Azazello1313 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 It seems the overwhelming argument against the conspiracy theory seems to be the amount of people that would need to be involved. wrong, the overwhelming argument against the conspiracy theory is the weight of evidence leading every reputable expert on the planet to endorse the "official story". the number of people who would have had to be involved is a more circumstantial argument, but a powerful one nevertheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 wrong, the overwhelming argument against the conspiracy theory is the weight of evidence leading every reputable expert on the planet to endorse the "official story". the number of people who would have had to be involved is a more circumstantial argument, but a powerful one nevertheless. So I'm guessing my thesis didn't move the needle then, huh? The same government that has been manipulating dirty little wars all over the globe for the last half century and more is not capable of bringing these techniques home for a test run? Okay then. I guess I'm just naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'm actually involved in a vast conspiracy right now. Ok, so people haven't quite started theorizing about it yet, but we hope to gain some publicity in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'm actually involved in a vast conspiracy right now. Ok, so people haven't quite started theorizing about it yet, but we hope to gain some publicity in the near future. Dismissive but not all that compelling. I'll give it a 7.4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 (edited) Okay, if that is what you are hanging your hat on, I don't know if that's what you need to hang your hat on. It's one incredibly convincing aspect amongst many others. It's much more convincing than hanging your hat on "the govt. always lies to us and I'm going to ignore the mountain of evidence that doesn't support my belief of a 9-11 conspiracy." Edited April 25, 2011 by bushwacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I don't know if that's what you need to hang your hat on. It's one incredibly convincing aspect amongst many others. It's much more convincing than hanging your hat on "the govt. always lies to us and the mountain of evidence that doesn't support my belief it's of a 9-11 conspiracy is a govt. perpetuated lie." It's easier to believe in God, than to not believe in God. But nobody REALLY knows which side is right. However each side scorns the other with such conviction as though they are positive they are right. Same thing here. Its easier to NOT believe in conspiracy theories and go with the crowd, but that doesn't make you right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 It's easier to believe in God, than to not believe in God. But nobody REALLY knows which side is right. However each side scorns the other with such conviction as though they are positive they are right. Same thing here. Its easier to NOT believe in conspiracy theories and go with the crowd, but that doesn't make you right. Check that: ...doesn't necessarily make you right. You may be right. I am capable of saying that, are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 So let's assume the govt was in on this and planned the whole thing..... Why? Just to go into war with Iraq? You don't think if that was the end goal it could have been done with a much smaller type of cover up? So they were so dang good and smart that they would kill 3,000 people and make it look like a terrorist attack but they couldn't even handle hiding a few WMD's in Iraq to make the war look a little better??? I can tell you one thing - if I seriously thought that the govt would have done something so disgusting I would be so appalled that there would be zero chance I would still live in a country so horrible that the govt conspired to kill thousands of innocent lives and covered it all up. This is a great thread and I discussed it a bit with my extended family during Easter brunch - my mom said that one of her friends believes that 9-11 was an inside job - it was kinda funny when the other 8 people having brunch all agreed within seconds that this person was certifiable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'm just a guy with an open mind wondering why people dismiss these theories and the people that purport them as though the whole concept is beyond belief. And those that choose to question are beyond help. The term you're looking for is cognitive dissonance. It's far easier to dismiss a conflicting idea or person than to objectively view something you're biased/predisposed to thinking is absurd. The conspiracy-bashers may claim that we "want to believe", but even if there were overwhelming undeniable evidence to support our claims, alot still would deny it because they simply don't want to believe it's possible... Probably the one good piece of insight from that shallow "science of why we don't believe in science" article is that most people seek to prove by deducing upon the hypothesis they already believe, rather than working inductively from evidence up to form a conclusion/hypothesis. Us "truthers" don't claim to have the answers, just the things that we don't think add up. None of us went in with this same attitude of insisting we're right (in fact, I was biased against the possibility before I looked into it). We examined the evidence to come to these questions, which is something that I don't think the most of the bashers here are really willing to do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilthorp Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 So this was a Paul Wolfowitz and Donald Rumsfield play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Why? Just to go into war with Iraq? You don't think if that was the end goal it could have been done with a much smaller type of cover up? So they seems like they woulda picked some iraqis to be the stooges in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 So let's assume the govt was in on this and planned the whole thing..... Why? Just to go into war with Iraq? You don't think if that was the end goal it could have been done with a much smaller type of cover up? So they were so dang good and smart that they would kill 3,000 people and make it look like a terrorist attack but they couldn't even handle hiding a few WMD's in Iraq to make the war look a little better??? I can tell you one thing - if I seriously thought that the govt would have done something so disgusting I would be so appalled that there would be zero chance I would still live in a country so horrible that the govt conspired to kill thousands of innocent lives and covered it all up. This is a great thread and I discussed it a bit with my extended family during Easter brunch - my mom said that one of her friends believes that 9-11 was an inside job - it was kinda funny when the other 8 people having brunch all agreed within seconds that this person was certifiable. It's just not about going to war with Iraq. President Bush named it the "War on Terror." And the war on terror necessitated the Patriot Act, 10 years later it is still with us. It isn't going away. Our government can sell us on any war, any erosion of personal freedom with this handy little War on Terror. Its a nice thing to have around. But there had to be a declaration of war. I mean, that's what those wacky conspiracy theorists would have you believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 So let's assume the govt was in on this and planned the whole thing..... Why? Just to go into war with Iraq? You don't think if that was the end goal it could have been done with a much smaller type of cover up? So they were so dang good and smart that they would kill 3,000 people and make it look like a terrorist attack but they couldn't even handle hiding a few WMD's in Iraq to make the war look a little better??? You assume the government cares about looking good. Just like Az's article said about the Bushies, they can always play the "incompetence" card later. Doesn't change the possible motives of taking civil liberties and setting up permanent bases (yes, we're still in Vietnam, Germany, Japan, etc.) in the resource-rich region. Do you really think people would have gone for invading sovereign nations that hadn't provoked us without this catalyst? You don't think that the fear-laden rhetoric of WMDs getting into terrorists hands was not a huge part of the support for going in? I certainly do. Regardless of whether it was an inside job, the PNAC (Rumsfeld, Kristol, etc.) doucmneted it well in the PNAC report in 1996, that "absent a new Pearl Harbor", their plan for rapid dominance and revoultionary change in the region would fail; Thus, it certainly was convenient and they used the event to their full military advantage. That much is clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 It's easier to believe in God, than to not believe in God. But nobody REALLY knows which side is right. However each side scorns the other with such conviction as though they are positive they are right. Same thing here. Its easier to NOT believe in conspiracy theories and go with the crowd, but that doesn't make you right. Well, not sure if that's the best analogy. I suppose nobody really knows if the Japanese really bombed Pearl Harbor because the govt. could have lied to us about that also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 (edited) Well, not sure if that's the best analogy. I suppose nobody really knows if the Japanese really bombed Pearl Harbor because the govt. could have lied to us about that also. Nice job. I knew we could count on you to pick a worse analogy. Were you running the Pentagon when Pearl Harbor happened? Because war is a very dirty game where anything is possible, and all the inner-workings are purposefully hidden. "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu I'm sure you can find worse acts perpetrated throughout history that have come to light now, so I wouldn't put anything past anyone when money and greed are involved. It's amazing the messed up things people are capable of when they become disattached from the consequences of their actions. Edited April 25, 2011 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Nice job. I knew we could count on you to pick a worse analogy. Were you running the Pentagon when Pearl Harbor happened? Because war is a very dirty game where anything is possible, and all the inner-workings are purposefully hidden. "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu I'm sure you can find worse acts perpetrated throughout history that have come to light now, so I wouldn't put anything past anyone when money and greed are involved. It's amazing the messed up things people are capable of when they become disattached from the consequences of their actions. Wait a minute...man you just blew my mind. Humans are capable of unbelievable atrocities. The hell you say... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Nice job. I knew we could count on you to pick a worse analogy. Pearl Harbor to 9-11 is a worse analogy than belief in God to 9-11? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Pearl Harbor to 9-11 is a worse analogy than belief in God to 9-11? OK, you got me. I'm really curious to hear how your analogy has anything to do with the fact that it's easier to dismiss something than to actually examine and have an open mind about it... In fact, I have no clue what your point is, other than that, there's no way of knowing what we don't know. Very insightful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathpig Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I just want to know if this thread is evidence that I'm going to have to listen to 'Is Obama an American citizen?' conspiracy talk in 2018. God 9/11 help us if that's the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattsass Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I don't care if he has a birth certificate or not. Where he was born is of little consequence in relation to the damage he has done to this country, so I wish people would get off that crap and start attacking him for the myriad of other things he should be held accountable for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I don't care if he has a birth certificate or not. Where he was born is of little consequence in relation to the damage he has done to this country, so I wish people would get off that crap and start attacking him for the myriad of other things he should be held accountable for. True - off tangent a bit but heard today some guy is saying that Obama was born here and does have a birth cert to prove it but he is now implying that Obama does not want people to see the birth cert because of something on the birth cert - rumor sounds like it may be something like it not being the father he has said has shaped his life. That seems a lot more reasonable than him being Kenyan - but hey what do I know - as of yesterday I thought 9-11 was a terror attack!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 It's easier to believe in God, than to not believe in God. But nobody REALLY knows which side is right. However each side scorns the other with such conviction as though they are positive they are right. Same thing here. Its easier to NOT believe in conspiracy theories and go with the crowd, but that doesn't make you right. Good post. All of your posts in this thread have been spot on in fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 True - off tangent a bit but heard today some guy is saying that Obama was born here and does have a birth cert to prove it but he is now implying that Obama does not want people to see the birth cert because of something on the birth cert - rumor sounds like it may be something like it not being the father he has said has shaped his life. That seems a lot more reasonable than him being Kenyan - but hey what do I know - as of yesterday I thought 9-11 was a terror attack!! I say the same thing about Obama....he has a certificate of birth, but they won't show a birth certificate.... I don't even question that he's born in the US....I think that something else is being hidden.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 So let's assume the govt was in on this and planned the whole thing..... Why? Just to go into war with Iraq? You don't think if that was the end goal it could have been done with a much smaller type of cover up? So they were so dang good and smart that they would kill 3,000 people and make it look like a terrorist attack but they couldn't even handle hiding a few WMD's in Iraq to make the war look a little better??? I can tell you one thing - if I seriously thought that the govt would have done something so disgusting I would be so appalled that there would be zero chance I would still live in a country so horrible that the govt conspired to kill thousands of innocent lives and covered it all up. This is a great thread and I discussed it a bit with my extended family during Easter brunch - my mom said that one of her friends believes that 9-11 was an inside job - it was kinda funny when the other 8 people having brunch all agreed within seconds that this person was certifiable. I think it's incorrect to say that the government (in a general sense) planned the whole thing. My personal belief is that the banking elite of the world planned it and probably very few govt officials knew about it (I don't think Bush knew chit). If you think this is far-fetched I would encourage you todo some research on the Rothschild family for one and move from there. These guys have been funding several sides of wars for centuries. The facts are out there if you just dig a little. As for the 'WHY?'. Well if you accept that there is a banking elite that essentially runs the world and you view the world from that angle, the big picture becomes clear, imo - the big picture being that these elite aim to write/change laws that give them more power while simultaneously stripping away the liberties of the masses. The New World Order is real. But anyways, as for the 'WHY?', here are 2 good reasons I can think of that have nothing to do with invading Iraq and everything to do with creating new laws that strip our liberties (again from the perspective of believing a banking elite want a one-world government and complete control over the masses): USA PATRIOT Act (btw, this act itself ammended several other laws) Information Awareness Office Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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