How did the Jets acquire their 4 1st round picks

[phenom]

So the Colts should have drafted Vanderjagt in the first round?  He's a great kicker.  He helps the team win.

 

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Well let's see

 

2000 Colts won one game by 6 points or less

2001 Colts won zero games by 6 points or less

2002 Colts won 4 games by 6 points or less

2003 Colts won 4 games by 6 points or less

2004 Colts won 2 games by 6 points or less

 

So in the last 5 years the Colts have won 11 games where the difference was 6 points. I don't see where Vanderjagt has been all that critical to them winning games since that's less than 2 games a year.

 

 

Compare them to say New England

 

2000 Pats won 3 games by 6 points or less

2001 Pats won 3 games by 6 points or less

2002 Pats won 3 games by 6 points or less

2003 Pats won 5 games by 6 points or less

2004 Pats won 1 games by 6 points or less

 

So that's 15 wins in the last 5 years of 6 points or less for the Patriots. Which comes out to 3 a year.

 

I would also like to mention the Pats have won 5 playoff games by 3 points or less including 2 Super Bowls. Whereas the Colts haven't won any playoff games of 6 points or less.

 

The Colts offense is usually either very good or very bad. Vanderjagt is rarely the difference in the Colts winning or losing a game. Even though he did miss that FG in the first game of the year vs the Patriots costing the Colts possible homefield advantage............

[CaptainHook]

Wow. That's a lot of stats about nothing. Maybe they weren't in close games 'cause Vandy was hitting all his FG's. Maybe the Raiders won their close games in 2000-03 because they became a pretty dominant offensive team.

 

So a kicker is only a good pick if you happen to play close games? That is ridiculous. An impact offensive player or even a defensive player can help in close games just as much IF NOT MORE than a stinkin' kicker.

Edited February 21, 2005 by CaptainHook

[CaptainHook]

Well let's see

 

2000 Colts won one game by 6 points or less

2001 Colts won zero games by 6 points or less

2002 Colts won 4 games by 6 points or less

2003 Colts won 4 games by 6 points or less

2004 Colts won 2 games by 6 points or less

 

So in the last 5 years the Colts have won 11 games where the difference was 6 points.  I don't see where Vanderjagt has been all that critical to them winning games since that's less than 2 games a year.

 

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Uh, not exactly. You forgot about the games where the difference was 6 or less, but the Colts LOST:

 

2000 Colts LOST 4 games by 6 points or less

2001 Colts LOST 4 games by 6 points or less

2002 Colts LOST 1 game by 6 points or less

2003 Colts LOST 3 games by 6 points or less

2004 Colts LOST 2 games by 6 points or less

 

A lot of good a great kicker did for them then. . .

Using the "close game" argument can be very misleading. Sometimes a kicker has absolutely nothing to do with that. Sometimes they do. Sometimes it matters a little. My whole point was that there was much more value at pick 1.17 in the 2000 draft than Sebastian Janikowski.

Edited February 21, 2005 by CaptainHook

[CaptainHook]

The Colts offense is usually either very good or very bad.  Vanderjagt is rarely the difference in the Colts winning or losing a game.  Even though he did miss that FG in the first game of the year vs the Patriots costing the Colts possible homefield advantage

 

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Or the 1999 27 yarder to beat the Jets in NY.

Or the 1999 53 yarder to pretty much clinch the AFC East title in Miami.

Or the 1999 21 yarder to clinch a bye in Cleveland in the season finale.

Or the 2000 45 yarder to beat the Bills.

Or the 2000 playoff game in Miami where he missed in OT.

Or the 2002 38 yarder to beat the Ravens.

Or the 2002 54 yarder in the snow to put the Colts in OT in Denver.

Or the 51 yarder to win that same game in OT.

Or the 2003 45 yarder to win the opener in Cleveland.

Or the 2003 29 yarder to cap the wild MNF comeback in Tampa.

Or the 2003 43 yarder to win the AFC South in Houston in the season finale.

Or the 2004 35 yarder to beat the Vikes on MNF.

Or the 2004 30 yarder in OT to beat the Chargers.

 

Not to mention all the games he's put away for the Colts by extending the lead. I'd say Vandy's worth more than Janikowski. . .

Edited February 21, 2005 by CaptainHook

[phenom]

Wow.  That's a lot of stats about nothing.  Maybe they weren't in close games 'cause Vandy was hitting all his FG's.  Maybe the Raiders won their close games in 2000-03 because they became a pretty dominant offensive team. 

 

So a kicker is only a good pick if you happen to play close games?  That is ridiculous.  An impact offensive player or even a defensive player can help in close games just as much IF NOT MORE than a stinkin' kicker.

 

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I was pointing out that Vanderjagt while being an excellent kicker is not the factor on the Colts that a Vinatieri or Janikowski is. The Colts are an offensive powerhouse. But come up short defensively so they don't really gameplan on winning close games. The Raiders while not being a great defense were better than the Colts; they were ranked in the top 10 in points allowed (2000 ranked 9th and 2002 ranked 6th) The Colts were ranked 7th in points allowed in 2002 but I think that may have been misleading because they played the Texans twice along with the Cowboys. But other than that one year the Colts haven't been ranked higher than 15th in points allowed since 1995.

 

 

Perhaps that's why the Colts feel they can win with offense. They don't think they will play that many close games and they can have anybody kicking FG's. That's how their team is setup. Dome, turf, lot's of offensive players, patchwork defense. It's a very alluring style of play but I don't think ultimately it will be successful as the Raiders found out against the Buc's.........

[Rovers]

To me the only difference between a 1st round pick and any other pick is the money you have to pay for them.  Other than that the players determine how good they are going to be and if they were worth even drafting at all.  It doesn't matter what position you play; all that matters is if you can help the team win.  That's whats worthy of being first round good............

 

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Phenom, with that logic, the Raiders should trade away all thier first rounders for seconds and save cap space. I know you don't mean that, at least I hope you don't..... if that is how you feel, then teams dont have to go to the combine, dont have to.... well, just throw darts at the draft board. You might want to make a minor correction on how that post actually reads....

[CaptainHook]

Whereas the Colts haven't won any playoff games of 6 points or less.

 

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Since 1982, the Raiders are 0-5 in play-off games decided by 6 points or less.

[CaptainHook]

I was pointing out that Vanderjagt while being an excellent kicker is not the factor on the Colts that a Vinatieri or Janikowski is.

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Or the 1999 27 yarder to beat the Jets in NY.

Or the 1999 53 yarder to pretty much clinch the AFC East title in Miami.

Or the 1999 21 yarder to clinch a bye in Cleveland in the season finale.

Or the 2000 45 yarder to beat the Bills.

Or the 2000 playoff game in Miami where he missed in OT.

Or the 2002 38 yarder to beat the Ravens.

Or the 2002 54 yarder in the snow to put the Colts in OT in Denver.

Or the 51 yarder to win that same game in OT.

Or the 2003 45 yarder to win the opener in Cleveland.

Or the 2003 29 yarder to cap the wild MNF comeback in Tampa.

Or the 2003 43 yarder to win the AFC South in Houston in the season finale.

Or the 2004 35 yarder to beat the Vikes on MNF.

Or the 2004 30 yarder in OT to beat the Chargers.

 

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Am I missing a big-time kick that Janikoski has made that makes him more of a "factor" than Vandy? Seabass ain't even in Mike's league. And yet I'd be P ISSED if the Colts had used a first rounder to get him. . .

 

As a matter of fact, there are probably 10 kickers I'd take before Janikowski, and none of them were first or second round picks.

Edited February 21, 2005 by CaptainHook

[phenom]

   

 

Or the 1999 27 yarder to beat the Jets in NY.

Or the 1999 53 yarder to pretty much clinch the AFC East title in Miami.

Or the 1999 21 yarder to clinch a bye in Cleveland in the season finale.

Or the 2000 45 yarder to beat the Bills.

Or the 2000 playoff game in Miami where he missed in OT.

Or the 2002 38 yarder to beat the Ravens.

Or the 2002 54 yarder in the snow to put the Colts in OT in Denver.

Or the 51 yarder to win that same game in OT.

Or the 2003 45 yarder to win the opener in Cleveland.

Or the 2003 29 yarder to cap the wild MNF comeback in Tampa.

Or the 2003 43 yarder to win the AFC South in Houston in the season finale.

Or the 2004 35 yarder to beat the Vikes on MNF.

Or the 2004 30 yarder in OT to beat the Chargers.

 

Not to mention all the games he's put away for the Colts by extending the lead.  I'd say Vandy's worth more than Janikowski. . .

 

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If you are comparing the two there is more to it than just stats. Janikowski has been a leader in touchbacks which like I said is key to winning games in the NFL even if you don't agree. His value to the Raiders (not a head to head battle that's not question this ain't fantasy football) is much greater than Vanderjagt's to Indy.

 

Why don't we ask this question: which kicker needs to have a better year for his team to be successful? Vanderjagt or Janikowski.

 

That's an easy one..........

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

If you are comparing the two there is more to it than just stats.  Janikowski has been a leader in touchbacks which like I said is key to winning games in the NFL even if you don't agree.  His value to the Raiders (not a head to head battle that's not question this ain't fantasy football) is much greater than Vanderjagt's to Indy. 

 

Why don't we ask this question:  which kicker needs to have a better year for his team to be successful?  Vanderjagt or Janikowski.

 

That's an easy one..........

 

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Phenom, denying all odds... I agree with you more and more with every post you type.

 

The Radiers made out pretty good, their Offense was pretty much the same in 99 as it was in 2000. Special Teams changed, and instead of losing 8 tight ones they won them. They then went on a playoff tear the next few years and made a SuperBowl.

 

 

The way to sum it all up with CptHook, according to his theory, is wasn't every team in the NFLs draft terrible as no one except the Pats drafted Tom Brady in the 1st rd? He has won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years. Doesn't THAT make the Colts picka bad one as well? Or... are you just bitter cuz maybe if the Colts took SJ, they would have made the SuperBowl one year?

 

[CaptainHook]

The way to sum it all up with CptHook, according to his theory, is wasn't every team in the NFLs draft terrible as no one except the Pats drafted Tom Brady in the 1st rd? He has won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years. Doesn't THAT make the Colts picka  bad one as well? Or... are you just bitter cuz maybe if the Colts took SJ, they would have made the SuperBowl one year?

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I think I've said SEVERAL times that the Colts did not make a good choice that year. But at least they didn't take a kicker! It cracks me up that you think Janikowski makes that much of a difference, to the point that the Colts might have made the Super Bowl with him. Delusional!

The fact that every team passed on Tom Brady several times, does show that sometimes you just get lucky!

Edited February 21, 2005 by CaptainHook

[CaptainHook]

If you are comparing the two there is more to it than just stats.  Janikowski has been a leader in touchbacks which like I said is key to winning games in the NFL even if you don't agree.

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Janikowski had 7 touchbacks in 2003. He had 12 touchbacks in 2004. Whoop dee doo. The Colts had one or two touchbacks all year. They won 12 games. The Raiders won 5. Touchbacks must not be all that "key" to winning games.

 

By the way, Vinatieri was an undrafted free agent as well. . .

Edited February 21, 2005 by CaptainHook

[phenom]

Phenom, with that logic, the Raiders should trade away all thier first rounders for seconds and save cap space. I know you don't mean that, at least I hope you don't..... if that is how you feel, then teams dont have to go to the combine, dont have to.... well, just throw darts at the draft board. You might want to make a minor correction on how that post actually reads....

 

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No what I meant by there is no difference between a 1st round pick and 7th round pick is what that player can do for the team.

 

Just because a player is a first round pick doesn't automatically mean that player is going to turn out to be some savior. Just as if you are a 5th round pick doesn't mean he is probably going to get cut or just be assigned to the practice squad. That guy could turn out to be the foundation of your team and your first rounder might be an albatross.

 

Teams pay a lot of money to first round picks based on perceived potential. However a 3rd or 4th round player can end up being the better pick after all.

 

I don't know why but I think if we went back into history you will find just as many good players who weren't first round picks. Perhaps they were hungrier or felt slighted but that's how it appears.

 

Vatican has already pointed it out but that year there have been quite a few big busts from the 2000 draft:

 

Thomas Jones Arizona

 

Travis Taylor Baltimore

 

Ron Dayne NY Giants

 

Deltha O'Neal Denver

 

Stockar McDougle Detroit

 

Sylvester Morris Kansas City

 

RJ Soward Jacksonville

 

Trung Canidate St Louis

 

What makes any of these picks any better than Janikowski? I'm just amazed that you are that against the pick just because it was a kicker. Half of these other guys aren't even with their team anymore. I don't even know if Sylvester Morris is still in the NFL (he's not he only played 1 year!). What are Stockar McDougle and RJ Soward doing now? And Janikowski is a terrible pick? He's still playing and doing well, you say you could find 10 better kickers well I say show me. He was 4th overall in FG % last year and tied for 5th in 2003.

 

He was also tied for 5th with 12 touchbacks. Vanderjagt? He had none and the Colts had to bring in someone to kickoff for him. Plus what does your QB and coach think of him........

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

I think I've said SEVERAL times that the Colts did not make a good choice that year.  But at least they didn't take a kicker!  It cracks me up that you think Janikowski makes that  much of a difference, to the point that the Colts might have made the Super Bowl with him.    Delusional!

The fact that every team passed on Tom Brady several times, does show that sometimes you just get lucky!

 

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Wow-- are you EVER able to read "sarcasm" into anything without an emoticon next to it?

 

The Colts draft was horrible and laughable, they passed on Tom Brady and now they're stuck with Manning. If they had Brady, they probably woudl have won a few SBs the last few years, or at least made one.

 

Should I add the emoticon for you to let you know that was sarcasm? I better go ahead and do it based upon your track record so far:

 

Now Oakland made a pick that helped them win games and the AFC. Just cuz the picks the Colts have made the last few years still hasn't amounted to an AFC Championship, please don't try to vent all your Patriot frustration on the Raiders.

 

I will insert th eemoticon here to help you along:

 

[CaptainHook]

Vatican has already pointed it out but that year there have been quite a few big busts from the 2000 draft:

 

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That was my list.

 

I don't even know if Sylvester Morris is still in the NFL (he's not he only played 1 year!).

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Morris was pretty good his rookie year, but he blew out both his knees in consecutive years.

 

He's still playing and doing well, you say you could find 10 better kickers well I say show me.

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I'd take, in no particular order, Vinatieri, Vanderjagt, John Carney, Jason Elam, Jason Hanson, John Kasay, Ryan Longwell, Olindo Mare, Matt Stover, Jeff Wilkins all before blowing a first round pick on Janikowski.

[CaptainHook]

Now Oakland made a pick that helped them win games and the AFC. Just cuz the picks the Colts have made the last few years still hasn't amounted to an AFC Championship, please don't try to vent all your Patriot frustration on the Raiders.

 

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I see you've gone from defending the terrible choice to just dumping on the Colts for not being able to beat the Pats. I would too if I had to justify taking a kicker in the first round.

 

How did the Raiders do against the Pats? Maybe if they'd had a running game in the snow game :cough: Alexander :cough: they might have won.

 

How did the AFC Champs fair against the Buccs? Once again, maybe a running game could have taken the pressure off the passing game. Did Gannon throw 5 or 6 picks in the SB? I can't remember.

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

That was my list.

 

 

He's referring to my list from last page I believe:

 

<<So, you're saying the Colts should have taken Pennington instead of Morris? I'm sure the Browns are really satisfied that Courtney Brown is panning out for them on his yearly IR placement. And Ron Dayne was gangbusters for the Giants. Plexiglass is most likely goign to retire a Steeler, right? And the Raiders should have taken Trung Canidate? I'll pass, I would rather have our 3 AFC West Championships and Super Bowl appearance and keep my roofie kicking, bar fighting, barely legal alien kicker.>>

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

I see you've gone from defending the terrible choice to just dumping on the Colts for not being able to beat the Pats.  I would too if I had to justify taking a kicker in the first round.

 

How did the Raiders do against the Pats?  Maybe if they'd had a running game in the snow game :cough: Alexander :cough:  they might have won.

 

How did the AFC Champs fair against the Buccs?  Once again, maybe a running game could have taken the pressure off the passing game.  Did Gannon throw 5 or 6 picks in the SB?  I can't remember.

 

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Yeah they got crushed in the Super Bowl, and were on the losing end of the snowjob... but when was the last Super Bowl appearance by the Colts? Yeah... and how have they performed in the playoffs against the Patriots? Right... and how did they do againt the Pats in the regular season, you know, when teh kicker probably could have secured them home field advantage in the playoffs?

 

Thats a super zinger there.

 

Let me insert the emoticon for you again:

[CaptainHook]

He's referring to my list from last page I believe:

 

<<So, you're saying the Colts should have taken Pennington instead of Morris? I'm sure the Browns are really satisfied that Courtney Brown is panning out for them on his yearly IR placement. And Ron Dayne was gangbusters for the Giants. Plexiglass is most likely goign to retire a Steeler, right? And the Raiders should have taken Trung Canidate? I'll pass, I would rather have our 3 AFC West Championships and Super Bowl appearance and keep my roofie kicking, bar fighting, barely legal alien kicker.>>

 

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Geez are you stupid? How could the Colts have taken Pennington? The Colts had the 28th pick. Pennington was long gone. We've been over that already. Reading comprehension. Try it.

[CaptainHook]

Yeah they got crushed in the Super Bowl, and were on the losing end of the snowjob... but when was the last Super Bowl appearance by the Colts? Yeah...  and how have they performed in the playoffs against the Patriots? Right... and how did they do againt the Pats in the regular season, you know, when teh kicker probably could have secured them home field advantage in the playoffs?

 

Thats a super zinger there.

 

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How'd the Raiders do against the Pats?

 

Vandy's missed kick only would have put the game in OT, it hardly would have "secured home field advantage."

 

Why can I admit that their would have been better picks for the Colts than Rob Morris, but you guys act like Janikowski was a great pick, even though they could have gotten similiar production from a handful of other free agent kickers AND selected a impact player with that pick???

Edited February 21, 2005 by CaptainHook

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

Geez are you stupid?  How could the Colts have taken Pennington?  The Colts had the 28th pick.  Pennington was long gone.  We've been over that already.  Reading comprehension.  Try it.

 

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How did the Giants end up with Manning? Right, it's called TRADING.

 

Anyway, we've already discussed this: The Colts blew their draft and a SuperBowl chance when they passed on Tom Brady 5 times.

 

Cpt Hook will never be mistaken for any person with any ounce of wit...

 

No emoticon needed there.

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

How'd the Raiders do against the Pats?  Vandy's missed kick only would have put the game in OT, it hardly would have "secured home field advantage."

 

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So you admit Vandy blew it? Maybe if they drafted SJ instead of Morris, he would still be their kicker today and they would have won that game and a SB by now.

[CaptainHook]

So you admit Vandy blew it? Maybe if they drafted SJ instead of Morris, he would still be their kicker today and they would have won that game and a SB by now.

 

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It'd be tough to do, since the Raiders TOOK A KICKER WITH THE SEVENTEENTH PICK and the Colts had the 28th pick. Dang, we just missed out on a slightly above average kicker.

 

I'll stick with the combination of Morris and Vandy, thanks.

 

Keep telling yourselves it was a great pick. I'm sure Al Davis does every night before bed. . .

Edited February 21, 2005 by CaptainHook

[The Vatican Hitsquad]

It'd be tough to do, since the Raiders TOOK A KICKER WITH THE SEVENTEENTH PICK and the Colts had the 28th pick.  Dang, we just missed out on a slightly above average kicker. 

 

I'll stick with the combination of Morris and Vandy, thanks.

 

Keep telling yourselves it was a great pick.  I'm sure Al Davis does every night before bed. . .

 

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Will do, afterall, he did get the team to 3 straight AFC West titles and 2 AFC CHampionship games, plus a SuperBowl appearance.

 

Maybe if you guys drafted Tom Brady and dumped Manning.. .or you know, MOVED UP in the draft (you HAVE heard of that before, right?) you could have grabbed a gem like Janikowski, a kicker who has kicked in a Super Bowl!!!

 

One day, you'll get those Raider pajama's that you kep askin uncle Al to send ya... one day..

[CaptainHook]

Maybe if you guys drafted Tom Brady and dumped Manning.. .or you know, MOVED UP in the draft (you HAVE heard of that before, right?) you could have grabbed a gem like Janikowski, a kicker who has kicked in a Super Bowl!!!

 

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Move up in the first round to take a kicker? Sounds like something only the stupid Raiders would do!

 

Wow. Janikowski has kicked in a Super Bowl. How'd that turn out? 3 extra points. Whoo Hooo! I bet they wished they'd drafted someone to help out the offense or defense in the first round in 2000, instead of a kicker, as they were getting their heads handed to them by the Buccaneers.

Edited February 21, 2005 by CaptainHook