Andrew Jones as NL-MVP? Is American that dumb?

[Guest Cherni]

Two points--the Cardinals won 100 games to the Braves 90 games even though both teams won their division. Are you saying that those extra 10 wins don't matter at all? (It seems that that is what you are implying).

 

But to get to the main point about how much a player has contributed to his team's wins, we can actually go to the statistic called "win shares" that was developed for pretty much exactly this purpose.

 

Here are the win-shares for 2005:

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshares/index.php

 

(hint: If at first you don't see Andruw Jones on the list it means you haven't scrolled far enough)

 

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That doesn't make sense. You can't compare wins in 2 diff. divisions. The NL East was one if not the toughest in all of baseball. Everyone was over 500.

[Guest Cherni]

I scrolled down and saw...

 

David Eckstein ranked over Chris Carpenter

Paul Konerko (another high-homer, low-OBP guy) ranked over Mark Buehrle, Tad Iguchi, and Scott Podsednik

Gary Sheffield ranked over Mariano Rivera

 

The "win shares" statistic is a great example of why MVPs are awared by people, rather than computers.  It also explains the colossal failure of the BCS.

 

What's your beef with Andruw Jones?  Did he bonk your wife or something? 

 

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Sounds like he must have.

[wiegie]

He also had a solid group of veterans to play with.

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And by solid group of veterans you mean: John Rodgriguez, Yadier Molina, Hector Luna, So Taguchi, Abraham Nunez, Scott Seabol, etc. ? ? ?

 

I've already given you the team batting averages without including Pujols and Jones and you know that Jones had runners in scoring position 40+ times more than Pujols--so it is clear that Jones had more to work with than Pujols.

 

But yet you refuse to let reality blind you. Good job!

Edited October 17, 2005 by wiegie

[Chavez]

That HR by Pujols in game 5 of the NLCS (yes, I know you're not supposed to count post-season perf in voting) is a perfect example to me of why he should be MVP - big time player + big time game = big time performance

[wiegie]

RE: The great supporting cast that Albert supposedly had around him during the entire year---the post season wasn't too dissimiliar and here are STL's post-season batting stats:

 

Albert Pujols STL------.375

Yadier Molina STL-----.286

David Eckstein STL---.273

Jim Edmonds STL-----.267

Reggie Sanders STL--.233

Mark Grudzielanek----.200

Larry Walker STL------.107

[Bill Swerski]

I can't believe you're still agruing about this crap.

 

Would somebody PLEASE kill this stupid thread???

[Chavez]

I can't believe you're still agruing about this crap. 

 

Would somebody PLEASE kill this stupid thread??? 

 

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No, we're going to continue to make you read it.

[wiegie]

Analogy to consider for today:

 

Albert Pujols is to Brad Lidge what Pete Rose was to Ray Fosse.

 

Discuss.

[wiegie]

Analogy to consider for today:

 

Albert Pujols is to Brad Lidge what Pete Rose was to Ray Fosse.

 

Discuss.

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[Skrappy1]

Analogy to consider for today:

 

Albert Pujols is to Brad Lidge what Pete Rose was to Ray Fosse.

 

Discuss.

 

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Nah. Lidge is young enough and good enough to bounce back, assuming that he is able to keep his health. Besides, perhaps a better analogy would have been Joe Carter to Mitch Williams? Wild Thing played for 3 more years after Carter's HR, but he clearly was nowhere near the same pitcher after it.

[Guest Cherni]

Now that Andruw has won the Gold Glove, does that make a difference?

[LegFuJohnson]

Not at all, why would it?

 

Votes were already cast.

 

(And the fact that he'd win a Gold Glove was probably a given, anyway)

[wiegie]

for a second I thought these last two posts were going to be mentioning the fact that the major league baseball players themselves voted Andruw Jones as:

 

Player of the Year

&

National League's Outstanding Player

 

[Chavez]

Now that Andruw has won the Gold Glove, does that make a difference?

 

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The Gold Glove is a joke IMO.

 

Of course, I've come to that conclusion due to the fact that outstanding OF Geoff Jenkins has never won one.

[Coltsfan183288]

ANDRUW JONES WAS OFF THE HOOK..HE HAS THE BEST NUMBERS AND SHOULD WIN IT.

[Skrappy1]

ANDRUW JONES...HE HAS THE BEST NUMBERS AND SHOULD WIN IT.

 

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Jones has the best numbers? Are you sure?

 

Pujols: .330 AVG / .430 OBP / .609 SLG / 1.039 OPS / 16 SB / 38 2B / 129 Runs

Jones: .263 AVG / .347 OBP / .575 SLG / .922 OPS / 5 SB / 24 2B / 95 Runs

 

Pujols' numbers are actually much better than Jones' in almost every category that really matters. Jones had 9 more RBI than Pujols (128 to 117) and 10 more HR (51 to 41), but I think Pujols' far superior numbers in all the other categories more than makes up for those differentials. Jones had a fine season, but it would be a travesty for him to beat out Pujols for the MVP this year.

Edited November 15, 2005 by Skrappy1

[Doc Holliday]

Well, that may explain a few things... 

 

  But he also hit 5 more homers and drove in 11 more runs than Pujuols.  Pujols is definitely the better player and clearly put up better overall stats this season (especially OBP), but the Cards have about 7 good-to-great pitchers, while the Braves only have two.  Right or wrong, Jones deserves serious consideration because of the situation he was in.  Pujols could've hit .280 with 30 homers and 80 RBIs and the Cards probably still would've won their division.  On the other hand, the pitching-depleted Braves needed someone like Jones to step up and drive in a bunch of runs to squeak (2 games) past Philly.

 

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1.HR's and RBI's are the 2 most overrated stats in baseball.

 

now OBP is IMO the best stat there is to judge a player by. (not that it is perfect because no 1 stat sums up a player). And when you play in a lineup like Jones is in you should get lots of intentional walks. Pujols was intentionally walked 27 times, even though there was always a good hitter right behind him. Jones was walked 13 times with noone to protect him. teams were obviously much more scared of Pujols than Jones. that right there tells me all I need to know as far as hitting is concerned. a 347 OBP is a joke for a MVP to hold.

 

Now the place where I do give Jones credit is in the field. that is where he makes up alot of ground on Pujols. but it is not enough ground.

 

2. I know the Braves had no dominating pitcher this year but overall they had the 5th best ERA in the national league. they had pitching.

 

3.Jones had a fine year but IMO it is a joke that he was named MVP.

[Doc Holliday]

Sammy Sosa swung for the fences and struck out with RISP all the time, yet that doesn't mean that he didn't deserve the MVP in '98.  He struck out an astronomical 171 times that year (with only 73 BB).

Any team with THAT much pitching could win 90 games, which would've still put them in first place.  The White Sox, who didn't have a single .300 hitter, scored 64 less runs than the Cards, yet still managed to win 99.  Anaheim scored 44 fewer runs, and they won 95 games.

 

Pujols is a great player, but the Cards didn't win 100 games because of him.  They won because of their pitching...

 

 

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Sosa should not of been MVP in 1998, both McGwire and Bonds had better seasons.That being said I can at least see why Sosa was named that year, and I can understand a argement someone would make over him being MVP that year. but I do not even see a arguement for Jones winning MVP.

 

As far as the pitching thing goes. both the Braves and the Cardinals made it as far as they did with Pitching. Pitching IS the game.

 

IMO if you combined the Cardinals and the Braves teams the best center fielder on the team would be Jim Edmonds.

[Doc Holliday]

you know what i think is an underlying factor in these instances where a clearly inferior player wins MVP over a clearly superior player?  i think people have a feeling that the pujols's and the bonds either already have their accolades or will get them in the future...and they look at the kents and joneses and say, this is an absolute career year for these guys, they'll never be in consideration again.  and i think that weighs into peoples' thinking, either overtly or subliminally.  and it comes out cloaked in these incredibly stupid arguments like giving it to jones over pujols because pujols is on a team with better pitching.

 

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I agree with everything you say here.

 

My only difference is that IMO Kent deserved consideration and Jones does not.

[wiegie]

Pujols was intentionally walked 27 times, even though there was always a good hitter right behind him. Jones was walked 13 times with noone to protect him.

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Actually, we could check the numbers, but I'm guessing that the hitters behind Jones actually offered better protection than what Pujols had behind him. The Cardinals hitters were nowhere near what they were the year before (i.e. Rolen, Walker, Edmunds, & Sanders)

[GOAT]

THAT IS SO FUNNY J KENT OVER B BONDS...

 

I was amazed from that season on...lol..

[Selly]

Actually, we could check the numbers, but I'm guessing that the hitters behind Jones actually offered better protection than what Pujols had behind him.  The Cardinals hitters were nowhere near what they were the year before (i.e. Rolen, Walker, Edmunds, & Sanders)

 

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Actually Wiegie, for most of the year 'Druw had the "feared" tandem of Adam LaRoche and Johnny Estrada hitting behind him. The end of the season he had Franceour there, so he was protected then.

 

Laroche .259 20HR 78RBI

Estrada .261 4HR 39RBI

[wiegie]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2224756

 

Updated: Nov. 15, 2005, 2:14 PM ET

Pujols named NL MVP

 

Each of the past four seasons, Albert Pujols has taken a backseat to Barry Bonds in the NL MVP voting. Not this year.

 

NL MVP Voting

Player 1st 2nd 3rd Points

Albert Pujols, Cardinals  18  14  0  378 

Andruw Jones, Braves  13  17  2  351 

Derrek Lee, Cubs  1  1  30  263 

Morgan Ensberg, Astros          160 

 

Albert Pujols was named NL MVP for the first time in his brilliant young career Tuesday, beating out the Braves' Andruw Jones and the Cubs' Derrek Lee for the award.

 

The St. Louis Cardinals first baseman received 18 first-place votes and 14 seconds for 378 points in balloting by the Baseball Writers' Association of America. Jones, the Atlanta Braves center fielder, got 13 first-place votes, 17 seconds and two thirds for 351 points.

 

The 25-year-old Pujols ranked in the top three in the NL in homers (41), RBI (117) and batting average (.330) and led the majors in runs (129) for the third season in a row.

 

The Cardinals had to deal with injuries to third baseman Scott Rolen and corner outfielders Larry Walker and Reggie Sanders, but still got the usual dominant play from their slugging first baseman to finish with the majors' best record.

 

Pujols has finished in the top four in MVP voting by the Baseball Writers Association of America in each of the last four campaigns, when the award went to Bonds.

 

Bonds is not a candidate for his fifth straight award after missing virtually the entire season with a knee injury.

[I Like Soup]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2224756

 

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[Azazello1313]

american is not that dumb!