What Do You Think

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Simple really, just nuke WI

 

[Azazello1313]

I think it's a bad idea to have politicians who are elected thanks to campaign contributions from public unions at the negotiating table determining wages and benefits for those that helped get them elected. I believe that workers should have a right to choose to unionize and collectively bargain or stand alone in negotiations with management. I also believe that business and government has a right to either deal with a union or hire non-union workers.

 

well, the thing is, the wisconsin bill doesn't do anything to limit the right to associate, or, necessarily, to "collectively bargain". what it does limit is the exclusivity of the union contract. from the union perspective, collective bargaining is completely toothless if it's an opt in/opt out situation. you have a freeloading problem, where people will avoid paying union dues and bargain individually when it suits them, and then try and join the herd when that suits them. so from the union perspective, it has to be an all or nothing proposition. in practice, a shop is either union, or non-union, it can't really be both. giving employees the choice to join the union or not to join, while still getting or keeping the job, breaks the union.

 

the following from the conservative heritage foundation is obviously opinionated, but factually accurate and, I think, a helpful explanation:

 

freedom of association is a right shared by all Americans and protected by the First Amendment. In contrast, collective bargaining is a special power occasionally granted to some unions. In upholding North Carolina’s ban on government union collective bargaining, a federal court wrote in Atkins vs. City of Charlotte: “All citizens have the right to associate in groups to advocate their special interests to the government. It is something entirely different to grant any one interest group special status and access to the decision making process.”

 

Gov. Scott Walker’s ® budget bill in Wisconsin in no way infringes on any Americans’ right to associate and lobby government. What it does do is allow Wisconsin employees to choose not to join a union and keep their job at the same time. It also forces the government unions in Wisconsin to collect their own union dues instead of using the power of the state to withhold them directly from employee paychecks.

 

Now there is a question you’ll never see in a New York Times poll: “Do you favor forcing all state employees to join a union and empowering government unions to take union dues directly from employee paychecks?”

 

but again, "allowing Wisconsin employees to choose not to join a union and keep their job at the same time" and "busting the union" and "taking away collective barganing 'rights'" are all the exact same thing, just with different semantic spin.

[Fatman]

Simple really, just nuke WI

 

[bpwallace49]

I will be civil (and I thought I have been).....

 

[bpwallace49]

I think we have seen the beginning of the end for public unions. Considering 17 states have some sort of legislation on the table, those days are gone. They, like many unions got a little too greedy. That is what gets them in the end.

 

Agree to a point. While this may be the first shoe to drop, many public unions (and two that are the most highly organised) were untouched in WI. While this may be the beginning of a trend where ALL public unions are addressed, that hasnt been the case across the board.

 

The bolded part you posted is particularly apt.

[bushwacked]

In short, the beginning of our revolution here in the US.

 

It won't be long now.

[Azazello1313]

It won't be long now.

 

birthing pains!

[moneymakers]

Jesse Jackson In Wisconsin: We're "Going To Escalate The Protests

 

Jesse Jackson sends a warning message during an appearance on FOX News: "So they're going to escalate the protests -- you will either have collective bargaining through a vehicle called collective bargaining or you're going to have it through the streets. People here will fight back because they think their cause is moral and they have nowhere else to go."

 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/201...e_protests.html

[gbpfan1231]

Jesse Jackson In Wisconsin: We're "Going To Escalate The Protests

 

Jesse Jackson sends a warning message during an appearance on FOX News: "So they're going to escalate the protests -- you will either have collective bargaining through a vehicle called collective bargaining or you're going to have it through the streets. People here will fight back because they think their cause is moral and they have nowhere else to go."

 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/201...e_protests.html

Nowhere to go??? They can go hang with the Dems in Illinois.

 

Just heard that this new bill does contain the 5.8% pension and 12.5% Insurance. I guess they consider this not fiscal related because it is not the govt spending the money it is the people contributing. Wow - I thought that part was out.

 

So the only major part taken out was the debt restructuring which was really never even debated by either side.

[Wolverines Fan]

I think that it will be interesting to watch the recall efforts over the next few months.

 

+1

 

The political enviroment is going to stay super toxic up there.

 

I read somewhere that a Wis. gov is not "eligible' to be recalled unti he has been in office for a minimum of a year.

 

Both repub and dem state senators probably will face recall efforts.

 

Doubt this goes national. What gov wants to risk a recall election?

[gbpfan1231]

Sounds like in certain areas there is a rush to get new contracts signed ahead of Walker signing this bill. If this happens won't these local govts be screwed??

 

Walker is going to take away state aid and also try to pass a budget that stops them from raising property taxes. What will these govts due if they still are spending but lose aid and can't raise taxes???

 

They will need to do layoffs and if they sign new deals then they will still have to do layoffs based on union rules. Why would they do this??? These decisions have long term consequences.

[Chavez]

maybe they'll come up with a clever name for it that references wisconsin.

 

With McCarthyism and this, we will be DOMINATING the political-shorthand-vernacular category.

 

And if Walker survives his recall, we will also be leading in the "race to be like China" category. Whooo! It's the salad days here.

[Chavez]

I believe that workers should have a right to choose to unionize and collectively bargain or stand alone in negotiations with management.

 

 

That's a great idea - Worker:"I believe that I should be allocated sick days, as it's not good for either me OR the company if I come to work puking my guts out."

 

Mgmt - "You're fired, COMMIE."

[Chavez]

Sounds like in certain areas there is a rush to get new contracts signed ahead of Walker signing this bill. If this happens won't these local govts be screwed??

 

Walker is going to take away state aid and also try to pass a budget that stops them from raising property taxes. What will these govts due if they still are spending but lose aid and can't raise taxes???

 

They will need to do layoffs and if they sign new deals then they will still have to do layoffs based on union rules. Why would they do this??? These decisions have long term consequences.

 

 

To go back to my Mississippi comparison - if you don't want to pay high taxes, and don't give a crap about schools, services, roads, etc, then it's MUCH easier to move from city A to city B as opposed to relocating out of state.

 

The fact that Walker wants to not only control STATE spending but also tamp down MUNICIPAL spending is really showing where his true colors lie. His responsibility is to the STATE, not to the nationwide Republican base and/or large corporations. If a municipality wants to tax the living sh*t out of its residents, why shouldn't it be allowed to do so?

[Yukon Cornelius]

Firefighters in Wisconsin marched to the M&I bank earlier today in Madison and withdrew their money. In total they took an estimated $192,000.

 

When the firefighters arrived at the Capitol this morning they started the chant "MOVE YOUR MONEY!" Firefighters Local 311 President Joe Conway told the audience they should move their money out of M&I Bank. The bank was one of the leading contributors to the Walker campaign due to contributions by current and former executives and board members.

 

Chase is next

[SayItAintSoJoe]

To go back to my Mississippi comparison - if you don't want to pay high taxes, and don't give a crap about schools, services, roads, etc, then it's MUCH easier to move from city A to city B as opposed to relocating out of state.

 

The fact that Walker wants to not only control STATE spending but also tamp down MUNICIPAL spending is really showing where his true colors lie. His responsibility is to the STATE, not to the nationwide Republican base and/or large corporations. If a municipality wants to tax the living sh*t out of its residents, why shouldn't it be allowed to do so?

 

 

You're right. Lost in this whole collective bargaining debate is the issue of the state government over-stepping its authority on municipal governments.

 

The budget will put tremendous pressure on schools and local governments, which will be asked to shoulder huge cuts without raising property taxes to make up the difference.

 

Walker's budget includes a nearly 9 percent cut in aid to schools, which would amount to a reduction of nearly $900 million. The governor also proposed requiring school districts to reduce their property tax authority by an average of $550 per pupil -- a move that makes it more difficult for schools to make up the lost money.

 

Additionally, cities would get nearly $60 million less in aid, an 8.8 percent cut. Counties would lose more than $36 million, a 24 percent reduction. They would not be allowed to increase property taxes except to account for new construction.

 

Walker estimates that his controls on property taxes would save $736 over the next two years for the owner of a home valued at the median price of $161,300.

 

Congratulations Mr. Joe Homeowner your fine governor is saving you $736 in property taxes over the next 2 years on your home that is currently valued at $161K. Of course in a few years it will no longer be valued that high since the schools here suck, the city is dirty, and crime is on the rise. Don’t like it then move out of state because the governor’s property tax controls have put limits on the money that all local Wisconsin municipalities have to work with.

 

I agree with you Chavez, let local municipalities make the decisions on how much they want to charge in property taxes. Let people make their decisions on where they want to live based on these taxes vs. the services a municipality provides.

 

I don't see how those people out there that get outraged whenever they feel that the federal governement is over-stepping its authority on states are not equally as outraged when they see state governments doing the same.

[gbpfan1231]

To go back to my Mississippi comparison - if you don't want to pay high taxes, and don't give a crap about schools, services, roads, etc, then it's MUCH easier to move from city A to city B as opposed to relocating out of state.

 

The fact that Walker wants to not only control STATE spending but also tamp down MUNICIPAL spending is really showing where his true colors lie. His responsibility is to the STATE, not to the nationwide Republican base and/or large corporations. If a municipality wants to tax the living sh*t out of its residents, why shouldn't it be allowed to do so?

Why are we going to turn into Mississippi?

 

Yes Walker is going to reduce aid to local govts but now these local govts have an opportunity to offset that aid with cutbacks that they now have a bit more control of. They still have to choose to use these "tools" that Walker is giving them - There are localities that are rushing to pass contracts today so they obviously don't think they need or want these tools - this also kind of shows you where the allegiance stands.

 

There seems to be a lot of waste out there. The local govts had their hands tied on things like:

Doube Dipping of pensions

Emeritus programs in Green Bay and Madison

Not having the ability to schedule employees to reduce overtime

Pay increase NOT based on how a person actually performs the job

I think it is prison guards who can call in sick for the 8:00AM - 5:00PM shift and then work 2nd shift and get paid sick time for the first 8 hours and time and a half for the second 8 hours - written in the contract

Sick time carryover

 

All of these things add up and it shows that over time these Bargaining "rights" seem to not be helping the taxpayer. Layoffs might still happen and I would hope that if there is a layoff in my local area that the right people are laid off - not just the lowest on the seniority ladder.

 

I just hope this all works out and WI gets back on track.

 

I was reading a lot of comments on places like Journal-Sentinel and I kept reading things like "All we need to do is raise the sales tax a bit and we can cover all this shortfall" - When does raising taxes stop and we start to eliminate the junk and the waste?

[Azazello1313]

And if Walker survives his recall, we will also be leading in the "race to be like China" category.

 

you realize china is still a largely communist economy, correct?

[Azazello1313]

That's a great idea - Worker:"I believe that I should be allocated sick days, as it's not good for either me OR the company if I come to work puking my guts out."

 

Mgmt - "You're fired, COMMIE."

 

yeah, because this accurately depicts the experience of the 85% (or whatever the current number is) of american workers who AREN'T in a union.

 

you're coming into this thread with quite the flourish of harebrained propaganda.

[Azazello1313]

Congratulations Mr. Joe Homeowner your fine governor is saving you $736 in property taxes over the next 2 years on your home that is currently valued at $161K. Of course in a few years it will no longer be valued that high since the schools here suck, the city is dirty, and crime is on the rise. Don’t like it then move out of state because the governor’s property tax controls have put limits on the money that all local Wisconsin municipalities have to work with.

 

I'm curious, has this happened in other states that have implemented similar reforms?

 

this is the first I've really heard of the property tax ceiling, does anyone have any, you know, intelligently spelled out links looking at the prpoposal from either side of the argument?

[Ursa Majoris]

you realize china is still a largely communist economy, correct?

In name only. If it was really communist, it would be failing.

[gbpfan1231]

I'm curious, has this happened in other states that have implemented similar reforms?

 

this is the first I've really heard of the property tax ceiling, does anyone have any, you know, intelligently spelled out links looking at the prpoposal from either side of the argument?

This does not answer your exact question but I think localities can still raise property taxes but need to do so with a referndum - So I would guess that if the do need to raise taxes that something like this would pass if the said locality exhausted other avenues to eliminate waste.

 

Saving on Overtime pay to public workers and having public workers kick in for pensions and if layoffs are needed having the ability to layoff higher paid unproductive workers have to have an effect on how much a locality would need to raise taxes by (if any). I may not have an issue with my property taxes going up if I knew the local officials did everything they could to minimize the shortfall.

[SayItAintSoJoe]

I'm curious, has this happened in other states that have implemented similar reforms?

 

this is the first I've really heard of the property tax ceiling, does anyone have any, you know, intelligently spelled out links looking at the prpoposal from either side of the argument?

 

There are many studies out there on the effects that property tax caps have had on states over the years. Here a snippet of what has occurred in California and Massachusetts:

 

 

California

 

California's Proposition 13, a property tax cap passed in 1978, has devastated the state's public schools. The tax cap has been a major factor in a 30-plus year decline from California's status as first in the nation in student achievement to almost dead last.

 

According to researchers from Rand, K-12 spending per pupil in California fell significantly under Proposition 13, dropping from more than $600 above the national average in 1978 (when Proposition 13 was passed) to more than $600 below the national average in 2000.1 This has forced many school districts in the state to cut programs such as music, physical education, and art; reduce class offerings; and cut positions, such as librarians and counselors.2

 

California now has the second-highest student-teacher ratio of any state. And by 1999–2000, about 15% of the teacher workforce consisted of newly employed teachers, the majority of whom were not yet formally trained and certified. These relatively underqualified teachers have been concentrated in urban schools, in low performing schools, and in schools with high percentages of low-income and minority students.3

 

Test scores in California public schools are now close to the bottom. Rand researchers analyzed scores on the National Assessment of Educational Progress on reading and mathematics for 4th and 8th graders in all 50 states from 1990 through 2003. California fared worse than every state except Louisiana and Mississippi.4

 

Massachusetts

 

In 1980, Massachusetts adopted Proposition 2 ½, a law limiting property tax grow to 2.5% a year. A 2008 report from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP), Hidden Consequences: Lessons from Massachusetts for States Considering a Property Tax Cap, shows that by limiting Massachusetts localities' only major source of revenue, the law has:

 

arbitrarily constrained local governments' ability to raise revenues without any consideration of the actual cost of providing services;

made local governments heavily dependent on state aid, which tends to fluctuate with economic cycles and state policies (This is a particular problem in an economic downturn when state aid usually declines but the need for local services, such as education and fire and police protection, does not decline.);

exacerbated disparities between wealthier communities and poorer ones in terms of access to quality local services, as many of the former have voted to override Proposition 2 ½'s revenue cap while the latter have generally had to adhere to it;

triggered cuts to valued services rather than simply calling forth greater efficiency from local governments; and

forced lay-offs of teachers, police officers, firefighters, and other public employees; closed fire stations; shut libraries, senior centers, and recreation centers or sharply reduced their hours; and scaled back public school programs.

 

There's more info here: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=301 , like I said there are a lot of really in-depth economic studies on the web that attempt to prove both sides of the argument.

 

In the excerpt above I found the bolded part at the end pretty interesting because it goes to what gbpfan was stating regarding waste. Too bad it seems like governments, and many companies for that matter, always seem to reach for the axe first when looking for ways to reduce their budgets.

Edited March 11, 2011 by SayItAintSoJoe

[gbpfan1231]

There are many studies out there on the effects that property tax caps have had on states over the years. Here a snippet of what has occurred in California and Massachusetts:

 

 

California

 

California's Proposition 13, a property tax cap passed in 1978, has devastated the state's public schools. The tax cap has been a major factor in a 30-plus year decline from California's status as first in the nation in student achievement to almost dead last.

 

According to researchers from Rand, K-12 spending per pupil in California fell significantly under Proposition 13, dropping from more than $600 above the national average in 1978 (when Proposition 13 was passed) to more than $600 below the national average in 2000.1 This has forced many school districts in the state to cut programs such as music, physical education, and art; reduce class offerings; and cut positions, such as librarians and counselors.2

 

California now has the second-highest student-teacher ratio of any state. And by 1999–2000, about 15% of the teacher workforce consisted of newly employed teachers, the majority of whom were not yet formally trained and certified. These relatively underqualified teachers have been concentrated in urban schools, in low performing schools, and in schools with high percentages of low-income and minority students.3

 

Test scores in California public schools are now close to the bottom. Rand researchers analyzed scores on the National Assessment of Educational Progress on reading and mathematics for 4th and 8th graders in all 50 states from 1990 through 2003. California fared worse than every state except Louisiana and Mississippi.4

 

Massachusetts

 

In 1980, Massachusetts adopted Proposition 2 ½, a law limiting property tax grow to 2.5% a year. A 2008 report from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP), Hidden Consequences: Lessons from Massachusetts for States Considering a Property Tax Cap, shows that by limiting Massachusetts localities' only major source of revenue, the law has:

 

arbitrarily constrained local governments' ability to raise revenues without any consideration of the actual cost of providing services;

made local governments heavily dependent on state aid, which tends to fluctuate with economic cycles and state policies (This is a particular problem in an economic downturn when state aid usually declines but the need for local services, such as education and fire and police protection, does not decline.);

exacerbated disparities between wealthier communities and poorer ones in terms of access to quality local services, as many of the former have voted to override Proposition 2 ½'s revenue cap while the latter have generally had to adhere to it;

triggered cuts to valued services rather than simply calling forth greater efficiency from local governments; and

forced lay-offs of teachers, police officers, firefighters, and other public employees; closed fire stations; shut libraries, senior centers, and recreation centers or sharply reduced their hours; and scaled back public school programs.

 

There's more info here: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=301 , like I said there are a lot of really in-depth economic studies on the web that attempt to prove both sides of the argument.

 

In the excerpt above I found the bolded part at the end pretty interesting because it goes to what gbpfan was stating regarding waste. Too bad it seems like governments, and many companies for that matter, always seem to reach for the axe first when looking for ways to reduce their budgets.

Excellent article - I am guessing that in both situations they were still dealing with a public union that still had full bargaining rights. So you wonder if things that were wasteful but were still under contract could not be touched helped lead to cutting back on services and layoffs. Also you wonder if the layoffs were done so that the underperforming teachers were laid off not just the low people on the totem pole.

 

You would hope that you could trust the management in the upcoming situations to actually do things when it comes to balancing each local budget. Like I said I would not have any issue paying higher property taxes and long as I had the feeling other things were taken into consideration and dealt with.

[Ursa Majoris]

Too bad it seems like governments, and many companies for that matter, always seem to reach for the axe first when looking for ways to reduce their budgets.

But this is normal behavior. When I was in the military, efforts to cut budgets were countered by offering up programs for cutting that were certain to be rejected. No-one wanted to see personal trip allowances, office supplies, etc reduced. Better to offer something you know they won't take, then they'll go away.

 

As long as personnel in departments (and businesses too) are asked to in effect chop lumps off themselves, they are going to chop off the lumps that personally affect them the least.