Griding Down America

[muck]

What do you make of this?

[westvirginia]

Anyone notice "How to see through clothes" in the list of suggestions?

 

Only an idiot or liar would deny there is some truth in this, because it's the same method the Fabian society had used in England a century or more earlier. But as presented, it's just a bunch of possibly relevant dots connected loosely asserting something for which it offers little proof. I do, however, believe the environmental movement is stridently anti-capitalist. Whether this is by design or happenstance, I'm not sure.

[Ursa Majoris]

How does anyone ever take this nonsense seriously?

[cliaz]

give me enough time and I can do a video just like convincing people that Judge Judy is a short, black 22 year guy. Reality is perception. People will bend information to their ideas. Just look at loose change documentary for example.

[rocknrobn26]

give me enough time and I can do a video just like convincing people that Judge Judy is a short, black 22 year guy. Reality is perception. People will bend information to their ideas. Just look at loose change documentary for example.

Judge JUDY!!!!!!!!???????????

Don't even think about attacking her!

The documentary is so ultra christian stoopid It's beyond belief. It's amazing what vomit people will swallow!

Edited August 20, 2011 by rocknrobn26

[Yukon Cornelius]

Anyone notice "How to see through clothes" in the list of suggestions?

I do, however, believe the environmental movement is stridently anti-capitalist. .

of course you do.....

[Chavez]

I do, however, believe the environmental movement is stridently anti-capitalist. Whether this is by design or happenstance, I'm not sure.

 

 

Well, to a large extent the basis of manufacturing is the exploitation of natural resources. And from the Industrial Revolution to the present day, the sole concern of the manufacturers has been getting the raw materials from where they are found to the factory.

 

All other concerns are generally negligible. So while I don't think it is necessarily the idea of capitalism that is necessarily the Devil, I think that there is a strong sentiment that capitalism as currently practiced needs to go.

[Deathpig]

Well, to a large extent the basis of manufacturing is the exploitation of natural resources. And from the Industrial Revolution to the present day, the sole concern of the manufacturers has been getting the raw materials from where they are found to the factory.

 

All other concerns are generally negligible. So while I don't think it is necessarily the idea of capitalism that is necessarily the Devil, I think that there is a strong sentiment that capitalism as currently practiced needs to go.

 

Now I'm really curious.

 

So how would you describe this new practice of capitalism? What are its fundamental tenets that would make it so much better than the clearly unpopular and unsuccessful brand we have now?

[westvirginia]

Judge JUDY!!!!!!!!???????????

Don't even think about attacking her!

The documentary is so ultra christian stoopid It's beyond belief. It's amazing what vomit people will swallow!

 

So Christian=stoopid in your worldview, Tommy? I know that's not what you meant is it?

[westvirginia]

Well, to a large extent the basis of manufacturing is the exploitation of natural resources. And from the Industrial Revolution to the present day, the sole concern of the manufacturers has been getting the raw materials from where they are found to the factory.

 

All other concerns are generally negligible. So while I don't think it is necessarily the idea of capitalism that is necessarily the Devil, I think that there is a strong sentiment that capitalism as currently practiced needs to go.

 

Absolutely NOT TRUE. You're confusing capitalism with manufacturing, which occurs in every form of government. If this were the case, then why were the old soviets, the red chinese, and the rest of the com-bloc countries FAR worse polluters than the US? Even at our worst, we never committed the polution those countries did. In fact, it's BECAUSE we're capitalist with far greater standards of living that we have the room in our daily lives for a social conscience.

 

Now I'm really curious.

 

So how would you describe this new practice of capitalism? What are its fundamental tenets that would make it so much better than the clearly unpopular and unsuccessful brand we have now?

 

There is no "new capitalism". There is a spectrum with lassez faire on one end and command economy on the other. All economies fall somewhere in that spectrum.

[Ursa Majoris]

In fact, it's BECAUSE we're capitalist with far greater standards of living that we have the room in our daily lives for a social conscience.

Not true. It isn't capitalism vs socialism in this question, it's democracy vs totalitarianism.

[westvirginia]

Not true. It isn't capitalism vs socialism in this question, it's democracy vs totalitarianism.

 

First of all, democracy is a government that caters to the mindless whims of the masses. A herd of cattle is a democracy. We are a government of law, NOT of men. Secondly, the if you don't have the freedom of private property and the freedom to make your own economic choices, then you don't have freedom, do you? Why do you think totalitarian regimes are almost always command economies? Starve a man's children by your control of the economy and he's damn sure going to do what you want, isn't he?

[Clubfoothead]

Starve a man's children by your control of the economy and he's damn sure going to do what you want, isn't he?

 

So I guess the question is do I trust a government I elect or a bunch of profiteering pigs who care for nothing but their profit margin to be in control.

[rocknrobn26]

So Christian=stoopid in your worldview, Tommy? I know that's not what you meant is it?

 

You missed the word "ultra".

[Ursa Majoris]

First of all, democracy is a government that caters to the mindless whims of the masses. A herd of cattle is a democracy. We are a government of law, NOT of men. Secondly, the if you don't have the freedom of private property and the freedom to make your own economic choices, then you don't have freedom, do you? Why do you think totalitarian regimes are almost always command economies? Starve a man's children by your control of the economy and he's damn sure going to do what you want, isn't he?

That has nothing to do with the point I made. Simply, in a democracy (and you can nitpick that but I'm using the word in the general sense of people having rights) anti-pollutionists have much more sway than in a totalitarian regime. This isn't a function of the economic system but the political system.

[westvirginia]

You missed the word "ultra".

 

I didn't miss it, I just wasn't sure what the difference was between me and an "ultra" Christian. If you're talking about someone who wants to make the world conform to their religious view, well that's not unique to Christians is it?

[Chavez]

Absolutely NOT TRUE. You're confusing capitalism with manufacturing, which occurs in every form of government. If this were the case, then why were the old soviets, the red chinese, and the rest of the com-bloc countries FAR worse polluters than the US? Even at our worst, we never committed the polution those countries did. In fact, it's BECAUSE we're capitalist with far greater standards of living that we have the room in our daily lives for a social conscience.

 

There is no "new capitalism". There is a spectrum with lassez faire on one end and command economy on the other. All economies fall somewhere in that spectrum.

 

 

More the capitalist mindset of squeezing every last dime of profit humanly possible out of anything, without regard to long-term consequences. Though I used manufacturing as the prime example, you can see it in areas like factory farming and the crap that they pull in the financial sector.

[muck]

I didn't miss it, I just wasn't sure what the difference was between me and an "ultra" Christian. If you're talking about someone who wants to make the world conform to their religious view, well that's not unique to Christians is it?

 

And, aguably, the word "make" in your sentence renders the application to Christianity moot.

 

IMO, Jesus, as the embodiment of the essence of Christianity, isn't / wasn't about "making" people do anything. Encourage? Sure. Guide and lead? Yup. Make? No.

 

Now, if we want to look at any of a variety of other somewhat common religious teachings, some of them are full of "if you don't, we will kill you". And, to me, that is the ultimate definition of "make". That sort of "make" is not present in Christs' teachings (or at least any of which I'm aware).

[Chavez]

...and when it comes down to it, I would probably paraphrase Winston Churchill in that "capitalism is the worst economic system, except for all the other ones."

 

I certainly fall on the "social libertarian" side of things; however when you compare the damage that any individual can do to the damage a single corporation can do, I can't embrace laissez faire capitalism; I think you need corporation on a very short leash, with a very tight collar.

 

 

One last thing - I'd say that on reflection your statement that the environmental movement is anti-CAPITALIST is incorrect; it's more that it's stridently anti-CORPORATE. I think there's a difference.

[westvirginia]

That has nothing to do with the point I made. Simply, in a democracy (and you can nitpick that but I'm using the word in the general sense of people having rights) anti-pollutionists have much more sway than in a totalitarian regime. This isn't a function of the economic system but the political system.

 

Again, I respectfully disagree. Before you worry about the quality of the air, or water, or whether you're making the snail darter extinct, you have to satisfy enough of your needs and wants so that you have room in your life to worry about the welfare of these things. That requires a prosperous economy. Any time you move away from the totally anarchist lassez faire model, you put blocks up in that economy (please note I'm not necessarily suggesting complete anarchy, as ones rights must be protected). The more socialist the economy, the less productive it will be. The less productive it is, the more time one must spend worrying about their needs and the less they care about the rivers and air.

[westvirginia]

...and when it comes down to it, I would probably paraphrase Winston Churchill in that "capitalism is the worst economic system, except for all the other ones."

 

I certainly fall on the "social libertarian" side of things; however when you compare the damage that any individual can do to the damage a single corporation can do, I can't embrace laissez faire capitalism; I think you need corporation on a very short leash, with a very tight collar.

 

 

One last thing - I'd say that on reflection your statement that the environmental movement is anti-CAPITALIST is incorrect; it's more that it's stridently anti-CORPORATE. I think there's a difference.

 

I know you and I agree more than we disagree, but I think there is a HUGH anti-private property sentiment in the environmental movement. They want gov't to buy up wilderness land because if a "captialist pig" bought it, he might cut down old-growth trees. You see what I'm saying? Like I said though, I'm not sure if it's by design or just coincedence in the confluence of interests.

[Chavez]

I think there is a HUGH anti-private property sentiment in the environmental movement. They want gov't to buy up wilderness land because if a "captialist pig" bought it, he might cut down old-growth trees. You see what I'm saying? Like I said though, I'm not sure if it's by design or just coincedence in the confluence of interests.

 

 

Maybe in the lunatic fringe side of things, yes, you could say that. But there's also a moderate side to the movement - people like myself, I'd say - who aren't "NO PRIVATE PROPERTY!" to more along the lines of "you know, we should attempt to get more in line with being stewards of the environment, as opposed to mere exploiters.

 

And maybe I'm hypocritical on that, because I sure as hell like my big TV and two cars and 2000 sq ft house and all that.

[rocknrobn26]

I didn't miss it, I just wasn't sure what the difference was between me and an "ultra" Christian. If you're talking about someone who wants to make the world conform to their religious view, well that's not unique to Christians is it?

 

I apologize, I should have said "ultra religious". Maybe my mistake was because all I see lately is the religious/christian right espousing anit-gay, anti-single parent, anti-abortion, and taking the Bible too literally and I'm sick of it. To me any group that wants to usurp the philosophy of "Separation of church and state" is wrong. It was, in my opinion, why people came here. Argue that if you want, but right or left those separation rights are sacred to me. Don't get me started on Raygun who used it w/ many evangelicals including but not limited to "Jimmy' the FELON' Bakker back when. That sleazy basturd should still be in jail.

Come to think of it I should have said religious nutballs, as religion and politics in MY USA should never be equated as even ground. One has nothing to do w/ the other and politics and religion in this country should be totally separate. If that includes the words "under god" so be it.

[rocknrobn26]

Maybe in the lunatic fringe side of things, yes, you could say that. But there's also a moderate side to the movement - people like myself, I'd say - who aren't "NO PRIVATE PROPERTY!" to more along the lines of "you know, we should attempt to get more in line with being stewards of the environment, as opposed to mere exploiters.

 

And maybe I'm hypocritical on that, because I sure as hell like my big TV and two cars and 2000 sq ft house and all that.

 

1 Big TV? (I have 2)

2000 sq ft house? (my garage is bigger den dat)

2 Cars??? (I forgot how many I have.)

Are you poor?

Move from sconny. Better jobs here in FIB country.

[Chavez]

1 Big TV? (I have 2)

2000 sq ft house? (my garage is bigger den dat)

2 Cars??? (I forgot how many I have.)

Are you poor?

Move from sconny. Better jobs here in FIB country.

Scoot Walker says yer a lying FIB.