So if winning is all that matters...

[WaterMan]

A team that wins a game cannot attribute that win to any one player.

 

 

Tell that to the Colts this year.

[Azazello1313]

I know you and Billy are trying to troll this as hard as possible with your awesome Tebow avatars, but the thread is about perceptions, not a direct comparison. People aren't saying that Sanchez "isn't an NFL QB" because he averages more than 130 passing yards a game. But there aren't many objective people left who still claim that he's a good or franchise QB. They aren't saying he's "an experiment destined to fail" because he doesn't have such glaring mechanical issues like Tebow (his are more turnover and poor decision issues as much as mechanics, which you can argue could be just as bad, but it's obvioulsy different than a guy who actually is a non-traditional QB "experiment").... You must be fishing, because this is what drives the Tebow detractors crazy, that I gave a very similar response about Sanchez as Tebow before I knew what this thread was about, yet when I say similar negative comments in a Tebow thread, then I'm a hater... You do realize that as much as you guys believe in him, there are lots of reasons to doubt he can make it over that hump to be a sustainable QB, right?

 

Further, show me all the intelligent people who say that Sanchez can still improve to be great, because the consensus I've seen is that he's just not turning out to be a good QB... I'd actually say that most GM's would now take Tebow, with him having the unknown factor that he could improve and be really good (as we see flashes of, mixed in with 3 quarters of tremendously ugly play). We know Sanchez isn't (though if you did take him, it would obviously be because he has a better chance to break 200 yards passing most games right now, rather than being forced to run an outdated option game)...

 

But seriously, will you and Billy please stop acting like Tebow's some sort of victim. Your massive polarizing in his favor only drives people like me to take the other side, when people who doubt his NFL mechanics can't even express their opinions without being treated like they're only basing it on bias...

 

wow, you seem to have some issues. I just said almost the exact same thing as caveman nick two posts above this, let's see if you try and jump down his throat for "massive polarizing in his favor".

[WaterMan]

Where are the anti Tebow avatars?

[jetsfan]

 

Tell that to the Colts this year.

 

It is quite shocking how the entire Colts organization embraced losing once it was clear that Manning was out. I suppose 0-16 was more palatable than 6-10.

[delusions of grandeur]

wow, you seem to have some issues. I just said almost the exact same thing as caveman nick two posts above this, let's see if you try and jump down his throat for "massive polarizing in his favor".

Maybe that's because he isn't flat out making up crap that there's some sort of double-standard that Sanchez isn't subject to like Tebow is... When I bumped a Stafford/Sanchez comparison thread early this year, people who didn't realize it was two-year-old thread asked "Is this a joke?".... As for CN, he hasn't been constantly trolling the issue so I'll simply respectfully disagree that we should "admit that maybe they didn't have the best grasp on all of the elements that the guy brings to the table when he is leading a team.", after he just got done finishing explaining how the perceptions were similar of Sanchez and Flacco in their rookie years, but have since come back down to earth.... When Tebow spends 3 quarters of games playing terrible, then why would I admit that?

 

And yes I suppose I do have an issue. Issues of hearing about nothing but Tebow all the time, when he hasn't even proven that he can consistently throw over 130 yards or show up before the 4th quarter, after his defense kept him in it. I was even going to go into the Tebow thread and give him props for playing a really good second half last week, but what's the point, when that admission that he's shown flashes means I somehow have to eat crow or whatever... I don't. He hasn't arrived yet, and you won't get me to admit anything until he can show up for 4 quarters without looking awful most of the time. That's not a double-standard, it's truth.

[Croe]

Maybe that's because he isn't flat out making up crap that there's some sort of double-standard that Sanchez isn't subject to like Tebow is... When I bumped a Stafford/Sanchez comparison thread early this year, people who didn't realize it was two-year-old thread asked "Is this a joke?".... As for CN, he hasn't been constantly trolling the issue so I'll simply respectfully disagree that we should "admit that maybe they didn't have the best grasp on all of the elements that the guy brings to the table when he is leading a team.", after he just got done finishing explaining how the perceptions were similar of Sanchez and Flacco in their rookie years, but have since come back down to earth.... When Tebow spends 3 quarters of games playing terrible, then why would I admit that?

 

And yes I suppose I do have an issue. Issues of hearing about nothing but Tebow all the time, when he hasn't even proven that he can consistently throw over 130 yards or show up before the 4th quarter, after his defense kept him in it. I was even going to go into the Tebow thread and give him props for playing a really good second half last week, but what's the point, when that admission that he's shown flashes means I somehow have to eat crow or whatever... I don't. He hasn't arrived yet, and you won't get me to admit anything until he can show up for 4 quarters without looking awful most of the time. That's not a double-standard, it's truth.

 

So you're saying tebow winning doesn't necessarily = winning. But Sancez or Flaco winning does = winning. I got it.

[delusions of grandeur]

So you're saying tebow winning doesn't necessarily = winning. But Sancez or Flaco winning does = winning. I got it.

 

Care to explain where I said that? I've reiterated throughout this thread that I'm not any more sold on Sanchez than Tebow (even before I knew it was a Tebow-related thread).... I even made the point that the perceptions of them have gone negative, so winning in their rookie season did not explain the whole picture since then...

 

Seriously, this is why you can't argue with Tebow supporters. They just hunt for anything they can perceive as a double-standard or bias, even when someone is arguing the exact opposite. Otherwise, I have no idea how you can draw that I'm sticking up for Sanchez. I most certainly am not, nor are most people who don't think he's passed the "eyeball test", as I said earlier...

[WaterMan]

Yeah I don't understand that either. So Tebow threw a 5 yards dump off pass that the guy ran in for 42 yards and everyone is supposed to eat crow and admit Tebow is good?

 

I guess John Fox remembers his days with Jake Delhomme and decided to real him in after the Lions game. After 39 attempts, he barely broke 170 yards passing with an INT and 3 fumbles.

 

He was in Jay Cutler terrority against the Lions. http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com/f1...rage&ntid=8

Edited December 6, 2011 by WaterMan

[caddyman]

 

Care to explain where I said that? I've reiterated throughout this thread that I'm not any more sold on Sanchez than Tebow (even before I knew it was a Tebow-related thread).... I even made the point that the perceptions of them have gone negative, so winning in their rookie season did not explain the whole picture since then...

 

Seriously, this is why you can't argue with Tebow supporters. They just hunt for anything they can perceive as a double-standard or bias, even when someone is arguing the exact opposite. Otherwise, I have no idea how you can draw that I'm sticking up for Sanchez. I most certainly am not, nor are most people who don't think he's passed the "eyeball test", as I said earlier...

These guys are amazing. Stop killing yourself. Tebow has still plenty to prove. There have been a lot of QBS that had a nice run. I hope he continues his run so we can see how he does in the playoffs. I think my issue is the same as yours. It is just too early to tell for guys like Tebow and even the newly annointed one Andy Dalton. there are tons of examples where a QB has a nice run and then gets exposed. Now don't confuse my Tebow comments with any support for Sanchez. He flat out blows. Even Flacco is overrated. the last two are average at best.

[coordi88]

obviously there is a double standard, because the standards are different.

 

i dont see how this is much of a discussion. its not "perception", it is reality. although perception is reality, (that is another discussion all together...) there is a general acceptance of what is reality. and the reality is that tebow was a "what the hell, why not" play off the bench that has turned into a grand slam twice over. sanchez has the expectations of a franchise on his shoulders, and while i admit i didnt realize he had played so well in the playoffs the last two years, it is clear he hasnt been the QB people expected.

 

and everyone knocks tebows passing so hard, but he has a higher passer rating in the NFL than sanchez does.

 

anyways, it is all the medias fault. a lot of things with the media is a problem, but similar to perception, i will leave that for another discussion

[bushwacked]

But seriously, will you and Billy please stop acting like Tebow's some sort of victim.

 

[delusions of grandeur]

and everyone knocks tebows passing so hard, but he has a higher passer rating in the NFL than sanchez does.

First, it doesn't really help your case to say that he has a better rating than a QB that most everyone agrees is not very good.

 

Second, there is a reason why baseball player's averages can be greatly inflated until a certain point in the season, when anything above .300 is good. It's easy to not throw a lot of picks when you don't throw a lot. It's also pretty easy to improve your completion % when you average just under 20 throws a game for only half a season (which he's still only at 47% BTW). I will give him credit, however, that he has been very good with ball security other than the Detroit game. But what's going to happen when he faces New England and is forced to put it up in the air, because they're down too many scores with not enough time for clock-eating running drives? We'll see soon, and even respectable performance will go a long way in my rethinking my opinion of where he's at as a passer (as well as how good the Denver D actually is).

 

But you have to admit that for much of games, the guy is killing way more drives than he's succeeding at, and that's why I feel that yes, there is a double-standard, that most people would not tolerate that kind of QB play from anyone else. That's not to say he doesn't deserve the chance to improve, he certainly has earned it with the way they've been finishing games when he turns it on in the second half, but the way people act is if he's just gotten over all of his big shortcomings must either only be watching the 4th quarter or only seeing what they want to see.

 

So how about this, as a compromise I think most Tebow detractors will now say that he's certainly earned his shot to prove himself.... But he's still got work to do to prove the doubters completely wrong.

[Ice717]

I am reminded of another young player that had this kind of effect on a team a couple of years ago. Team was well out of the playoff picture written off, in comes the rookie that had mechanical flaws but was a winner. Missed the playoffs by a game I believe, I think he went 7-1 to end the season.

 

Guys name was Vince Young. So bearing a mental breakdown and a Wonderlich test above a 6 I think Tebow will be great in this league.

[WaterMan]

 

 

 

 

 

[Azazello1313]

And yes I suppose I do have an issue. Issues of hearing about nothing but Tebow all the time, when he hasn't even proven that he can consistently throw over 130 yards or show up before the 4th quarter, after his defense kept him in it. I was even going to go into the Tebow thread and give him props for playing a really good second half last week, but what's the point, when that admission that he's shown flashes means I somehow have to eat crow or whatever

 

what were you saying about victimhood?

[delusions of grandeur]

what were you saying about victimhood?

That I'm tired of hearing about him, which was an aside that has nothing to do with the guy's prospects as an NFL QB or people's opinions about him...

 

You know what, I'm not even going to take that stinky bait and devolve this into another 35 page pissing match. If you feel like that's a victory, then have at it, but I said my piece about Tebow and Sanchez and it's clear you have nothing to add or dispute about Tebow himself rather than something nitpicky I said, so I'll exit the thread now...

[Azazello1313]

I said my piece about Tebow and Sanchez and it's clear you have nothing to add or dispute about Tebow himself

 

I added what I thought were some reasonable, measured comments in response to the initial question, to which you basically launched a broadside ad hominem. so please take your whining about "substance" and stinky bait somewhere else.

[jetsfan]

How is it that every Tebow thread devolves into a pissing match? Can't we have a pissing match about someone else?

I'll start.

That Sanchez is dreamy. Did you see the way he gobbled down that wiener?

There is no way Flacco, or any other QB, could inhale meat like that.

[Azazello1313]

How is it that every Tebow thread devolves into a pissing match? Can't we have a pissing match about someone else?

I'll start.

That Sanchez is dreamy. Did you see the way he gobbled down that wiener?

There is no way Flacco, or any other QB, could inhale meat like that.

 

SOB, I had that monk drinking as my own avatar for some time and now I can't even remember what beer it's from

 

edit: nevermind, franziskaner

Edited December 6, 2011 by Azazello1313

[jetsfan]

SOB, I had that monk drinking as my own avatar for some time and now I can't even remember what beer it's from

 

Franziskaner

 

I have an animated gif, but it does not seem to be working

[delusions of grandeur]

I added what I thought were some reasonable, measured comments in response to the initial question, to which you basically launched a broadside ad hominem. so please take your whining about "substance" and stinky bait somewhere else.

Read back on what I said. The vast majority of that post is disputing your assertions that there's a double standard for Tebow that Sanchez doesn't face, which is flat-out untrue. Very little of that was an adhominum attack about you or Billy, and more related to what you both keep saying.... You still haven't shown me anyone who thinks Sanchez is franchise QB material, while you can probably find 100 articles that popped up in the last day about how Tebow could be. That's why I called BS on your accusation of some imaginary double-standard that doesn't exist for people who know anything about football.

 

So don't sit here and act like I just went off the wall unprovoked and am whining, when you spout out that double-standard/bias crap.

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

Then why does Sanchez get so much sh1t? EDIT: Flacco for that matter too.

 

Heard on Mike and Mike today (but found on twitter too) that he is one of just 5 QBs with 30+ wins in 1st 3 yrs(including playoffs)

 

Mark Sanchez joins Dan Marino, Joe Flacco, Ben Roethlisberger &Matt Ryan as only QBs in SB era to have 30+ wins in 1st 3 yrs as starter #nyj

 

So is it fair to say that it isn't always about winning,and that expectations have something to do with it too?

Or is it because Sanchez plays on a team with a top D, and therefore he doesn't get nor deserve the credit that a guy like Tebow is getting?

 

Or is there something else?

 

I believe Brady had 40 wins in his first 3 years as starter

[detlef]

I believe Brady had 40 wins in his first 3 years as starter

I think the tweet is a typo. I think it's the only guys to have 30+ wins in their first three years in the NFL. Everyone on that list started right away. Brady didn't.

[keggerz]

I think the tweet is a typo. I think it's the only guys to have 30+ wins in their first three years in the NFL. Everyone on that list started right away. Brady didn't.

correct, and I just cut and pasted the tweet, should have read it closer.

[caddyman]

I am reminded of another young player that had this kind of effect on a team a couple of years ago. Team was well out of the playoff picture written off, in comes the rookie that had mechanical flaws but was a winner. Missed the playoffs by a game I believe, I think he went 7-1 to end the season.

 

Guys name was Vince Young. So bearing a mental breakdown and a Wonderlich test above a 6 I think Tebow will be great in this league.

Um no...Vince Young had many of the flaws Tebow has. His supporters did the same crap. Oh he is a winner. That is all you heard. Usually that stuff catches up to you. There are not very many shiatty qbs that were just winners over a long period of time. One season, maybe. But for the long haul...hard to find them. Most of these types of running qbs have the same type of argument involving them. Their detractors say they can't pass and that it will catch up to them. Their supporters say they are winners and they will continue to grow. Guys like Vick, Sanchez, Young...they have not won squat. So until one of these flawed and argued about qbs wins the big game then they are still not anything special. I would wager plenty that TRebow does not win a Super Bowl. Same for Sanchez, Young, and Vick. Not happening.