Help with Playoff Seedings

[Huddled Masses]

We have a problem with how our league’s playoff seedings should be established.

Our constitution doesn’t directly address how to seed teams but only how to determine which teams qualify for the playoffs(Five teams qualify).

There were 2 clear division winners but the problem arises for the other playoff teams.

There were 4 teams who tied with a record of 7-6. After going through our tiebreaking procedures Team A is awarded the first spot, Team B the second spot and Team C the third spot with Team D being left out. The debate is whether the teams should be seeded by the order that they qualified OR after you have established who the playoff teams are then go back through the original tiebreaking scheme to determine playoff seedings.

The seedings would be completely different so I need some constructive input.

[T-Scorp]

I would suggest that you seed the teams in the order they finished. I will assume the top team gets a bye?

 

The Division winners should be seeded 1 and 2 (just as the NFL does).

 

Team A is the #3 seed, Team B is the #4 Seed and Team C is the #5 seed.

 

I am assuming the seeding would change after you selected playoff teams because one of the division winners has the same or worse record that teams A,B, and C?

 

Better make sure you address it for next year.

[Grits and Shins]

I'd say you defined the seeding here:

 

There were 2 clear division winners but the problem arises for the other playoff teams.

There were 4 teams who tied with a record of 7-6. After going through our tiebreaking procedures Team A is awarded the first spot, Team B the second spot and Team C the third spot with Team D being left out.

 

Two division winners are seeds 1 and 2

Team A is seed 3

Team B is seed 4

Team C is seed 5

 

Obviously the issue is that Team A, B or C has a better record than one of the division winners and they are complaining that they should be the higher seed. Doesn't work that way.

 

In my local I have an 8-5 record and am the 5th seed ... I will be playing the 4th seed this week and his record is 7-6. He's a higher seed than me because he won his division. That's just the way it works.

[Huddled Masses]

I am assuming the seeding would change after you selected playoff teams because one of the division winners has the same or worse record that teams A,B, and C?

 

Better make sure you address it for next year.

 

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The seeding would change for seeds 3-5(Team D would not be in the equation). Division winners wouldn't present a problem since they have better records.

[Hugh-mongus]

I'd say you defined the seeding here:

Two division winners are seeds 1 and 2

Team A is seed 3

Team B is seed 4

Team C is seed 5

 

Obviously the issue is that Team A, B or C has a better record than one of the division winners and they are complaining that they should be the higher seed.  Doesn't work that way.

 

In my local I have an 8-5 record and am the 5th seed ... I will be playing the 4th seed this week and his record is 7-6.  He's a higher seed than me because he won his division.  That's just the way it works.

 

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What he said.

 

Why would you seed and then reseed?

Edited December 9, 2004 by Hugh-mongus

[LegFuJohnson]

I think you should re-seed. Isn't that what the NFL would do?

 

Hypothetical situation....

 

Dallas, Seattle, Arizona and Detroit are all tied for the 5th & 6th seeds.

 

Since there are 4 teams, they wouldn't use H2H, and they go to conference records. So, lets say Seattle has the best conference record, they are in. Then comes Dallas, so they are in.

 

But once they determined the two teams in the playoffs, I'm sure Dallas would be the higher seed, since they beat Seattle H2H.

 

Once you figure out the playoff teams, you should then go back through the tiebreakers yet again.

[Huddled Masses]

I think you should re-seed.  Isn't that what the NFL would do?

 

Hypothetical situation....

 

Dallas, Seattle, Arizona and Detroit are all tied for the 5th & 6th seeds.

 

Since there are 4 teams, they wouldn't use H2H, and they go to conference records.  So, lets say Seattle has the best conference record, they are in.  Then comes Dallas, so they are in.

 

But once they determined the two teams in the playoffs, I'm sure Dallas would be the higher seed, since they beat Seattle H2H.

 

Once you figure out the playoff teams, you should then go back through the tiebreakers yet again.

 

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That's EXACTLY the situation. Is this the way it is handled in the NFL?

[Hugh-mongus]

I think you should re-seed.  Isn't that what the NFL would do?

 

Hypothetical situation....

 

Dallas, Seattle, Arizona and Detroit are all tied for the 5th & 6th seeds.

 

Since there are 4 teams, they wouldn't use H2H, and they go to conference records.  So, lets say Seattle has the best conference record, they are in.  Then comes Dallas, so they are in.

 

But once they determined the two teams in the playoffs, I'm sure Dallas would be the higher seed, since they beat Seattle H2H.

 

Once you figure out the playoff teams, you should then go back through the tiebreakers yet again.

 

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I'm not so sure they would do it that way. I don't know for a fact but it doesn't make sense to me that they would figure out the seeding of those 4 teams and then reseed once they determine the top 2. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[Jrick35]

I think you should re-seed.  Isn't that what the NFL would do?

 

Hypothetical situation....

 

Dallas, Seattle, Arizona and Detroit are all tied for the 5th & 6th seeds.

 

Since there are 4 teams, they wouldn't use H2H, and they go to conference records.  So, lets say Seattle has the best conference record, they are in.  Then comes Dallas, so they are in.

 

But once they determined the two teams in the playoffs, I'm sure Dallas would be the higher seed, since they beat Seattle H2H.

 

Once you figure out the playoff teams, you should then go back through the tiebreakers yet again.

 

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I think you are mistaken about not using the H2H Tie Breaker since there are 4 teams. The NFL would still use H2H Tie Breaker where it applies.

 

Just this week when addressing the NFC Wild Card Race one of the advantages that they said the COwboys have is H2H Tie Breaker advantage over 3 of the Teams in the race as well as a game yet to go against the Giants.

 

The 1st Tie Breaker is always H2H regardless of the # of teams involved. After H2H its Total Points Scored H2H. In the absence of a H2H matchup to fall back on they will skip that step and go directly to the next step. But H2H is always first.

[Huddled Masses]

Tell me if I'm wrong but I think this may have answered my question(check out bolded area). The first team to qualify would be the highest seed and there would be no re-seeding. Link provided for entire tiebreaking scheme.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakers

 

TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM

If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken.

1. If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker.

2. If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps.

 

Two Clubs

1. Head-to-head, if applicable.

2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.

4. Strength of victory.

5. Strength of schedule.

6. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

7. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

8. Best net points in conference games.

9. Best net points in all games.

10. Best net touchdowns in all games.

11. Coin toss.

 

Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.)

1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants.

2. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)

3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.

5. Strength of victory.

6. Strength of schedule.

7. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

8. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

9. Best net points in conference games.

10. Best net points in all games.

11. Best net touchdowns in all games.

12. Coin toss

 

When the first Wild-Card team has been identified, the procedure is repeated to name the second Wild-Card, i.e., eliminate all but the highest-ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. In situations where three or more teams from the same division are involved in the procedure, the original seeding of the teams remains the same for subsequent applications of the tie breaker if the top-ranked team in that division qualifies for a Wild-Card berth.

[Hugh-mongus]

Tell me if I'm wrong but I think this may have answered my question(check out bolded area). The first team to qualify would be the highest seed and there would be no re-seeding. Link provided for entire tiebreaking scheme.

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakers

 

TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM

If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken.

1. If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker.

2. If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps.

 

Two Clubs

1. Head-to-head, if applicable.

2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.

4. Strength of victory.

5. Strength of schedule.

6. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

7. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

8. Best net points in conference games.

9. Best net points in all games.

10. Best net touchdowns in all games.

11. Coin toss.

 

Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.)

1. Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants.

2. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)

3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.

5. Strength of victory.

6. Strength of schedule.

7. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

8. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

9. Best net points in conference games.

10. Best net points in all games.

11. Best net touchdowns in all games.

12. Coin toss

 

When the first Wild-Card team has been identified, the procedure is repeated to name the second Wild-Card, i.e., eliminate all but the highest-ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. In situations where three or more teams from the same division are involved in the procedure, the original seeding of the teams remains the same for subsequent applications of the tie breaker if the top-ranked team in that division qualifies for a Wild-Card berth.

 

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Yes, that's pretty much what I had thought. Seed 'em once and be done with it.

[Grits and Shins]

I think you should re-seed.  Isn't that what the NFL would do?

 

Hypothetical situation....

 

Dallas, Seattle, Arizona and Detroit are all tied for the 5th & 6th seeds.

 

Since there are 4 teams, they wouldn't use H2H, and they go to conference records.  So, lets say Seattle has the best conference record, they are in.  Then comes Dallas, so they are in.

 

But once they determined the two teams in the playoffs, I'm sure Dallas would be the higher seed, since they beat Seattle H2H.

 

Once you figure out the playoff teams, you should then go back through the tiebreakers yet again.

 

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The NFL does NOT reseed.

 

First H2H WOULD be used if it could ... since Dallas didn't play Arizona it doesn't apply in this scenario. However, replace Arizona with Chicago so that the teams tied are Dallas, Chicago, Detroit and Seattle then Dallas would win the tie breaker because they defeated all the other teams.

 

Now back to your scenario ... Seattle would indeed be the higher seed because they won the first tie-breaker.

[Grits and Shins]

So back to the original question:

 

The 2 division winners are clearly the 1 and 2 seeds.

 

Team A, Team B, Team C, and Team D are competing for 2 wildcard spots.

When Team A wins the FIRST tie-breaker he becomes the 3rd seed. When Team B wins the SECOND tie-breaker he becomes the 4th seed.

When Team C wins the THIRD tie-breaker he becomes the 5th seed.

Team D is out.

 

Why would you apply tie-breakers twice?

[I Like Soup]

Grits, I think you seed once and be done with it. Geez, what a bunch of whiners!

[LegFuJohnson]

From that same link:

 

OTHER TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURES

1. Only one club advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied clubs revert to the first step of the applicable division or Wild-Card tie breakers. As an example, if two clubs remain tied in any tie-breaker step after all other clubs have been eliminated, the procedure reverts to step one of the two-club format to determine the winner. When one club wins the tie breaker, all other clubs revert to step 1 of the applicable two-club or three-club format.

2. In comparing division and conference records or records against common opponents among tied teams, the best won-lost-tied percentage is the deciding factor since teams may have played an unequal number of games.

3. To determine home-field priority among division titlists, apply Wild-Card tie breakers.

4. To determine home-field priority for Wild-Card qualifiers, apply division tie breakers (if teams are from the same division) or Wild-Card tie breakers (if teams are from different ivisions).

 

What this (and that bolded sentence prior) seems to be saying, it that you'd take the teams, use the tiebreaker to determine ONE playoff team. Then repeat the process to determine the NEXT playoff team... so in my hypothetical situation, once Seattle got in, they would go to the tiebreaker between the other three teams... to determine the next playoff team (which may or may not be the same thing)... let's still say it was Dallas, for this scenario.

 

But then, once the teams are determined, Note 4 seems to say that they'd go to the tie-breaker between the two teams to determine home-field priority (seeding)

[Easy n Dirty]

The NFL does NOT reseed. 

 

First H2H WOULD be used if it could ... since Dallas didn't play Arizona it doesn't apply in this scenario.  However, replace Arizona with Chicago so that the teams tied are Dallas, Chicago, Detroit and Seattle then Dallas would win the tie breaker because they defeated all the other teams.

 

Now back to your scenario ... Seattle would indeed be the higher seed because they won the first tie-breaker.

 

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Not exactly the subject of this thread, but a small qualification: if Dallas, Detroit, Seattle and Arizona all had the same record and were competing for 2 spots, here's how I think it would work: first, Seattle and Arizona, because they are in the same division, would go up against each other in a tiebreaker. Only one of these two teams would emerge to go up against the remaining teams. (see step 1 under Three or More Clubs in Hugh-Mongus' post). I don't know who beat who, but for sake of example assume that Seattle emerges from that division. Then a 3-team tiebreaker is conducted between Dallas, Detroit and Seattle, I gather Dallas advances because they beat the other 2, so the Cowboys get the first wild card out of this group.

 

Then the process is repeated, which in this instance would mean that Seattle and Detroit battle it out for the remaining spot.

 

Because Seattle has a divisional tiebreaker against Arizona (hypothetically), then Arizona cannot even get out of the division to participate in the wildcard tiebreaker unless and until Seattle gets out of the way (i.e., by being given a wild card slot).