westvirginia Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Again, I was NOT comparing the "validity of corporal punishment, rape, and murder before the birth of Jesus." I was asserting that it was a flawed argument to posit that because a behavior (i.e., corporal punishment) has been around since before Jesus, it is automatically one to be emulated, accepted, or approved. I then used the hyperbolic examples of rape and murder to illustrate my point that just because a behavior has been around for thousands of years, this does not make it a good thing. As to your second question: I do believe that there is a "right and wrong" on this issue. That is my belief. Do I know with certainty that I am correct? Of course not. I simply believe that I am correct. I worked in an after school program years ago. One of my co-workers was older and her 8 yr old son was a child in the program. For some reason, in front of his mother, he hit another boy. She immediately smacked him on the arm with her hand and in a raised voice said, "Don't hit people!" I found this funny. She was teaching him not to hit people by hitting him. In my view, spanking is a violent act. Others, of course, will disagree. I think that by using a violent act in order to discipline children, we are teaching them that violent acts are an acceptable manner in which to change the behavior of others. Are you aware that many parents who physically abuse their children were themselves physically abused when they were children (and I'm not asserting that corporal punishment and physical abuse are the same--just showing that children learn what is acceptable from their parents and how to interact with others from their parents). If my child were to become a bully and hit his peers, I wonder what I'm teaching him if I spank him each time he hits one of his peers? If my son were to tell my wife to shut up, I could spank him. He might learn not to tell my wife to shut up. He might also learn that when he wants to control another person's behavior, hitting them is a good method for doing so. The other side of that coin, however, is violence, however abhorrent and to be avoided, does have its place. Like if your son was that bully - getting his ass kicked would be a pretty good deterrent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted April 13, 2010 Author Share Posted April 13, 2010 The other side of that coin, however, is violence, however abhorrent and to be avoided, does have its place. Like if your son was that bully - getting his ass kicked would be a pretty good deterrent... It is my experience that bully's prey upon the weak. If a peer kicks a bully's ass, the bully finds someone else to abuse. In my past life as a child therapist, I worked with a number of "bullies" who were physically abused. It seemed that getting his ass kicked by his parent did not deter this type of behavior. Of course, this is only anecdotal evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 It is my experience that bully's prey upon the weak. If a peer kicks a bully's ass, the bully finds someone else to abuse. In my past life as a child therapist, I worked with a number of "bullies" who were physically abused. It seemed that getting his ass kicked by his parent did not deter this type of behavior. Of course, this is only anecdotal evidence. I get what you're saying, but the bully getting beaten by the parent is again, the strong preying on the weak. Sheep do occasionally have teeth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliaz Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 (edited) Again, I was NOT comparing the "validity of corporal punishment, rape, and murder before the birth of Jesus." I was asserting that it was a flawed argument to posit that because a behavior (i.e., corporal punishment) has been around since before Jesus, it is automatically one to be emulated, accepted, or approved. I then used the hyperbolic examples of rape and murder to illustrate my point that just because a behavior has been around for thousands of years, this does not make it a good thing. I see your point now. See, that’s all you had to do. As to your second question: I do believe that there is a "right and wrong" on this issue. That is my belief. Do I know with certainty that I am correct? Of course not. I simply believe that I am correct. This is exactly what I stated in my reply. I worked in an after school program years ago. One of my co-workers was older and her 8 yr old son was a child in the program. For some reason, in front of his mother, he hit another boy. She immediately smacked him on the arm with her hand and in a raised voice said, "Don't hit people!" I found this funny. She was teaching him not to hit people by hitting him. Was it a hard slap that left a red mark or one that just alerted the child? I’ve been with people in a mall where a mother smacked a child and the girl we were with got all upset. She started talking in a loud voice about hitting a child is horrible. I saw it happen and it wasn’t even hard enough to even be considered a smack, shoot not even hard enough to be considered a playful slap. Any event is viewed through a person’s own eyes. For all we know, the co-worker smacked him to get his attention and it was a light smack or maybe she smacked him hard enough to leave a bruise and it was a much harder slap than what you perceived. There was an interesting study done on perception where people were introduced to an unusual situation and then interviewed a week later on what happen during the situation. Out of the 12 participants, none were able to recount correctly the event. I’m going to dip back into the University of Maryland DBs and find it so everyone can see it. It was very interesting. Now, that is not to say you did or didn’t see things as they were. But my experience has been one that personal feelings tend to influence perception. Regardless, I see your point on the contradictory action of smacking a child for hitting another. In my view, spanking is a violent act. Others, of course, will disagree. I think that by using a violent act in order to discipline children, we are teaching them that violent acts are an acceptable manner in which to change the behavior of others. Are you aware that many parents who physically abuse their children were themselves physically abused when they were children (and I'm not asserting that corporal punishment and physical abuse are the same--just showing that children learn what is acceptable from their parents and how to interact with others from their parents). If my child were to become a bully and hit his peers, I wonder what I'm teaching him if I spank him each time he hits one of his peers? If my son were to tell my wife to shut up, I could spank him. He might learn not to tell my wife to shut up. He might also learn that when he wants to control another person's behavior, hitting them is a good method for doing so. I understand that completely. I did a paper on parent smokers and how their children become smokers. I believe it was 70% of children who have parents who smoke become smokers as well. Same principle here; actions of parents become behaviors of the child later in life. However, I do not put a lot of stock into any finds on these. It is all but virtually impossible to do an accurate research project into any situation (smoking, abuse, etc). All of the results are considered subjective and allude to the findings being applicable to all demography. A research project on abuse would need at least a decade and it would only be applicable to one demographic. To have conclusive data, you would have to factor in the following just to have a clear band of subjects you can use: What country Cultural influence Age of the time abuse What type of abuse Race Income Disabilities Education Employment Religion Does the family have genetic abnormalities that leave them pre-disposed to abuse (bi-polar, depression, etc?) Family type (single parent, nuclear, traditional, etc) Frequency of abuse And that is just the beginning. Then you need to have physiological profiles done on each person involved in the abuse (giving and receiving end). I was physically and emotionally abused as a child as well as the other and I do neither to my children. ETA: However it was not from my parents Edited April 13, 2010 by cliaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 This is one of the most enlightening and civil discussions I've seen in the TG in quite awhile. Does anyone know if boys are more likely to be the recipient of corporal punishment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted April 13, 2010 Author Share Posted April 13, 2010 This is one of the most enlightening and civil discussions I've seen in the TG in quite awhile. Does anyone know if boys are more likely to be the recipient of corporal punishment? I don't know the statistics but in my own work, boys far and away are spanked more than girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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