Why Culpepper is not the 2nd best QB in the league

[Bill Swerski]

Mcnabb didn't carry that offense into the playoff's.  The Eagle defense carried that offense.  Maybe you didn't look but the Eagle D ranked 2nd or better in 3 out of the last 4 years.  *** is Mcnabb carrying?  He sure didn't do anything once he got into the playoff's; in 9 postseason games Mcnabb has thrown 11 TD's and 8 INT's.  In 5 of those games he threw less than 200 yards culminating in his masterpiece last year with 100 yards passing and 3 INT's.  Yeah he's been doing something alright.

 

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Oh, right, I forgot. Teams with defense don't need a difference-maker at QB to win. Just ask Miami, Buffalo, and Jacksonville.

 

You also forget that McNabb was the one who beat Green Bay last year with that impossible 4th-and-26th completion. But I suppose that A.J. Feeley could've competed that pass as well, right?

 

Unimpressive. A lot of QB's can say that if you want to go with the "full season"

 

Trent Green

Aaron Brooks

Drew Bledsoe

Jeff Garcia

 

 

Yet, those guys all had stud WRs (or TEs) on their team (Gonzo, Horn, Moulds, and Owens, respectively). Anyone who can throw 20-30 TDs to the likes of Todd Pinkston, Freddie Mitchell, L.J. Smith, and Chad Lewis WITHOUT a dominant RB deserves a gold star.

 

You also might want to remember that Indy's D in 2002 was ranked 8th in points given up, in 2003 they were 20th and this year they were 17th.  Those are all much better numbers than what Minnesota's defense has done............

 

Right, Indy really had to struggle against that fourth-place schedule in '02 with a defense that gave up 41 points to the Jets in the playoffs.

 

So what's your excuse for all of the other years that Indy has had a Minnesota-like defense and STILL made the playoffs?

 

So, if Manning and Favre can routinely get into the playoffs with little support from their defenses, why can't Culpepper? He's had the most dominant WR in the NFL on his squad for his entire career, plus two years of Cris Carter and a bunch of very productive backs (R. Smith, Bennett, O. Smith). And let's not forget an O-line containing studs such as Steussie, Stringer, Birk, and McKinnie over the years. What's Daunte's excuse?

[Furd]

I keep saying this but nobody believes me.  Culpepper is not only not a great QB, he's a TERRIBLE QB.  I don't know of any QB with a better supporting cast that's managed to eff it up so consistently.

 

Peace

policy

 

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If Culpepper is a terrible QB, what does that make Harrington?

[LiL10(s)ArEaJoKe]

Elite QBs are: Elway, Marino, Kelly, Montana, Unitas, Young, Sims, Fouts, Baugh, Staubach, Starr, etc and Manning!!!!!! the others are not quite to an elite staus yet, JMO, but C-pep and McNabb are well on their way.....

[phenom]

Oh, right, I forgot.  Teams with defense don't need a difference-maker at QB to win.  Just ask Miami, Buffalo, and Jacksonville. 

 

So what's your excuse for all of the other years that Indy has had a Minnesota-like defense and STILL made the playoffs?

 

What's Daunte's excuse?

 

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So does a difference maker make you an elite QB? There are plenty of difference makers in the league but it doesn't make them an elite QB. Roethlisberger is the difference between a 15-1 team and a 6-10 team. Does that make him elite. Drew Brees and Michael Vick lead the two teams in the playoffs with the biggest turnarounds. Are they elite QB's? The question is Daunte an elite QB and if not who is better and no one can show a winning argument.

 

Daunte has taken his team just as far as Mcnabb and Manning have. Blowouts in the championship game. None of those 3 have shown they are any more of a difference maker when it counts. At least let's see one of the get to a Super Bowl. Regular season is just that: REGULAR, NOTHING SPECIAL.

 

 

By the way how did Indy end up with a last place schedule when they had Manning an elite QB?.............

[policyvote]

This is ridiculous.  Culpepper has 41 total TDs this year.  If you think that's a TERRIBLE QB, you might want to rethink how you evaluate QBs.  Culpepper has not been the problem for Minny.  Their defense has been abysmal for many years.  Their coaching has taken a huge dive since Denny left.  That's why they've had troubles, not Culpepper.

 

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It's not just the defense. These Vikes are NOT the 2000 Rams, scoring 40-50 points a game and only winning by 7. Several times this year, the Vikes (and C-Pep) have gone into a game flat, and laid an egg against much less talented competition.

 

This week, the Vikings, with their season on the line, go to FedEx field, put up a measley 18 points, and lose. This is not a juggernaut offense being let down by a terrible D. This is an offense that has big-play capability, but more often than not struggles to move the chains (even against mediocre defense). Moreover, Culpepper has a knack for making the big mistake that kills them late. This is not something that's happened since Tice took over, Culpepper did the same stuff with Denny on the sidelines--it was just more excusable then because Culpepper was still a young QB. Now he's a seven-year vet that gets worshipped as an elite QB, but somehow the Vikes never seems to score when they needs points, despite having one of the most talented offenses in football year after year.

 

Peace

policy

[Bill Swerski]

It's not just the defense.  These Vikes are NOT the 2000 Rams, scoring 40-50 points a game and only winning by 7.  Several times this year, the Vikes (and C-Pep) have gone into a game flat, and laid an egg against much less talented competition.

 

This week, the Vikings, with their season on the line, go to FedEx field, put up a measley 18 points, and lose.  This is not a juggernaut offense being let down by a terrible D.  This is an offense that has big-play capability, but more often than not struggles to move the chains (even against mediocre defense).  Moreover, Culpepper has a knack for making the big mistake that kills them late.  This is not something that's happened since Tice took over, Culpepper did the same stuff with Denny on the sidelines--it was just more excusable then because Culpepper was still a young QB.  Now he's a seven-year vet that gets worshipped as an elite QB, but somehow the Vikes never seems to score when they needs points, despite having one of the most talented offenses in football year after year.

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Culpepper's 33 career fumbles certainly aren't helping him become an "elite" QB.

[Fatman]

As a FF QB you could argue that he has been the best at his position since 2000.  It's taken Manning to have the best year of all time for him to maintain with Culpepper.

 

Culpepper has 127 passing TD's, 28 rushing TD's, 18,299 yards passing and 2,305 rushing

Manning has 164 passing TD's,  7 TD's rushing, 21,562 yards passing and 485 yards rushing

This is all in 7 less games than Manning has played over the same period.  These 2 QB's are far and away above any of the other QB's even being discussed.

Besides fantasy Culpepper's passer rating is 112.2 which would break Steve Youngs record over a season if not for Manning.  Remember he is doing this with a gimpy Moss who missed 6 games this year IIRC.  His RB's haven't exactly been the model of consistency either, Culpepper is the second leading rusher on the team with less than 400 yards.

I sure don't put Mcnabb in the elite class.  Leading your team to 3 straight NFC championship losses isn't impressive.  Neither is everyone jumping off the Philly bandwagon when T.O. goes down.  I guess you see who really makes that offense go.

It's not Daunte's fault that the Viking's D has been so bad

 

Vikings D ranking in points given up

 

2001 26th out of 31

2002 30th out of 32

2003 23rd out of 32

2004 25th out of 32

Compare that to Philly's D and points given up

 

2001  2nd out 31

2002  2nd out 32

2003  7th out of 32

2004  1st out of 32

Come on ...........

 

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Actually, Pittsburgh was #1 in total and scoring defense this year.

[pedroz13]

His stats may make him look like it, but here are the first 2 plays of the Vikings drive with 1:58 left down by 11 on their own 20:

 

1 yard to TE who can't get out of bounds

8 yards to RB in the middle of the field

1:02 left.  56 seconds for 9 yards!

 

1 yard to Wiggins?  Throw it away, you wasted 30 seconds for 1 yard.  A great QB does not make plays like that.  Yeah 11 points in under 2:00 isn't likely, but when you make decisions like that, it's impossible.  Unbelievable physical ability, but doesn't have it upstairs, at least not yet.  Will he ever?

 

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That drive was terrible , yes. Daunte has shown me this year that he is capable of big drives when they count. It is not his fault that they score and then the D can't stop the other team. I realize that is not the case against Washington yesterday , but that has been the case most of the year. Daunte has actually impressed me this year , I think he is capable of winning big games. The D on the other hand , has to hold up to make this true , or else make sure he scores with no time on the clock whatsoever. And I mean NO TIME ....cause teams have scored on them in the 4th in under 50 seconds.

[policyvote]

If Culpepper is a terrible QB, what does that make Harrington?

 

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Culpepper is a six-year vet who sat his whole first year, has always had as good of a WR corps as any QB can ask for, has always had an effective ground game, and has always had an OL that was at least very good and sometimes great. Moreover, he has a state full of adoring fans who seem to think he can do no wrong. He puts up great numbers, especially when it doesn't count. But he can never win a big game, and--should the Vikings ever manage to actually make the playoffs, he's terrible in the playoffs.

 

Harrington is a third-year QB who was immediately thrown into the fire in a terrible situation, has never had a legitmate, healthy NFL wide reciever to throw to for more than one or two games in a row, until the past few games has never had a legitimate ground game to rely on, and has always had an OL that vacillates between mediocre and terrible. Moreover, he has a state full of fair-weather fans who boo him mercilessly every time he throws an incomplete pass. He's shown flashes of both good and bad, but his stats have taken a big jump up this year.

 

I am still undecided on Harrington, but I think he may have a Drew Brees-like turnaround next year. If Roy Williams returns to pre-injury form, Charles Rogers plays 16 games, the OL doesn't take a step backward, and some sort of halfway decent TE enters the fold, this could be a very very dangerous offense. Right now, Culpepper is obviously better than Harrington, but swap situations and ages and you'd have a different story.

 

Peace

policy

[Hugh 0ne]

Culpepper is a six-year vet who sat his whole first year, has always had as good of a WR corps as any QB can ask for, has always had an effective ground game, and has always had an OL that was at least very good and sometimes great.  Moreover, he has a state full of adoring fans who seem to think he can do no wrong.  He puts up great numbers, especially when it doesn't count.  But he can never win a big game, and--should the Vikings ever manage to actually make the playoffs, he's terrible in the playoffs.

 

Harrington is a third-year QB who was immediately thrown into the fire in a terrible situation, has never had a legitmate, healthy NFL wide reciever to throw to for more than one or two games in a row, until the past few games has never had a legitimate ground game to rely on, and has always had an OL that vacillates between mediocre and terrible.  Moreover, he has a state full of fair-weather fans who boo him mercilessly every time he throws an incomplete pass.  He's shown flashes of both good and bad, but his stats have taken a big jump up this year.

 

I am still undecided on Harrington, but I think he may have a Drew Brees-like turnaround next year.  If Roy Williams returns to pre-injury form, Charles Rogers plays 16 games, the OL doesn't take a step backward, and some sort of halfway decent TE enters the fold, this could be a very very dangerous offense.  Right now, Culpepper is obviously better than Harrington, but swap situations and ages and you'd have a different story.

 

Peace

policy

 

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There sure are a lot of "ifs" for Harrington to be good and a lot of excuses as to why he's not.

 

You never responded to me in the bust thread when we were discussing this topic, so I'll bring it up again. You enjoyingly blame the Vikes woes on a QB that has put up great stats throughout his career. You say he can't win the big game, so you must think Manning is overrated too because stats don't matter, right? Have you ever thought about the defenses that both Denny Green and Mike Tice have put on the field during Cpep's tenure? Blaming the Vikes lack of success on Cpep is a joke. Comparing him to Harrington is a bigger one.

[Furd]

Randy Moss is a given. But Chris Carter retired after 2001.

 

So lets look at this elite WR corps since then:

 

Nate Burleson

Marcus Robinson

D'Wayne Bates

Kelly Campbell

Derrick Anderson

 

Kind of makes you shiver.

 

 

And the vaunted Viking rushers since Robert Smith retired in 2000:

 

Michael Bennett

Onterrio Smith

Moe Williams

Mewelde Moore

 

Emmitt Smith is quaking.

 

Vikings OL in the Probowl:

 

Matt Birk 2001

Matt Birk 2003

 

Korey Stringer died in 2001

Todd Steussie left in 2000

Randall McDaniel and Jeff Christy left the year before

 

Can't expect Culpepper to do much with the devestation to the O line over the years, can we?

 

With the exception of Moss, Culpepper hasn't had all that much talent to work with. More than Harrington, but not as much as people often think.

 

Say all you want about Culpepper not winning the big games, but he is a weapon. Other teams have to account for him. He makes the other offensive players better.

 

Harrington's been out for 3 years now. No one fears him. No team goes out of its way to account for him. He certainly doesn't make anyone better. All I hear is Joey needs this and Joey needs that. Its just not fair to Joey. He's shown flashes or competence, but certainly nothing to suggest that he'll be more than an average NFL QB.

 

His teammates are with him day in and day out. They want McMahon to have a shot. Why is that?

Edited January 4, 2005 by Furd

[bigsnell]

Typical, everyone bashing Culpepper. All he does is put up very good numbers year in and year out. Yes, he did have the fumbling problems, but it looks like he has overcome them. I can think of at least 10 teams who would love to have Culpepper as their starting QB. I am also sick of hearing that Peyton Manning is an elite QB. He has put up numbers also, but IMO alot of his touchdowns this year are because whether he was admitting it or not, he was calling his own number alot, looking for the record, but that is my opinion.

[policyvote]

There sure are a lot of "ifs" for Harrington to be good and a lot of excuses as to why he's not.

 

Congratulations! You successfully read my post, where I outline the conditions necessary for him to succeed, while pointing out that he has not yet proven anything and I'm undecided as to whether or not he actually will succeed.

 

You never responded to me in the bust thread when we were discussing this topic, so I'll bring it up again. You enjoyingly blame the Vikes woes on a QB that has put up great stats throughout his career. You say he can't win the big game, so you must think Manning is overrated too because stats don't matter, right?

 

Nope. I think Culpepper is overrated because even though he puts up great stats, he makes critical mistakes that lead directly to his team's defeat. I think that if Manning and the Colts don't do something this year, you really have to wonder if the "all offense, no defense" formula can succeed. However, C-pep is not Manning, and the Vikes' offense is not the Colts' offense. As I keep saying, the Vikes are not scoring 40 points a game (even though they have the physical talent to do so). Losing 21-18 to the Redskins, with the season on the line?

 

Have you ever thought about the defenses that both Denny Green and Mike Tice have put on the field during Cpep's tenure?

 

YES, TRY READING ANY OF MY POSTS ON THIS THREAD

 

Blaming the Vikes lack of success on Cpep is a joke. Comparing him to Harrington is a bigger one.

 

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I didn't compare him to Harrington; every yahoo who read my first post replied with "Culpepper rules, Harrington drools, what do you have to say about that???" so I responded.

 

Peace

policy

Edited January 4, 2005 by policyvote

[Hugh 0ne]

Congratulations!  You successfully read my post, where I outline the conditions necessary for him to succeed, while pointing out that he has not yet proven anything and I'm undecided as to whether or not he actually will succeed.

 

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Yes, not only did I read it, but I understood that you basically made some excuses, made some points for possible success, and then took no stance. See, me smart. Me real smart.

 

Losing 21-18 to the Redskins, with the season on the line?

 

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An indoor team playing outdoors on the road against one of the best defenses in the league. It's not like they lost to the lowly Cardinals or something. Wait.. :doah:

 

 

Peace

 

Hugh One

[Squeegiebo]

YES, TRY READING ANY OF MY POSTS ON THIS THREAD

 

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That hurt my eyes.

[Randall]

That hurt my eyes. 

 

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I like your sigline. People who believe they are doing God's work and are not are very dangerous. The Bible can be used to justify almost any act. All you have to do is look at history to see what has been done in God's name.

 

I want govt and religion to be separate.

[WaterMan]

Wow we were talking about Culpepper being the MVP, and etc before Manning's chase for the TD record came into clear focus.(and Moss being hurt)

Edited January 4, 2005 by WaterMan

[Guest Sores]

Elite QBs are: Elway, Marino, Kelly, Montana, Unitas, Young, Sims, Fouts, Baugh, Staubach, Starr,  etc and Manning!!!!!! the others are not quite to an elite staus yet, JMO, but C-pep and McNabb are well on their way.....

 

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Where is Favre on your list???

[Hugh 0ne]

Where is Favre on your list???

 

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Favre sucks ass.

 

Except as my PnHII fantasy QB.

[policyvote]

Yes, not only did I read it, but I understood that you basically made some excuses, made some points for possible success, and then took no stance. See, me smart. Me real smart.

 

Okay, let me take a stance: Joey Harrington is a very talented QB who has been put in a very bad situation. He is very intelligent, has an arm, throws a gorgeous deep ball, get get yards with his legs when he has to, and--when he's given time to throw--has great accuracy. Given the right supporting cast he has the tools to be a star in this league. For the record, Reggie Swinton, David Kircus, and Scotty Vines do not "the right supporting cast" make.

 

The lack of early success, combined with the learning curve, combined with the moronic boo-birds has created a very tough mental situation for him. Mooch's recent comments seem to indicate that he's realize that the WCO he fine-tuned under Jeff Garcia is not the WCO that Joey Harrington is going to best be able to run.

 

Before you again accuse me of John Kerrying, let me point out that it's my personal belief that a QB's success is determined 10% by his physical tools, 40% by his mental game, and 50% by the situation around him. If you're a QB on an active NFL roster, you have the physical tools to be a starter . . . it's the mental skills and supporting cast that separates the pine-riders from the Pro Bowlers.

 

Look at Quincy Carter and Chad Pennington in New York. Carter is bigger, stronger, much faster, a much better athlete, a MUCH better thrower, and isn't half the QB that Pennington is. On the other side, look at Culpepper and Jeff George and Randall Cunningham and Todd Bouman and Gus Frerotte and every other stiff they throw under center in Minnesota--heavy on stats, light on winning when it counts. Why? Because two quick TDs from midfield will make your stats look great, but if your team only scores 17 points in four quarters, you aren't moving the offense very well.

 

Peace

policy

Edited January 4, 2005 by policyvote

[Hugh 0ne]

Okay, let me take a stance:  Joey Harrington is a very talented QB who has been put in a very bad situation.  He has had absolutely zero  He is very intelligent, has an arm, throws a gorgeous deep ball, get get yards with his legs when he has to, and--when he's given time to throw--has great accuracy.  Given the right supporting cast he has the tools to be a star in this league.  For the record, Reggie Swinton, David Kircus, and Scotty Vines do not "the right supporting cast" make.

 

The lack of early success, combined with the learning curve, combined with the moronic boo-birds has created a very tough mental situation for him.  Mooch's recent comments seem to indicate that he's realize that the WCO he fine-tuned under Jeff Garcia is not the WCO that Joey Harrington is going to best be able to run.

 

Before you again accuse me of John Kerrying, let me point out that it's my personal belief that a QB's success is determined 10% by his physical tools, 40% by his mental game, and 50% by the situation around him.  If you're a QB on an active NFL roster, you have the physical tools to be a starter . . . it's the mental skills and supporting cast that separates the pine-riders from the Pro Bowlers. 

 

Look at Quincy Carter and Chad Pennington in New York.  Carter is bigger, stronger, much faster, a much better athlete, a MUCH better thrower, and isn't half the QB that Pennington is.  On the other side, look at Culpepper and Jeff George and Randall Cunningham and Todd Bouman and Gus Frerotte and every other stiff they throw under center in Minnesota--heavy on stats, light on winning when it counts.  Why?  Because two quick TDs from midfield will make your stats look great, but if your team only scores 17 points in four quarters, you aren't moving the offense very well.

 

Peace

policy

 

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Believe me, my comments weren't personal, and I hope you didn't take them that way. And you make several good and valid points, and your stance is now clearer. However, this is about you calling Culpepper overrated, and me disagreeing. You bring Joey Harrington into the picture, even if it's not a direct comparison, it seems like it based on the discussion at hand. The thing I find amusing, is that you give many reasons for Harrington's lack of success, and I hate to tell you, but almost every single one applies to Cpep. OK, he got a year to learn where Harrington didn't. But, imo, your OL stories and WR stories and even RB stories don't hold water, because CPep was not given a great team either. He made them dynamic and explosive, because, outside of Moss, what other offensive studs, OL included, do they have.

 

Bottom line: I think Culpepper is a very good QB. Not great. He's not quite smart enough to be great as his decision making isn't perfect and he does fumble a lot, but there are not many (maybe 1 or 2) QB's that could have done any better behind center in Minnesota than Cpep did, and to call him overrated is ludicrous. IMO.

 

That's all. We can argue this until we're blue in the face. The jury is still out on Harrington, agreed. But let's not pretend Cpep was handed a silver platter, because that's just not accurate. And to blame Cpep for Minnesota not winning the big game is a joke as well in my opinion.

[Azazello1313]

Okay, let me take a stance:  Joey Harrington is a very talented QB who has been put in a very bad situation.  blahblahblah

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but culpepper is terrible and a liability to his team. too f'n much. daunte culpepper is the f'n man. he takes big sh*ts that can play qb better than harrington.

 

manning is sort of in a class of his own right now, but mcnabb and culpepper are next and those 3 QBs are sort of head and shoulders above everyone else. they're the guys that make D-coordinators wake up with nightmares.

[policyvote]

Believe me, my comments weren't personal, and I hope you didn't take them that way. And you make several good and valid points, and your stance is now clearer. However, this is about you calling Culpepper overrated, and me disagreeing. You bring Joey Harrington into the picture, even if it's not a direct comparison, it seems

like it based on the discussion at hand.

 

Once again, I didn't bring Harrington into the discussion, others did. I called out Culpepper, and everyone who knows I'm a huge Lions fan countered with "Culpepper rules, it's Harrington who sucks!" I'm merely repsonding.

 

The thing I find amusing, is that you give many reasons for Harrington's lack of success, and I hate to tell you, but almost every single one applies to Cpep. OK, he got a year to learn where Harrington didn't. But, imo, your OL stories and WR stories and even RB stories don't hold water, because CPep was not given a great team either. He made them dynamic and explosive, because, outside of Moss, what other offensive studs, OL included, do they have.

 

Bullpuckey. Randall Cunningham and Jeff George each lit up the league with the EXACT same talent. Moss, Cris Carter (who, it's well known, helped C-Pep make reads at the line), Robert Smith, Todd Stuessie, Matt Birk, all those guys were there from the start.

 

Bottom line: I think Culpepper is a very good QB. Not great. He's not quite smart enough to be great as his decision making isn't perfect and he does fumble a lot, but there are not many (maybe 1 or 2) QB's that could have done any better behind center in Minnesota than Cpep did, and to call him overrated is ludicrous. IMO.

 

Again, 67-year-old Randall Cunningham had an MVP season with the same talent, and Jeff George did just as well, again with the exact same talent. So, unless those two are your two elite standard bearers of quarterbacking, you're wrong.

 

That's all. We can argue this until we're blue in the face. The jury is still out on Harrington, agreed. But let's not pretend Cpep was handed a silver platter, because that's just not accurate.

 

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Yes, it is.

 

Peace

policy

[Squeegiebo]

The jury is still out on Harrington

 

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Jury is in - Padraig is a darn good golfer.

 

[WaterMan]

I've seen 2 or 3 games with Harrington this season. I don't know if it's a big coincidence, but he never threw down field. The closest he came was a medium slant to someone, I think Tai Streets.(?) Has he been injured alot and I just happened to see those games?