a young age, it was drilled into my head that church is the house of God and respect must be shown at all times....Also my mom and grandparents instilled a lot of old-fashioned values into my head about how people should behave.

And either the parents DIDN'T drill this into the kids head* or it didn't take.

 

And really I have ZERO interest in being in church myself, so I consider it a general issue of respect. If someone is speaking, at least APPEAR interested or at least don't be actively disruptive. I've passed the time in more than one Catholic mass by checking out the architectural details of an old church.

 

 

I knew this thread would make me see it from a different perspective, and I'm glad I started it. Maybe the parents are hoping one hour of light will shine on this kid per week, and even if he ignores it completely, somehow something good will sink in.

Yeah, there's probably a pretty good chance that this kid hasn't been in church regularly for a while but he got caught drinking or smoking pot or banging his girlfriend and the parents are thinking "he needs to get to church."

 

The problem is that he sees it as punishment and religion as complete b.s. that doesn't deserve his respect. To which I'd tell my kid "yes, it IS punishment, and whether or not you think religion is b.s. you WILL be respectful to the pastor when he speaks. And dress nicely."

Edited September 14, 2009 by Chavez

[masterwing]

Um...you did bring it up. A guy posted about a kid being disrespectful in church and how to handle it and you thread-jack and insult his beliefs.

 

Nope. Good try though.

 

The thread was started by someone else. Its easy to see who made the thread...

 

the title of the thread says evil......

 

where was the evil? did the kid chew on live squirrelss as he sat in church?

 

i was insulted as were many others without provocation when you declared us non believers evil.

 

i can man my own defense so i did.

 

Nice try though lol

[masterwing]

wow this is easier than i thought it would be.... i thought you would all gang up on me and have valid arguments i'd have to weave through....hmmm oh well i like winning too i guess.....

 

its the match that gets me goin anyways.

 

i did "freak out: to some of you, but to me thats just pillow talk. :i say it every day.\\

 

if i really thought out loud youd probably call me a atheist revolutionist...oops

[Cameltosis]

wow this is easier than i thought it would be.... i thought you would all gang up on me and have valid arguments i'd have to weave through....hmmm oh well i like winning too i guess.....

 

its the match that gets me goin anyways.

 

i did "freak out: to some of you, but to me thats just pillow talk. :i say it every day.\\

 

if i really thought out loud youd probably call me a atheist revolutionist...oops

 

you are so edgy and controversial. i want to be like you just like i wanted to be the fonz when i was little.

[detlef]

wow this is easier than i thought it would be.... i thought you would all gang up on me and have valid arguments i'd have to weave through....hmmm oh well i like winning too i guess.....

 

its the match that gets me goin anyways.

 

i did "freak out: to some of you, but to me thats just pillow talk. :i say it every day.\\

 

if i really thought out loud youd probably call me a atheist revolutionist...oops

Actually, the group here is pretty divided when it comes to faith. We're not, it seems, divided when it comes to whether or not we think you're a freaking tool.

 

As to the topic at hand, I'd have to agree that it's the parent's deal, not yours, Matt. I don't go to church, nor do I have kids. I was, however, raised to be more respectful in situations such as this and would expect a punishment far worse than being dragged to church (assuming that's what is going on here) were I to go there and act like this kid. I would likely be begging for another chance to sit in church, provided I could still sit, if I tried to prove a point like this.

 

That said, if you're going to church, go there for you. Certainly if someone is being outwardly disruptive, that's another story. But if some kid is sitting in quiet defiance, that's his deal, not yours.

Edited September 14, 2009 by detlef

[Azazello1313]

Actually, the group here is pretty divided when it comes to faith. We're not, it seems, divided when it comes to whether or not we think you're a freaking tool.

 

:highfive:

[matt770]

wow this is easier than i thought it would be.... i thought you would all gang up on me and have valid arguments i'd have to weave through....hmmm oh well i like winning too i guess.....

 

its the match that gets me goin anyways.

 

i did "freak out: to some of you, but to me thats just pillow talk. :i say it every day.\\

 

if i really thought out loud youd probably call me a atheist revolutionist...oops

 

Didn't really think your "arguments" warranted much rebuttal, given how they were presented....but I know there are adults here who share your views and are capable of civil discourse, so I'll respond to them.

 

Not everyone who attends church is a Bible-thumping, closed-minded, fire-and-brimstone type. I have done a lot of reading about religions and recently watched a movie called The God Who Wasn't There which postulates that Christ didn't even exist and his whole story in Scripture is lifted from earlier mythology. It made a compelling case and definitely made me think. After 38 years on this planet I'm not any closer to figuring it all out than anyone else, and I agree that fanatical adherence to religion is really harmful, just like too much of anything is usually bad. You can die from drinking too much water. But if you paint all religions and all people who attend church with the same brush, you are engaging in stereotyping, which is something that progressive, liberal, agnostic types tend to disdain. Such closed-mindedness and bigotry is not much different from the religious fanatics you criticize.

 

I go to church to get in touch with my spiritual self. I've memorized all the prayers and responses from years of Sunday school and weekly church when I was a kid, and it still gives me a sense of peace and well-being whenever I go. It makes me want to be a better person and I feel refreshed and energized when I'm done. I wish everyone had such a place, regardless of their beliefs.

[masterwing]

And you're representing the educated and enlightened contingent?

 

 

yes but unenlightened uneducated people can have opinions too. they just have to be based on somenthing and once rational trustworthy information is obtained thery can confirm their opinion or change it.

 

like jake delhomme is lousy. ....opinion yes, but he has played lousy according to websters dictionary and all of carolina nation.... lol look up his stats or watch him play in person. compared to me though hes not lousy. or if he wins the superbowl after a great second half season then boom, opinion changed.

 

sayin kid x is evil though is a pretty big and all-encompassing statement---because he sat there and listened to his ipod is irrational. hes probably writing a thesis on your reaction right now. that would be funny

 

 

the argument has nothing really to do with religeon or "enlightnenment "which is a fancy word for education

it has to do with irrational judgments with little information to base it upon.

 

I just had to point that out and now i guess i had to again.

 

i pointed out my reasons for saying what i thought was evil and gave examples that was achieved through reason and education

you can look up my examples

 

the forum and the progress of our argument

[Kid Cid]

yes but unenlightened uneducated people can have opinions too. they just have to be based on somenthing and once rational trustworthy information is obtained thery can confirm their opinion or change it.

 

like jake delhomme is lousy. ....opinion yes, but he has played lousy according to websters dictionary and all of carolina nation.... lol look up his stats or watch him play in person. compared to me though hes not lousy. or if he wins the superbowl after a great second half season then boom, opinion changed.

 

sayin kid x is evil though is a pretty big and all-encompassing statement---because he sat there and listened to his ipod is irrational. hes probably writing a thesis on your reaction right now. that would be funny

 

 

the argument has nothing really to do with religeon or "enlightnenment "which is a fancy word for education

it has to do with irrational judgments with little information to base it upon.

 

I just had to point that out and now i guess i had to again.

 

i pointed out my reasons for saying what i thought was evil and gave examples that was achieved through reason and education

you can look up my examples

 

the forum and the progress of our argument

Ahh, see now you begin to present a coherrent, logically constructed argument in defense of the position you find yourself in. Had you done this from the beginning, people might actually have taken your point as valid and perhaps ammended the original statement based on the new information presented.

 

Instead you came in here slinging mud and generally made everyone that had read the thread put you in the "Potential Fektard of the Year" category.

 

There are a bunch or really bright people here even if we don't all agree on something. Start calling people names, disrespecting them and generally be a nuisance and these really bright people can become a pissed off mob in a hurry.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Kid Cid

[Donutrun Jellies]

Reach out and talk to the family after Mass each time you see them. Welcoming, non-confrontational, and yet not-enabling the inappropriate/distracting conduct ... done in small doses spread over time ... Doesn't have to be much and you can frame it so Mom & Dad don't get defensive ...

 

After the next Mass you see them at, wander over to intersect them and say "Hey folks I'm Matt770. I'm glad you all could come as a family - it's nice to see young people here at Mass. When I was a kid, I'm not sure I appreciated how important family stuff was." Leave it at that. The next time you see them at Mass, wave to him before Mass and then chat again after. If the kid's been a distraction, add a part specific to his disruptive behavior from that particular week. Greet the parents warmly and then turn to the kid and say "You know, while you're here, though, I'd ask that you not tap your feet to your ipod music as it distracted me from the service. If you'd hold off from that for the 45 minutes, it would really help." The third week, maybe sit in the pew in front of them so you can turn and shake his hand at the greeting of peace -- or at least say "peace be with you" if he won't extend his hand. At the end of that 3rd Mass, follow up with another conversation -- one that's not about behavior. "Hey, good to see you again. Glad you could make it. How are things with you?" Then, from there, you've positioned yourself each time to chat after Mass -- and address the distractions only in the week they occur.

 

Take the time to listen if the kid speaks and look for something to build on in terms of common interests. Be prepared for a blank strare -- it's fine -- you're looking to build a relationship while setting some boundaries for the type of behavior you expect in your environment. Your role is not to replace the parents, but to provide some adult support. No need to go after his non-participation habits -- all you want to do is address the most aggregious of the distractions, the inappropriate stuff that wrecks Mass for somebody's gramma sitting nearby. Your role is not to berate the kid or force him to do anything -- you just lay out a welcome and gently but directly identify the minimum standards. In their lives, you become that crazy guy at Mass who always talks to them at -- while helping subtly shape his behavior so you can enjoy Mass.

 

A bit of adult leadership from parishoners like you might just open doors in the kid's life. The faster he learns that you don't get to like everything and no one can force you to believe anything, but it's expected that you will show a minimum level of respect for others, the better off he will be. Cliche time? Be the change you want to see in the world.

 

I'll bump my advice back to the forefront to redirect the conversation in a productive direction because this really could be one of those instances when folks need to set aside the entertaining blather of holier-than-thou judegments or anti-religion diatribes, get involved in the community, and make a positive impact in a kid's life ...

[Azazello1313]

I'll bump my advice back to the forefront to redirect the conversation in a productive direction because this really could be one of those instances when folks need to set aside the entertaining blather of holier-than-thou judegments or anti-religion diatribes, get involved in the community, and make a positive impact in a kid's life ...

 

thou shalt not bump thy own reply.

 

 

 

no, seriously, your advice in that post is awesome.

[Kid Cid]

Actually, the group here is pretty divided when it comes to faith. We're not, it seems, divided when it comes to whether or not we think you're a freaking tool.

 

As to the topic at hand, I'd have to agree that it's the parent's deal, not yours, Matt. I don't go to church, nor do I have kids. I was, however, raised to be more respectful in situations such as this and would expect a punishment far worse than being dragged to church (assuming that's what is going on here) were I to go there and act like this kid. I would likely be begging for another chance to sit in church, provided I could still sit, if I tried to prove a point like this.

 

That said, if you're going to church, go there for you. Certainly if someone is being outwardly disruptive, that's another story. But if some kid is sitting in quiet defiance, that's his deal, not yours.

I have to agree, if my parents "asked" that I go somewhere and spend some time then regardless of my personal take on the situation, I would have at least shown respect or the price I paid would have been far greater than sitting for an hour and listening to someone drone on.

 

I have in the not so recent past been forced (read: tricked)to sit through a mass that I in no way, shape or form wanted to be part of. Not being of any faith, I didn't think it would be right for me to go through the motions of standing, sitting, kneeling, speaking the lines, etc. That didn't give me the right to be disruptive of the situation either. Quietly sitting in the back and not participating is an acceptable compromise IMO considering that this was a memorial and I did wish to show respect and support to the deceased and his family.

 

This does lead us to the conversation of the general use of an Ipod. Not only do people not show respect by using the damn things at inappropriate time, they also place themselve in dangerous situations (jogging in the city for instance) by wearing them when auditory clues (such as the truck about to hit you) might help keep them safe. I continue to not be a fan of them for many reasons in addition to a lessenign of audio quality.

[matt770]

I'll bump my advice back to the forefront to redirect the conversation in a productive direction because this really could be one of those instances when folks need to set aside the entertaining blather of holier-than-thou judegments or anti-religion diatribes, get involved in the community, and make a positive impact in a kid's life ...

 

I did read your advice and I appreciate it. The family in question has been there twice out of my 20+ visits so hopefully it won't be an issue again anytime soon. If they sit near me again I'll move so I can enjoy the service, luckily it's a pretty big place. As far as saying something to them, I tend to be either too timid or too direct in my communication with not much middle ground, and I'm afraid I would probably err on the too direct side in this instance. It would be great if a priest or deacon could address them because they would probably approach it in the way you suggest.

[BeeR]

I try to get to church whenever I can, usually works out to once or twice a month. A few months back my wife and I went with my parents who were in town visiting. There was a kid of about 16 there with his parents with a scowl on his face the whole time, wearing a shirt that said "Christians to the Lions" in huge gothic letters on the back. He made a point of not participating, sitting the whole time with his arms crossed and staring straight ahead.

 

Today this same family was there again. The kid was wearing a Lamb of God shirt and LISTENED TO HIS IPOD FOR THE ENTIRE MASS, stomping his feet to the music and staring straight ahead with that same defiant look. Again the parents just sat there, clueless. These are very well-groomed and professional-looking people, mind you. The dad looked like Brad Childress with more hair, and the mom looked like your basic PTA-meeting, cookie-baking soccer mom. They had a younger son with them, maybe 13, who did participate in the mass but looked miserable and embarrassed by the whole spectacle. Everyone around them had some kind of reaction, from disgust to head-shaking amusement. I actually contemplated saying something to them, if only because no one else would.

 

I don't have kids and I don't pretend to even comprehend the challenges that parenthood can present. But it would be a cold day in hell before my kid ever put on a display like that. I don't care if the kid is deeply troubled for whatever reason -- talk to him about it, take him to therapy, try to understand, compromise, whatever -- but disrespecting an entire congregation like that would not be an option.

 

The kid is clearly rude and ignorant but "evil" is kinda stretching it.

 

The parents are the problem - my kid would NOT behave like that in ANY public setting.

 

Would you guys pls reproduce as much as possible...the ones like that brat's parents and/or who think he should get away w/it are already breeding like cockroaches. TIA

 

 

 

I have a bigger problem with the parents than the kid in this particular situation. While the kid shouldn't be acting out in such a way as to disrespect the organization (regardless of your beliefs, respect is respect) the parents have got to know what is going to happen if they force their child to be in this situation. Clearly they haven't been able to inprint on the kid the need to show respect to others, therefore, they should remove the kid from a situation where he obviously wants to cause trouble.

......they also could have done things like taken the little snot's ipod away, or the dad (unless he's a total milquetoast) could have quite literally applied a firm hand when he started stomping to the music or whatever.

 

But I agree that if they can't or won't do so, then yes, LEAVE. Permitting a kid to act up like that in any public place where some degree of quiet is expected is incredibly rude.

[matt770]

......they also could have done things like taken the little snot's ipod away, or the dad (unless he's a total milquetoast) could have quite literally applied a firm hand when he started stomping to the music or whatever.

 

Milquetoast sums up the guy perfectly from what I've seen, and it's part of what riled me up in the first place. I have an uncle who had twin sons and took the nice guy approach -- they would be setting the house on fire and he'd basically say hey guys, can we talk about your feelings for a moment? Today both kids are in their 20's and barely functional. I didn't have the benefit of a dad to help raise me, so I guess I get a little pissed when I see a dad with an intact marriage and what would seem to be the means to do a better job, just butchering it. If you choose to be a parent, it should be the most important thing in your life.

[masterwing]

Milquetoast sums up the guy perfectly from what I've seen, and it's part of what riled me up in the first place. I have an uncle who had twin sons and took the nice guy approach -- they would be setting the house on fire and he'd basically say hey guys, can we talk about your feelings for a moment? Today both kids are in their 20's and barely functional. I didn't have the benefit of a dad to help raise me, so I guess I get a little pissed when I see a dad with an intact marriage and what would seem to be the means to do a better job, just butchering it. If you choose to be a parent, it should be the most important thing in your life.

 

most kids are barely functional these days you just forgot about

 

THE ENTIRE REST OF THE WORLD THAT IS STRUGGLING AND IN POVERTY FAMINE WAR...BUT YEAH YOUR RIGHT...MY BAD

 

I SUPPOSE THE EMERGANCE OF SCIENCE AND THE RAPID DECLINE OF FAITH IN THE U.S., THE FACT THAT WE ARE IN A CONTINUING "WAR ON TERROR" THAT IS BY LAW: AN ACTUAL WAR JUST LIKE BUT AGAIN"BY LAW TOTALLY INDEPENDENT AND SEPERATE: FROM THE TWO OTHER WARS WE ARE CURRENTLY IN--THE CHRISTIAN AND CATHOLIC CHURCHES BEING ACCUSED OF CHILD MOLESTATION EVERY DAY, AND A GIANT DEPRESSION ALL HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

 

YEAH THE PARENTS MUST BE EVIL JUST LIKE THE KID. tHERES NO THERE EXPLANATION.