bpwallace49 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 You are a chives bag!Who'd a thunk that!?? In relation to Tosberg? . . . well . . . . pretty much everybody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 You are a chives bag!Who'd a thunk that!?? That was pretty funny, though. What's even more funny is that he actually DOES bag groceries for a living! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 In relation to Tosberg? . . . well . . . . pretty much everybody? Even though you're a stinkin' packer fan..that was.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 In relation to Tosberg? . . . well . . . . pretty much everybody? That hurts. And here I though we were . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 That was pretty funny, though. What's even more funny is that he actually DOES bag groceries for a living! What you don't know would fill volumes. I guess you take pride in being ignorant and a chives! Bravo...you found your place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 What you don't know would fill volumes.I guess you take pride in being ignorant and a chives! Bravo...you found your place. Dude, you don't even know me so stop acting like you're all that and a bag of chips. So much vitriol at a little jab. Boy, you girls sure are sensitive. Do you need a hug? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 and I'm sure these are rigorous examinations with stiff consequences for subpar performance and missed goals. ahhhhhh yup they are but you would know that wouldn't you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) Dude, you don't even know me so stop acting like you're all that and a bag of chips. So much vitriol at a little jab. Boy, you girls sure are sensitive. Do you need a hug? Thank god for that! When you get on Yuke's ass (and many others around here), you get on mine. Deal w/ that. He has way more credibility that you could ever hope to have. When you get out of Jr. HS, let me know and we can talk. Edited October 7, 2011 by rocknrobn26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Thank god for that!When you get on Yuke's ass (and many others around here), you get on mine. Deal w/ that. He has way more credibility that you could ever hope to have. When you get out of Jr. HS, let me know and we can talk. Dude - chill out - the wedding is going to go fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Dude - chill out - the wedding is going to go fine. I appreciate that...I truly do. Just leave Nuke alone...not that he needs my support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 What I'm always curious about is, how do we "reward good teachers" without increasing the education budget? Or is the "reward" for excelling at a job that you're not going to get rich doing simply not getting fired. I'm sure that'll make a ton of people want to do it. I've got this far down the thread and Detlef has asked the unanswerable. What "reward" are we going to give these excellent teachers without raising the education budget, something that would send gbpfan and the rest shrieking for the hills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosberg34 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) I appreciate that...I truly do.Just leave Nuke alone...not that he needs my support. Leave Yuke alone? Can't he fight his own battles? What Yuke and I got you can never come between anyways so stop with the overprotective father bit already. It's cute, but very unbecoming of someone of your advanced age. In fact, it's actually kind of silly. You need to just chill, dude. It's all good. Edited October 7, 2011 by tosberg34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 That said our public education system is broken. I believe it is broken because of legislators and parents. Legislators, and to an extent courts, have stripped our teachers of authority. It is difficult to teach without authority. Additionally legislators have demanded that teachers expand (read water down) the cirriculum so that teachers now are responsible for basic socialization of overly entitled brats brought into the school without the basic skills to be even minimal members of society. That brings us to parents. They fail to raise their kids. They fail to scocialize them and teach them even the minimal standards of behavior. They then expect the schools to do their jobs. Parents, you have to work in close harmony with the schools. If you don't participate at the school and add value rather than constantly detracting you are not a good parent. The school day is not a vacation from parenting, it is an opportunity for parenting. No teacher can be expected to excel under those conditions, and yet some do. Still and all a system of tenure enforced by unions who wish to ignore market forces can only exacerbate the problem. Public education is broken? What public schools do your kids attend? Mine attend Victor H. Hexter Elementary. Nothing broken there. Blowhards who want public education to fail so that it can be replaced by the "free market" say that a lot but of course they say that because they hope public education fails. There is nothing on the free market that can come close to competing with Hexter Elementary and even if there were, there would be no way I could afford it for my kids. That school certainly doesn't need "help" from anyone who incorrectly thinks public education is broken and the only thing it's missing is profit motive. If your local public schools in Colorado suck, go fix it with your "free market" approcah but leave ours alone, it doesn't need fixed to begin with and if it did need fixed, why would I listen to someone who wants it to fail anyways? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 I've got this far down the thread and Detlef has asked the unanswerable. What "reward" are we going to give these excellent teachers without raising the education budget, something that would send gbpfan and the rest shrieking for the hills. Did you ever think people that are against throwing more money at education might be against it because the money we are throwing at it does not seem to work? Yes someone (I forget who) says that their schools are just fine and don't need fixing - that is great and they then don't need to be fixed. That can't be said for a lot of public schools and money has been thrown at it but does not work. Now - if some things maybe changed and that showed progress and because of that money the overall teaching improved and that lead to students learning more I am pretty sure you would see people willing to spend more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Public education is broken? What public schools do your kids attend? Mine attend Victor H. Hexter Elementary. Nothing broken there. Blowhards who want public education to fail so that it can be replaced by the "free market" say that a lot but of course they say that because they hope public education fails. There is nothing on the free market that can come close to competing with Hexter Elementary and even if there were, there would be no way I could afford it for my kids. That school certainly doesn't need "help" from anyone who incorrectly thinks public education is broken and the only thing it's missing is profit motive. If your local public schools in Colorado suck, go fix it with your "free market" approcah but leave ours alone, it doesn't need fixed to begin with and if it did need fixed, why would I listen to someone who wants it to fail anyways? Is missing the point something you do often, or was this a special occassion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Is missing the point something you do often, or was this a special occassion? It's broken and needs a free market fix. Your words. I asked you one question that you failed to answer and you calim I'm missing the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 It's broken and needs a free market fix. Your words. I asked you one question that you failed to answer and you calim I'm missing the point? I do indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Did you ever think people that are against throwing more money at education might be against it because the money we are throwing at it does not seem to work? Yes someone (I forget who) says that their schools are just fine and don't need fixing - that is great and they then don't need to be fixed. That can't be said for a lot of public schools and money has been thrown at it but does not work. Now - if some things maybe changed and that showed progress and because of that money the overall teaching improved and that lead to students learning more I am pretty sure you would see people willing to spend more. I think you're missing my point. I'm simply amused at the rhetoric given about "shouldn't we reward the good teachers?" coming from the same people who are looking to slash education budgets because the schools are broken. I guess I just don't see how those two theories can coincide. However, I would also ask this. Is the problem with our education system that our schools are overrun with bad teachers with bloated salaries? Or could it be that far too many parents expect their role in their child's education that they send them to school each day and expect them to come home "smart"? In our zeal to hold teachers accountable for results, are we completely ignoring the role of the parent? That's not a rhetorical question, because I'm not involved with education. I have friends who teach, and based on conversation, they seem like they really care. But I honestly don't know. Which, I would postulate, puts me in league with nearly all the guys on gbpfan's side of the argument who seem to think they have the answers. But I can't help but wonder if this is just another "welfare mama". An insidious epidemic that is bankrupting our country that actually is nowhere near as wide-spread as some would claim. It's just a nice argument to hitch your wagon to because nobody likes a bad teacher (unless she's an overrated starlet with a freakishly large mouth who's publicist bought her a spot in Maxim's top 5) any more than they like a woman on food stamps driving an Escalade. Two) As for "throwing more money at it". That only qualifies if we're already throwing enough at it. Maybe we are, maybe we're not. If you've got a leaky pipe and you "spend" a few bucks in duct tape trying to fix it but your wife complains that it still leaks. Is hiring a plumber "just throwing more money at the problem?" Shouldn't you wait and see if the duct tape starts to work a little bit before you waste even more resources on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Did you ever think people that are against throwing more money at education might be against it because the money we are throwing at it does not seem to work? Yes someone (I forget who) says that their schools are just fine and don't need fixing - that is great and they then don't need to be fixed. That can't be said for a lot of public schools and money has been thrown at it but does not work. Now - if some things maybe changed and that showed progress and because of that money the overall teaching improved and that lead to students learning more I am pretty sure you would see people willing to spend more. I agree about the money not being the solution, as I've stated here many times. However, I still want to know just how and by how much you are going to reward the good teachers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 I think you're missing my point. I'm simply amused at the rhetoric given about "shouldn't we reward the good teachers?" coming from the same people who are looking to slash education budgets because the schools are broken. I guess I just don't see how those two theories can coincide. However, I would also ask this. Is the problem with our education system that our schools are overrun with bad teachers with bloated salaries? Or could it be that far too many parents expect their role in their child's education that they send them to school each day and expect them to come home "smart"? In our zeal to hold teachers accountable for results, are we completely ignoring the role of the parent? That's not a rhetorical question, because I'm not involved with education. I have friends who teach, and based on conversation, they seem like they really care. But I honestly don't know. Which, I would postulate, puts me in league with nearly all the guys on gbpfan's side of the argument who seem to think they have the answers. But I can't help but wonder if this is just another "welfare mama". An insidious epidemic that is bankrupting our country that actually is nowhere near as wide-spread as some would claim. It's just a nice argument to hitch your wagon to because nobody likes a bad teacher (unless she's an overrated starlet with a freakishly large mouth who's publicist bought her a spot in Maxim's top 5) any more than they like a woman on food stamps driving an Escalade. Two) As for "throwing more money at it". That only qualifies if we're already throwing enough at it. Maybe we are, maybe we're not. If you've got a leaky pipe and you "spend" a few bucks in duct tape trying to fix it but your wife complains that it still leaks. Is hiring a plumber "just throwing more money at the problem?" Shouldn't you wait and see if the duct tape starts to work a little bit before you waste even more resources on it? Agree with your points 100%. I also am guessing that the biggest problem with our education is the role of the parent - now - that does not mean that every teacher is good. This discussion was not intended to bring in the role of the parents. The only point I am making in this discussion is that there are teachers that are better than other teachers and the system seems to have no issues treating these people the same - and if that is true I can see where some (not all) would lose the motivation to becoime better teachers and that in turn will hurt the students. I am not comparing teachers to NFL players - I am not saying all teachers are bad - I am not saying teachers are overpaid - I am nto saying unions are horrible. I am just saying that if you treat them all the same I can see how some will deteriorate with a lack of motivation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I do indeed. You'd be incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Agree with your points 100%. I also am guessing that the biggest problem with our education is the role of the parent - now - that does not mean that every teacher is good. This discussion was not intended to bring in the role of the parents. The only point I am making in this discussion is that there are teachers that are better than other teachers and the system seems to have no issues treating these people the same - and if that is true I can see where some (not all) would lose the motivation to becoime better teachers and that in turn will hurt the students. I am not comparing teachers to NFL players - I am not saying all teachers are bad - I am not saying teachers are overpaid - I am nto saying unions are horrible. I am just saying that if you treat them all the same I can see how some will deteriorate with a lack of motivation. Another point that bears mention is that "treating people the same" pay-wise, is not hugely unique to education. How many professions, outside of sales, are people truly compensated for their worth without being promoted? I mean, it seems rather common that, when people stay in the same position, they keep getting small raises over time. Union or not. Which would sort of lead to a situation much like what we have with teachers. Sure, some young hot-shot may leap-frog an older co-worker for a promotion, but how often to they leap-frog them in pay without being promoted? After all, we're talking about teachers staying teachers, not being promoted to administration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Another point that bears mention is that "treating people the same" pay-wise, is not hugely unique to education. How many professions, outside of sales, are people truly compensated for their worth without being promoted? I mean, it seems rather common that, when people stay in the same position, they keep getting small raises over time. Union or not. Which would sort of lead to a situation much like what we have with teachers. Sure, some young hot-shot may leap-frog an older co-worker for a promotion, but how often to they leap-frog them in pay without being promoted? After all, we're talking about teachers staying teachers, not being promoted to administration. It's a good point. I work in sales and you'd be surprised how many places are set up as salaried with profit sharing. A salesman may have a higher cut of the profit sharing pie than someone in quotes or order entry, but that doesn't mean that the salesman aren't in a similar boat pay wise. So the overall pay may fluctuate it doesn't mean that salesman A (who had a better year) makes much more than salesman B (who had a down year). We primarily call on Engineers and while there are some studs who climb up the ladder to partner/vice-president/etc the majority of them work for salaries that get slowly upped over the years. Many of the businesses I've dealt with are very similar to the McDonald's method. While there might be more money made by the manager of a distributor than a manager at McDonald's, but they only pay what they have to and the real cash is kept by the owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Public education is broken? What public schools do your kids attend? Mine attend Victor H. Hexter Elementary. Nothing broken there. Blowhards who want public education to fail so that it can be replaced by the "free market" say that a lot but of course they say that because they hope public education fails. There is nothing on the free market that can come close to competing with Hexter Elementary and even if there were, there would be no way I could afford it for my kids. That school certainly doesn't need "help" from anyone who incorrectly thinks public education is broken and the only thing it's missing is profit motive. If your local public schools in Colorado suck, go fix it with your "free market" approcah but leave ours alone, it doesn't need fixed to begin with and if it did need fixed, why would I listen to someone who wants it to fail anyways? thank yooouuu, rick perry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Another point that bears mention is that "treating people the same" pay-wise, is not hugely unique to education. How many professions, outside of sales, are people truly compensated for their worth without being promoted? I mean, it seems rather common that, when people stay in the same position, they keep getting small raises over time. Union or not. Which would sort of lead to a situation much like what we have with teachers. Sure, some young hot-shot may leap-frog an older co-worker for a promotion, but how often to they leap-frog them in pay without being promoted? After all, we're talking about teachers staying teachers, not being promoted to administration. Most places I have worked including now give managers a set amount they are allowed to give out in merit pay - this has been very small or nothing the last 2-3 years but usually it is up to the managers discretion to pay that amount out how he/she sees fit. I have seen many occsions where one employee gets a 5% raise and another in the same department with same title gets zero. Our sales guys here get paid on a commission basis and the good salespeople (yes it is not hard for us to see who is good and bad) are rewarded more than bad salespeople. Maybe the places I have worked are in the minority and maybe that is why my opinion is what it is?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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