Divisions in FF

[Kid Cid]

This is the #1 arguement I've seen against the absense of divisions. I can't really understand it, but it's brought to my attention whenever the subject arises.

Do you really know who is in your division from year to year? Many leagues reformat their divisions based on the draft spot they pick from each season. The bigger point against this arguement, is the turnover from season to season in FF leagues. I play in many BOTH Leagues, and we have 2-4 new owners each season in the majority of them. The Empire being the exception, due to the entry fee that we enjoy playing for.

In my local we've had a core of 8 owners (12 team keeper, started as a 16 team keeper in '97) since the beginning. We currently have 3 divisions of 4 teams. There's a guy in my division who had never won against me since the beginning. He beat me like a rented mule twice this year. (f'n TJ Housh ) You think that he hasn't remembered our prior record and reminded me about this on a weekly basis?

 

BTW, I don't see the point of having divisions if you're just going to rearrange them every year. That's a waste of effort if you ask me.

 

As far as the three BOTH leagues I'm in, only Empire doesn't have divisions. I think we've only lost 1 or 2 people in the CORE since it's inception although we've swapped out about half of Dash-4. Although even this league has been pretty stable for the last couple of years. My local is the most volatile league for turnover but there's always a core group that carries forward the tradition year after year.

[coachharry]

We have 2 conferences, with 3 divisions each. There is a 12 team conference in two different cities, and each conference holds its own draft. So, you can play against your own players in the occasional cross-conference game and in the Championship game.

 

Six teams make into the playoffs. 3 division winners, and 3 wild cards, 2 by total points and one by best record. This has alway had the best six teams advancing. The two division winners with the best record get the first round bye.

 

Divisions are re-seeded each year by draft pick, 1-4, 5-8, 9-12

[theeohiostate]

Posted this before but didn't get a good response to it, this topic seems more fitting for it though. I offer it, for suggestions on how to tweak it or is it not even a good starting point. Thinking it through to adopt in a local next year.

 

It protects against teams "blowing up" 2 or 3 weeks and making the playoffs because their record would likely be 3 and 10 if they scored that few points the other weeks. You can have divisions if you chose but the win/loss records established as follows.

 

Every week the 5 teams that score the most get a "W" and the 5 that score the least get a "L". The win/loss record at the end sets the playoffs. We haven't decided if that will go into the playoffs or if the playoffs will go to head-to-head format.

 

This came up because the team in last place in one of the current divisions has scored the most points(by far) but has played against the team winning the "highpojint of the week" pool 6 out of 11 weeks now. The team in first in that division has had an average of 25 pts/week less scored against them.

 

I'm a bit of the old-school head-2-head with divisions player myself but do like the idea of the best teams making the playoffs and not the teams who had the h2h schedule work in their favor.

 

Fishing for someone to put other eyes to it and see the potential problems. TIA

 

 

This formula would completely discount H2H, so it that's what your aiming to do, then it's okay. However, using the same ideas, you could achieve the same goal, while keeping a H2H format, by using an all play system .

[Kid Cid]

We have 2 conferences, with 3 divisions each. There is a 12 team conference in two different cities, and each conference holds its own draft. So, you can play against your own players in the occasional cross-conference game and in the Championship game.

 

Six teams make into the playoffs. 3 division winners, and 3 wild cards, 2 by total points and one by best record. This has alway had the best six teams advancing. The two division winners with the best record get the first round bye.

 

Divisions are re-seeded each year by draft pick, 1-4, 5-8, 9-12

So, two questions.

 

1) Why do you re-seed?

2) How do you FEEL about the Divisions?

[Kid Cid]

This formula would completely discount H2H, so it that's what your aiming to do, then it's okay. However, using the same ideas, you could achieve the same goal, while keeping a H2H format, by using an all play system .

Rotisserie FF is kinda boring if you ask me.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Kid Cid

[Grits and Shins]

Rotisserie FF is kinda boring if you ask me.

 

I agree.

 

I have been playing fantasy football 15 years now. I likely would have quit 13 or 14 years ago in a total points or rotisserie system.

 

To me fantasy football is about make the right picks each week to BEAT the current week's opponent into submission. If it happens to be a 61 to 60.5 win ... well that doesn't reall matter ... because in the end I BEAT his ASS and put a W in my win column.

[theeohiostate]

Rotisserie FF is kinda boring if you ask me.

 

 

Agreed. H2H is the only way to go, but there is a real problem with division winners advancing over better teams each season, you must admit. I am not anti-division..............I'm anti-free ride for a division winner. It's not the divsiions that give the system it's problem, it's allowing ALL the divsion winners a free pass to the playoffs, regardless of record or points and letting better teams sit on the sidelines.

 

This problem really doesn't occur in a 2 divisional system, it occurs when you have 3 and 4 divisions, and your giving out a pass to 4 teams and only allowing 2 more in the playoffs. I think if you have 3 or 4 divisions, why not have the top 2 divsion winners get the auto bids and #1 and #2 seeds, then the rest is up for grabs, thereby not allowing these .500 and sub .500 divsional winners a free pass based on playing in a poor divsion ?

[Fatman]

I enjoy the division rivalry associated with my 16 team IDP league. There has been some turnover, but the teams are very competitive. It's actually one of my favorite parts of the league.

[Kid Cid]

Agreed. H2H is the only way to go, but there is a real problem with division winners advancing over better teams each season, you must admit. I am not anti-division..............I'm anti-free ride for a division winner. It's not the divsiions that give the system it's problem, it's allowing ALL the divsion winners a free pass to the playoffs, regardless of record or points and letting better teams sit on the sidelines.

 

This problem really doesn't occur in a 2 divisional system, it occurs when you have 3 and 4 divisions, and your giving out a pass to 4 teams and only allowing 2 more in the playoffs. I think if you have 3 or 4 divisions, why not have the top 2 divsion winners get the auto bids and #1 and #2 seeds, then the rest is up for grabs, thereby not allowing these .500 and sub .500 divsional winners a free pass based on playing in a poor divsion ?

The way we addressed it in my local (3 divisions, 4 teams each) is that each of the division winners gets into the playoffs (this year a team with a losing record is a div winner, go figure). Then the next two spots are awarded to the next top two records. Finally the last spot awarded is to the team remaining with the most points scored on the season. So yeah, we acknowledge that there is an issue but think that doing away with divisions also cheapens the experience.

[Grits and Shins]

Agreed. H2H is the only way to go, but there is a real problem with division winners advancing over better teams each season, you must admit. I am not anti-division..............I'm anti-free ride for a division winner. It's not the divsiions that give the system it's problem, it's allowing ALL the divsion winners a free pass to the playoffs, regardless of record or points and letting better teams sit on the sidelines.

 

This problem really doesn't occur in a 2 divisional system, it occurs when you have 3 and 4 divisions, and your giving out a pass to 4 teams and only allowing 2 more in the playoffs. I think if you have 3 or 4 divisions, why not have the top 2 divsion winners get the auto bids and #1 and #2 seeds, then the rest is up for grabs, thereby not allowing these .500 and sub .500 divsional winners a free pass based on playing in a poor divsion ?

 

In my local we have 4 divisions of 3 teams. Division winners get in plus 2 wild cards. And has you have suggested sometimes this leads to a division winner getting in that has a record worse than a team that did not make the playoffs. I believe we have even had a division winner with a losing record.

 

There are several reason we use this format. One it allows all teams to play each other once a season and division rivals to play each other twice without resorting to a double header week. Two it allows teams that are struggling to potentially still have a shot to make the playoffs if they can win their division.

 

I tried to get this changed last year but it was a no go. I WAS able, however, to split the payouts from the seedings. Prior to last year we had larger payouts for division winners and smaller payouts for wildcards. We changed it so that payouts are a percentage based on where you finish the year. So winning your division gets you no extra money ... you have to earn it.

[theeohiostate]

There are several reason we use this format. One it allows all teams to play each other once a season and division rivals to play each other twice without resorting to a double header week. Two it allows teams that are struggling to potentially still have a shot to make the playoffs if they can win their division.

 

 

 

I'm aware of the reasons, but would like to know if this is fair ? We are no better then the BCS with a system that rewards a team based on this formula.

 

Does a team at 8-6 deserve to have it's spot taken in the playoffs to the 4th divsion winner who is 6-7 , for no other reason, then his team sucked and played in a chity enough division to squeak out a birth with that kind of record.............I say no, and would like to see it changed.

[Missoula Griz]

My son is playing me this week. He wins and I am out of the playoffs. I win and get some help from ABearWith then I win the division.

 

My son desperately wants to win this week ... and will if Randy Moss does not out score NE by 5 points tonight. He traded for TO 2 weeks ago and that could be the difference in him winning or losing this week.

 

I am just kidding you. I think its great you have your son involved in one of your passions . My son has been in our money league(of course its my $$) for 3 years. He started when he was 8. He knows more about sports then most do. He watches sports center every morning before heading to school. This is the first year he has made the playoffs. He won his division, thus getting a first round bye. I won the other division, getting the other bye.

 

I would love to play him in the championship. Keeping the money in the house would be a nice bonus. He leans on me for advice, but he has drafted his own team all 3 years and sets his own lineup.

[Kid Cid]

I'm aware of the reasons, but would like to know if this is fair ? We are no better then the BCS with a system that rewards a team based on this formula.

 

Does a team at 8-6 deserve to have it's spot taken in the playoffs to the 4th divsion winner who is 6-7 , for no other reason, then his team sucked and played in a chity enough division to squeak out a birth with that kind of record.............I say no, and would like to see it changed.

And I disagree. You all know how it works going into the season and the team with the 6-7 record did what they had to to get the playoff berth.

 

If you want a league where weekly matchups don't matter, only how many points you score, take a look at HEFFA.

[gilthorp]

I like where you guys have decided to go with your league. What is the reasoning however on taking 6 teams based on H2H and only 2 teams based on points ? Couldn't you balance that out and go 4 and 4 ?

 

I do find your current system far better then most , and it's good to see owners wanting to advance the best teams based on the entire league, and not based on a 2 or 3 team divison.

 

We thought that 4 on pts. and 4 on head to head was too extreme. As it turned out, last year, only 1 got in on pts...the 7th seed would have been the 7th seed regardless. This year, it looks like it's going to also only effect the 8th seed...someone with a lucky record gets bumped by a guy that had bum luck.

[Qball86]

This formula would completely discount H2H, so it that's what your aiming to do, then it's okay. However, using the same ideas, you could achieve the same goal, while keeping a H2H format, by using an all play system .

"Listening" to all the points being made I'm slowly drifting away from my idea about the weekly points deciding W/L records. Must have been sitting to close to Travis Henry when we thought it up.

 

But how do you have H2H and an all-play, maybe I don't understand what all-play is? Isn't it one or the other?

 

Agreed. H2H is the only way to go, but there is a real problem with division winners advancing over better teams each season, you must admit. I am not anti-division..............I'm anti-free ride for a division winner. It's not the divsiions that give the system it's problem, it's allowing ALL the divsion winners a free pass to the playoffs, regardless of record or points and letting better teams sit on the sidelines.

 

Then what does the division winner win, or why have them at all? If you win your division in any sport you make the playoffs regardless of how well the teams outside your division finsished. Do they only get in if the rest of their division was too weak to keep up? Balanced divisions will produce division winners with worse W/L records because the competition is stronger, a la the SEC compared to the Big 10. Some would argue the 2 loss teams in the SEC are better than undefeated and 1 loss teams from other conferences since the competition faced in the SEC is tougher.

[jgcoach]

I'm aware of the reasons, but would like to know if this is fair ? We are no better then the BCS with a system that rewards a team based on this formula.

 

Does a team at 8-6 deserve to have it's spot taken in the playoffs to the 4th divsion winner who is 6-7 , for no other reason, then his team sucked and played in a chity enough division to squeak out a birth with that kind of record.............I say no, and would like to see it changed.

 

You keep talking about fairness. What in life is truely fair? Nothing. I like my leagues just the way they are. Now, this isn't saying you can't start a league and set the rules just the way you want them but, saying it should change across the board because maybe you got screwed or, you perceive to have been screwed in some way is wrong. If everyone disliked the way their league was run, I'm sure they all have minds of their own and are adult enough to make changes to it. I'm sorry but, this sounds like sour grapes to me. JMHO

[theeohiostate]

You keep talking about fairness. What in life is truely fair? Nothing. I like my leagues just the way they are. Now, this isn't saying you can't start a league and set the rules just the way you want them but, saying it should change across the board because maybe you got screwed or, you perceive to have been screwed in some way is wrong. If everyone disliked the way their league was run, I'm sure they all have minds of their own and are adult enough to make changes to it. I'm sorry but, this sounds like sour grapes to me. JMHO

 

 

This is not based on sour grapes whatsoever. I've made the playoffs in 12 of 14 leagues and have nothing to be upset about. If anything, I've benefitted from the rules I'd like to see changed. I have been talking about this for several months, I didn't just start the topic today, this is actually a duplicate post about the same idea I laid out some time ago.

 

Using this system may very well have cost me a playoff spot in one of my leagues, but that isn't my focus. I'd like to see a system that rewards the better teams and doesn't reward a poor team based on divisional free pass.

[TDFFFreak]

Divisions seem to exist primarily for the sole purpose of scheduling in redraft leagues.

 

Also, if points is the only way of measuring a team, about half of your league will stop paying attention once they are too far back. There needs to be multiple incentives.

 

This is actually a real good point. While there may be one team in the toilet early on even in divisional leagues, generally speaking, most teams are in it and involved at least until the the last few weeks of the season. Plus, add the weekly high score cash prize and it can be a lot of fun. I've said it before and I'll say it again: 9 out 10 times, the best teams make the playoff. The only thing that really changes is the playoff seeding.

 

(I still say it has worked in your favor in Empire TOS )

Edited December 3, 2007 by TDFFFreak

[theeohiostate]

(I still say it has worked in your favor in Empire TOS )

 

 

 

Agreed. All the more reason to believe my complaint in valid. I'm arguing against a system that afforded me an opportunity in the playoffs in my biggest money league.

 

As I've stated this isn't about any of my leagues, it's about a system that allows for undeserving teams to make the playoffs over better teams

[coachharry]

So, two questions.

 

1) Why do you re-seed?

2) How do you FEEL about the Divisions?

 

 

We re-seed because that's how its always been. Divisions are used to help determine the schedule and playoffs. It seems to work for us OK. We cold probably keep the same divisions year in/ year out, as the league has stayed pretty stable for the last 8 years. I think most prefer the reseed, so they get to play different teams each year.

[xtra]

I realize FF tries to emulate the NFL to a certain degree, but when is it time stray from NFL and "old" FF tradition and side with fairness.

Divisions are getting in the way of having better teams advance to the playoffs in FF. I see this over and over, year after year. I realize FF has the "luck" factor in it with regards to injuries and the pot luck dice roll for draft postion. It's far time we change the old system for the better and eliminate the free ride of these .500 and sub .500 division winners taking a free trip to Playoff FF Land , at the expense of teams with better records and more points.

 

I can cite 3 league this season, where the mere fact of the division winner has caused teams with a better winning percentage to not make the playoffs. Additionally I can site far more leagues, where a .500 Division winner gets a higher seed or even a bye at the expense of a team owner with 2 or 3 more wins on the season. I do not accept the saying "this is FF...........blah .............blah............blah..........."

 

It's about trying to fix a problem that has plaqued this game. It's about making sure the best 6 teams advance.

 

For those of you who scream the sentiments of a "divisional rivaly" , i say "gimmie a break" . I can hardly remember who's in my divisions from year to year anyhow. Then add to the equation the turnonver in ownership that the majority of leagues face each season. This arguement just doesn't hold water.

 

It's time to think about a system that will enable the best teams to advance and face off in the playoffs. Whether it be having one single divsion and the top 6 based on records advance. Whether it's leaving the divsions in tact and setting a rule that takes the top 3 teams based on H2H record and top 3 in points advance. If we can get past these automatic bids it'll go a long way to clean up this problem . If your a good team and won your division, then your going to make the playoffs anyhow, so why fight the change ?

In a system based on points you would have to play all the players on your team including your bench.

 

Its a game and you play the hand youre dealt.I think of fantasy football more as people who cant play in the NFL but still enjoy it getting a chance to compete against other fans in the same sense the NFL teams do,h2h with divisions,playoffs and super bowls.

 

Look at the NFL,its not about who scores the most points overall or strength of schedule, its about winning h2h week in,week out.Just like in the NFL any given Sunday anyone can win and thats why I like the h2h.

Edited December 3, 2007 by xtra

[TDFFFreak]

Agreed. All the more reason to believe my complaint in valid. I'm arguing against a system that afforded me an opportunity in the playoffs in my biggest money league.

 

As I've stated this isn't about any of my leagues, it's about a system that allows for undeserving teams to make the playoffs over better teams

I think it's all part of the fun. I'd be willing to give the 3 division winners an automatic birth, plus the 2 byes to the best of those 3 division winners and one additional team the playoff birth based on record 1st, followed by total points for a tie breaker. Then give 2 more teams a playoff birth due solely to total points, but I wouldn't change the structure that awards the byes. I think that's the part you are rallying against in the divisional format.

 

On a personal nore for TOS: I never say never. If the majority of the league wants it changed, I can go along with it. I don't feel so strongly about it that I would refuse to play in a leage with different rules.

Edited December 4, 2007 by TDFFFreak

[muck]

...I was thinking about the same thing earlier this year...

 

I'm contemplating proposing a tweaking to how the playoffs are put together in one of my leagues ... maybe ... something that involves HTH records, all-play and total points somehow ...

 

Maybe something for my league with 10 teams and two divisions (where two teams from each division goes to the playoffs) that looks like this:

 

Weeks 1-14 = HTH for two divisions ... where six teams advance to the playoffs, as follows:

1) Two division winners advance -- these are the top two seeds.

2) Next two best all-play winners advance who were not division winners -- these are the 3rd and 4th seeds.

3) Next two highest points scored who were not division winners or top all-play winners -- these are the 5th and 6th seeds.

 

Then, playoffs in weeks 15 and 16 as follows:

1) Seeds 1 & 2 get to use their higher of i) the average score in weeks 13-15, ii) the average score in week 14-15, or iii) their score in week 15 to determine whether or not they advance to the league SB.

2) Seeds 3 & 4 get to use their higher of i) the average score in week 14-15, or ii) their score in week 15 to determine whether or not they advance to the league SB.

3) Seeds 5 & 6 get to use their scores only from week 15 to see if they get to advance to the SB.

...consider the benefit of using more weeks' scores when determining who advances a benefit to doing well in HTH and each week via all-play...

 

Then, do something very similar in Week 16, except between only two teams, to see who wins the league SB.

 

HOWEVER ... and somewhat related to this ... make sure that there are all sorts of different ways for folks to get paid ... maybe something like:

1) 50% to the SB winner

2) 20% to the SB runner up

3) 5% to the other four playoff participants

4) 10% to the team that showed the biggest improvement in total points scored vs. the previous season (weeks 1-14 only) -- this is VERY important for teams in dynasty / keeper leagues to encourage teams to work hard to improve their teams

Edited December 3, 2007 by muck

[Itsnottatooma]

There are a million ways this can be done. In this thread it looks like every league is a little different. That's FF for ya.

 

I commish two leagues that have different setups for determining record and playoff settings. Both are 12- team leagues with 3 divs of 4 teams, and we play a 13-week reg season, 6 teams in playoffs with top two seeds having first round bye. Both leagues also award high score of the week each week with a nominal cash prize, to keep teams interested even if they are out of the running. Both leagues are very old - one started in 1990 and we have 4 original owners still and only one team change in the last 8 years. The other one started in 1991 but we only have me and one other original owner, but only a couple of teams have changed in the last 8 years or so.

 

Local 1: H2H only. Teams play every team once and two teams in their div twice. Top seeds are div winners, fourth seed is non-div winner with next best record, 5 and 6 are top scoring teams despite record. We have messed around with how many teams get in with the final see or last two seeds a couple of times. Owners seem to prefer that two teams get in this way rather than one. However sometimes a 5-8 or 6-7 team gets in this way while an 8-5 or 7-6 is out in the cold. That will be what happens this year probably, although last year I think the playoffs would have had same teams in even if we went solely on record, just the seeding woulda been different.

 

Local 2: This is my 'work' league and it's the one I like to experiment with. In this league we currently award wins for H2H and also for score versus the weekly "average" score (so basically you are playing both a H2H matchup and a game vs. Avg each week). It's not necessarily top 6 that get a win versus average. One week this year we had only 4 wins. Another week we had 8 wins. It just depends on whether a couple of teams really go nuts or if they tank and move the average around a bit. It's kinda neat if you score a huge score you can make more people lose. Anyhow we've done this basic thing for 3 years now and no problems. In a way it averages out the "luck" factor becuase while you always have the H2H, (and the H2H is always what you follow on 'game day'), you still can get a W if you lose with the 2nd best score of the week. On the other hand if you win with the 2nd worst score of the week you only go 1-1 on the week.

 

I don't think I'd want to play in a local league that just went on total points only. It would be too boring without H2H component.