Hero or Murderer?

[Hugh 0ne]

Last I checked, looting someone's house was not punishable by death.

 

If you come into my home to loot it or for any other reason of ill intent when I am home I will shoot you and kill you and not go to jail.

[McNasty]

He just went about it in an extreme way.

 

Yeah, I think it's fair to say "killing for stealing" is extreme.

 

Even the most staunch and backwards Islamic countries only chop off a hand. Maybe they really are the religion of peace and love?

[Skippy]

So, basically, what you're implying is that it's cool to kill somebody over some stuff... not even your stuff, just some stuff. Because it seems we've established that, in your opinion, simply breaking the law is not automatically a killing offense. Only if the perps are taking some stuff. Kids shoplifting candy bars has been mentioned, is that sufficient grounds for killing?

Man do I hate to get into a hugh debate over this but I think I am one of the narrow minded people that thinks that people that break into a house to rob anything very much run the risk of being shoot, and I have zero problem with it. I have never broken into anyone’s house and so far as I know not a single person that I know, (other than one drug addict), has either. It's just something that you know you don't do.

 

This is a story from when I was much younger but it is still something very much on my mind.

 

I was in a convenience store near my house where the mother of a girl that I dated in high school worked. She was probably 55 or so at the time and a very kind older lady. In comes a thug that pointed a gun in her face and demanded the money. I was near the back of the store and did not even see the start of this. I came up the isle and see him standing there and starting to get really agitated. He starts screaming and pointing that gun down at her as she is now so scared that she is starting to hide behind the counter. He shouts "I swear to god bit ch, if you don't open that drawer and give me the money, I am going to blow your fr ucking head off". At that point I reach under my coat and pull my 357 from its shoulder holster and think for what seemed to be an hour about what I should do. This guy never ever saw me back there and I had a clear shot at his head. He finally got frustrated and pushed the register off the counter. At that point a car pulled into the lot and he ran out the door.

 

To this day I sort of wish that I would have shoot him. That lady never came back to work there again and that same guy robbed several more convenience stores while he did shoot one of the workers before Pittsburgh police caught the guy. They had camera pictures of this guy and everything and he was able to stay on a convenience store robbery spree for a few weeks.

 

Now my life would have been way different, I am sure, if I shot this guy in the side of his head but man I swear I just don't have the tolerance for it.

 

Unateve - I need to schedule a few sessions.

[montster]

this did remind me that i've been meaning to drop joe horn for weeks.

[dmarc117]

Oh for godsakes. The very fact that we're arguing about what is and isn't appropriate grounds for when we can shoot someone is exactly why this nutjob needs to go to jail. As a society, we've already determined what you can be shot for and more importantly, who's freaking in charge of doing the shooting.

 

Anyone playing the "two less thugs on the streets" card How are you not concerned about "one more idiot with a gun who bothered to call 911, was not in danger, specifically told not to leave his house or shoot these people, and did anyway'?

 

Last I checked, looting someone's house was not punishable by death.

 

 

myself and every other law abiding citizen would never have to worry about this man or his gun because we would never try to steal from him or his friends.

[detlef]

If you come into my home to loot it or for any other reason of ill intent when I am home I will shoot you and kill you and not go to jail.

But you're not killing me for looting your house. You're shooting at me because I am an intruder in your house that may or may not be endangering your family. Big, big freaking difference. If someone is running away from your house with something that they stole and you gun them down, you should go to jail. That is flat out wrong and opens the door for some pretty f'ed up cowboy justice that does not make our society better.

 

This is not me being soft on those who steal. This is me being totally freaked out by the notion that some jerk-off next door with a gun is going to use a gun in a manner that even policemen aren't allowed to do.

 

If you do not advocate the death penalty for theft, then I can't see why you can advocate citizens to enforce that punishment as they see fit.

[wildcat2334]

Man do I hate to get into a hugh debate over this but I think I am one of the narrow minded people that thinks that people that break into a house to rob anything very much run the risk of being shoot, and I have zero problem with it. I have never broken into anyone’s house and so far as I know not a single person that I know, (other than one drug addict), has either. It's just something that you know you don't do.

 

This is a story from when I was much younger but it is still something very much on my mind.

 

I was in a convenience store near my house where the mother of a girl that I dated in high school worked. She was probably 55 or so at the time and a very kind older lady. In comes a thug that pointed a gun in her face and demanded the money. I was near the back of the store and did not even see the start of this. I came up the isle and see him standing there and starting to get really agitated. He starts screaming and pointing that gun down at her as she is now so scared that she is starting to hide behind the counter. He shouts "I swear to god bit ch, if you don't open that drawer and give me the money, I am going to blow your fr ucking head off". At that point I reach under my coat and pull my 357 from its shoulder holster and think for what seemed to be an hour about what I should do. This guy never ever saw me back there and I had a clear shot at his head. He finally got frustrated and pushed the register off the counter. At that point a car pulled into the lot and he ran out the door.

 

To this day I sort of wish that I would have shoot him. That lady never came back to work there again and that same guy robbed several more convenience stores while he did shoot one of the workers before Pittsburgh police caught the guy. They had camera pictures of this guy and everything and he was able to stay on a convenience store robbery spree for a few weeks.

 

Now my life would have been way different, I am sure, if I shot this guy in the side of his head but man I swear I just don't have the tolerance for it.

 

Unateve - I need to schedule a few sessions.

 

 

this is incredible to me...... you carried a .357 in HS? why?

 

I don't know you for chit Skippy- but is sounds like you made the right choice.

 

You probably just as easily could have hit the old lady behind the counter, or you miss, and the kid shoots you, the lady or both of you.

 

This wacko with the shotgun was looking for an excuse to shoot someone. end of story.

 

I saw a stat where Joe average firearm owner is more likely to hurt a loved one or friend than they are intruder or person trying to do them harm.

[Hugh 0ne]

But you're not killing me for looting your house. You're shooting at me because I am an intruder in your house that may or may not be endangering your family. Big, big freaking difference. If someone is running away from your house with something that they stole and you gun them down, you should go to jail. That is flat out wrong and opens the door for some pretty f'ed up cowboy justice that does not make our society better.

 

I agree. I was responding to your comment in its context. I stand by my original statement, which I think you agree with as well. I don't plan on asking you if you're coming in to just steal my belongings or rape my wife and kill my children. I'll shoot first and ask questions later.

[detlef]

myself and every other law abiding citizen would never have to worry about this man or his gun because we would never try to steal from him or his friends.

OK dum bass, where's the freaking line?! That's the whole point! Where's the freaking line?! Which illegal acts are bad enough that you condone dudes like this to shoot people? HS kids taking baseball bats to mailboxes? Reckless driving? Just curious. See, I've been under this rather naive notion that we already had this figured out. Apparently not. Apparently all these laws we've enacted. All the specific punishments that we've decided are just and fair depending on the crime are just suggestions. Ultimately, however, it's what dmarctard's retarded army think is cool and what isn't.

[McNasty]

Man do I hate to get into a hugh debate over this but I think I am one of the narrow minded people that thinks that people that break into a house to rob anything very much run the risk of being shoot, and I have zero problem with it. I have never broken into anyone’s house and so far as I know not a single person that I know, (other than one drug addict), has either. It's just something that you know you don't do.

 

This is a story from when I was much younger but it is still something very much on my mind.

 

I was in a convenience store near my house where the mother of a girl that I dated in high school worked. She was probably 55 or so at the time and a very kind older lady. In comes a thug that pointed a gun in her face and demanded the money. I was near the back of the store and did not even see the start of this. I came up the isle and see him standing there and starting to get really agitated. He starts screaming and pointing that gun down at her as she is now so scared that she is starting to hide behind the counter. He shouts "I swear to god bit ch, if you don't open that drawer and give me the money, I am going to blow your fr ucking head off". At that point I reach under my coat and pull my 357 from its shoulder holster and think for what seemed to be an hour about what I should do. This guy never ever saw me back there and I had a clear shot at his head. He finally got frustrated and pushed the register off the counter. At that point a car pulled into the lot and he ran out the door.

 

To this day I sort of wish that I would have shoot him. That lady never came back to work there again and that same guy robbed several more convenience stores while he did shoot one of the workers before Pittsburgh police caught the guy. They had camera pictures of this guy and everything and he was able to stay on a convenience store robbery spree for a few weeks.

 

Now my life would have been way different, I am sure, if I shot this guy in the side of his head but man I swear I just don't have the tolerance for it.

 

Unateve - I need to schedule a few sessions.

 

Skippy, I can imagine how that moment sticks with you. I am glad for you that you didn't end up pulling the trigger. But, only because I think you're right... it would have jacked you up worse to have done it, than not. I also thing your situation was much more serious... I have no problem with people using deadly force to protect their own or other's lives.

 

I had my apartment broken into a couple of years ago. When it happened, I was beyond pissed. More than the stuff, it felt like I had been violated... like I couldn't relax in my own home anymore. Like my refuge had been violated. That feeling sucks. I thought about buying a gun then, but decided it wasn't a good decision for me personally at the time.

 

I am not going to mourn those two guys that got shot during this break-in, either. But, even though I can understand the guy's motivations, I think it's more dangerous having people running around thinking they can arbitrarily enforce justice, than it is having junkies boosting VCR's (or whatever they steal nowadays) for crack money. Just my two cents.

 

On another note, after an experience like that, counselling might not be a bad idea, if it's still eating at you. It's pretty normal for a situation like that to mindfokk you, with deference to the experts.

[Hugh 0ne]

Skippy, did you have a permit to carry that weapon concealed? I know nothing about PA gun laws, other than the fact that they're relatively liberal compared to the ones in NY, so apologies for my ignorance in advance.

[detlef]

I agree. I was responding to your comment in its context. I stand by my original statement, which I think you agree with as well. I don't plan on asking you if you're coming in to just steal my belongings or rape my wife and kill my children. I'll shoot first and ask questions later.

Certainly. I should also say that my sentiments are less in sympathy for those shot and more in outrage towards the dude who shot them. If you break into someone's house, I could give flying f what happens to you as a result. If you pick the house with the guy who's got a gun and he has any reason at all to think you're there for more than his cash, sucks for you. There was a pretty easy way to avoid getting shot, and that's stay the hell out. I would never argue against the right for someone to protect themselves and their family.

[Skippy]

this is incredible to me...... you carried a .357 in HS? why?

It was a way different time of my life when I used to repo peoples vehicles for local banks. That can be very dangerous and I am sure that anyone that has done that knows that you need to carry a weapon. It was not until after that day that I stopped carrying a weapon at all times. Today I am glad that I don't because I have that thing in me that hates to see other people victimized in anyway.

[untateve]

I hear the train a comin'

It's rolling round the bend

And I ain't seen the sunshine since I don't know when,

I'm stuck in Folsom prison, and time keeps draggin' on

But that train keeps a rollin' on down to San Antone..

When I was just a baby my mama told me. Son,

Always be a good boy, don't ever play with guns.

But I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die

When I hear that whistle blowing, I hang my head and cry..

 

I bet there's rich folks eating in a fancy dining car

They're probably drinkin' coffee and smoking big cigars.

Well I know I had it coming, I know I can't be free

But those people keep a movin'

And that's what tortures me...

 

Well if they freed me from this prison,

If that railroad train was mine

I bet I'd move it on a little farther down the line

Far from Folsom prison, that's where I want to stay

And I'd let that lonesome whistle blow my blues away.....

 

Who knew that me and Hugh One "walk the line" together?

[Hugh 0ne]

Who knew that me and Hugh One "walk the line" together?

 

:highfive:

[Skippy]

Skippy, did you have a permit to carry that weapon concealed? I know nothing about PA gun laws, other than the fact that they're relatively liberal compared to the ones in NY, so apologies for my ignorance in advance.

Yes and I still do. In fact that is the only kind of permit you can get. I mean one to carry concealed and the number of people that have that permit will boggle the mind.

[Hugh 0ne]

Yes and I still do. In fact that is the only kind of permit you can get. I mean one to carry concealed and the number of people that have that permit will boggle the mind.

 

It's almost impossible to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon in NY, unless you're a security guard or business owner that deals with large amounts of cash.

 

ETA: Mental note made never to f*ck with Skippy if I ever meet him.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Hugh 0ne

[Skippy]

It's almost impossible to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon in NY, unless you're a security guard or business owner that deals with large amounts of cash.

 

ETA: Mental note made never to f*ck with Skippy if I ever meet him.

It's really common in PA. At least in Allegheny County. I did own a business at the time. Me and my best friend owned a towing company right out of high school and after some time we were bonded and started a repossession business. That was a good lucrative business but one that tore me apart. I mean on one hand I was taking cars from people that deserved to have them taken away then I would be taking a car from someone that was just way down on their luck and couldn’t make ends meet. When I repoed a car from a woman holding a baby and crying that her husband just started a new job and that was the only way that he could get there I just couldn’t stay in that line of work. I later found out that at the time PNC bank would send me in after certain loans that were just 30 days delinquent. I just couldn’t do it any longer and found my way out of that business.

 

Anyway, if you come down to these parts where we grew up hunting and fishing, there is a very good chance that we may be packing some heat. Like I said, I don't any longer but I still have the permit and if there was a reason, I would.

 

Also, if someone enters my house, my 12 gauge will for sure be used and I will not stop to think about it.

[Mojo20]

Man do I hate to get into a hugh debate over this but I think I am one of the narrow minded people that thinks that people that break into a house to rob anything very much run the risk of being shoot, and I have zero problem with it. I have never broken into anyone’s house and so far as I know not a single person that I know, (other than one drug addict), has either. It's just something that you know you don't do.

 

This is a story from when I was much younger but it is still something very much on my mind.

 

I was in a convenience store near my house where the mother of a girl that I dated in high school worked. She was probably 55 or so at the time and a very kind older lady. In comes a thug that pointed a gun in her face and demanded the money. I was near the back of the store and did not even see the start of this. I came up the isle and see him standing there and starting to get really agitated. He starts screaming and pointing that gun down at her as she is now so scared that she is starting to hide behind the counter. He shouts "I swear to god bit ch, if you don't open that drawer and give me the money, I am going to blow your fr ucking head off". At that point I reach under my coat and pull my 357 from its shoulder holster and think for what seemed to be an hour about what I should do. This guy never ever saw me back there and I had a clear shot at his head. He finally got frustrated and pushed the register off the counter. At that point a car pulled into the lot and he ran out the door.

 

To this day I sort of wish that I would have shoot him. That lady never came back to work there again and that same guy robbed several more convenience stores while he did shoot one of the workers before Pittsburgh police caught the guy. They had camera pictures of this guy and everything and he was able to stay on a convenience store robbery spree for a few weeks.

 

Now my life would have been way different, I am sure, if I shot this guy in the side of his head but man I swear I just don't have the tolerance for it.

 

Unateve - I need to schedule a few sessions.

 

Skippy,

For what it's worth I think you did the right and safe thing.

 

Your story is very Peter Parkeresque. Thank God you don't have an Uncle Ben.

 

"With great power (or a 357) comes great responsibility."

[detlef]

Just out of curiosity. How literally are you guys saying "shoot first, ask questions later" when it comes to an intruder in your house?

 

I'm not asking this out of protection for the robber's life, rather to discuss having to live with the fact that you killed a man. That's got to leave an emotional scar even if it is within your rights.

 

To what extent would you avoid this eventuality? If only to protect your children from the reality that a man was shot in their home as much as protect them from potential physical danger.

[Ursa Majoris]

This is Texas. :highfive:

Relevant part:

 

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they could otherwise be killed. In limited circumstances, people also can use deadly force to protect their neighbor's property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he's out of town.

 

 

Being a burglar in Texas is like playing Russian roulette. Certainly the homo sapiens gene pool is better off after this.

[Ursa Majoris]

Just out of curiosity. How literally are you guys saying "shoot first, ask questions later" when it comes to an intruder in your house?

 

I'm not asking this out of protection for the robber's life, rather to discuss having to live with the fact that you killed a man. That's got to leave an emotional scar even if it is within your rights.

 

To what extent would you avoid this eventuality? If only to protect your children from the reality that a man was shot in their home as much as protect them from potential physical danger.

I would have absolutely no hesitation in killing an intruder by whatever means were to hand.

[Skippy]

Just out of curiosity. How literally are you guys saying "shoot first, ask questions later" when it comes to an intruder in your house?

 

I'm not asking this out of protection for the robber's life, rather to discuss having to live with the fact that you killed a man. That's got to leave an emotional scar even if it is within your rights.

 

To what extent would you avoid this eventuality? If only to protect your children from the reality that a man was shot in their home as much as protect them from potential physical danger.

Let me put it this way:

 

I have ZERO tolerance for an intruder coming into my house uninvited. I would not consider asking questions of him, checking to see if he is armed or anything. My wife, my children, my dog, is in this house that is supposed to be a shelter from the outside. You break in; you probably are not going to get out alive. Could I live with that? I really do think so but I am not 100% sure.

[detlef]

I would have absolutely no hesitation in killing an intruder by whatever means were to hand.

So, to clarify: You hear someone in your house. You grab your gun. You quietly walk down the hallway and see dude going for your stereo. You shoot him on the spot?

[dmarc117]

I would have absolutely no hesitation in killing an intruder by whatever means were to hand.

 

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